M30 Rear Crankshaft Seal Problem

[CroughtonE32]

This is a crazy thing but I'm still looking for some answers. Maybe some feedback. I had a few oil leaks a while back and they were taken care of. The Duct gasket was replaced (not an easy task with the cylinder head in place).....oil pan gasket replaced.....upper timing chain cover gaskets replaced and the killer was the rear crankshaft seal. For that of course the transmission had to come out. It was done, and an OEM seal was put in place. All done, only three days later I had oil on the garage floor. I waited a few weeks and when my guy had time I brought it back and left the car. He said that the crankshaft seal (new) had failed and he was replacing it again. Everything was good for about four days and then oil again. Now this mechanic worked for Vista BMW for 25 years and is best friends with my guy from Vista who has taken care of my E32 since new. He has the best reputation down here and it would not be right to mention any names, if I did lots of people here would know him and swear by his work. My guy is getting a little too old to do this sort of work, so he goes with me to his friend's shop that he opened after he retired from BMW. So now that the new crankshaft seal has failed twice, we need to do a little soul searching. After checking Real OEM and looking at every part in the area, I realized nobody had spoken of the "shim"....number 3 in the picture. Neither of my mechanics remember replacing this part when doing the crankshaft seal. But it sure makes more sense that this Shim was missing, rather than two brand new BMW crankshaft seals failing immediately. So today I drove down to the shop (I have his 740 to use while he has my car.....that's the kind of guy he is) and was about to show him on paper what I had found. Even Pelican states what the shim does and that it should be replaced whenever the rear seal is replaced. He had already realized the problem before I got there and had ordered numbers 1, 2, 3 and 6. The cover, the gasket, the shim and the seal. He decided to do the oil pan gasket again worried that the corner would leak after doing this job. I got a good look at my crankshaft today for the first time, really clean. The engine is about three inches off of the motor mounts held with chains, up on the lift with my transmission and all the parts he's replacing on the floor. Even the flywheel was out. This is not something that's costing me very much, just some new parts and I should have everything back soon. BMW overnighted everything to him so the parts will be in tomorrow. Just for the hell of it I called my guy at BavAuto to discuss the situation with him. He read from his notes that this shim should always be replaced with the seal. His notes said it is installed at the factory and supposed to last the life of the car just as the seal should. I guess they never thought of those of us with high mileage E32's. He also said BMW says that over the years a groove will form from the shim and if the rear crankshaft seal is set in without the shim.....it's bound to leak. I'm pretty sure this will fix things.......just wondering if any of you have replaced this seal on the E32 M30 and if so does this Shim sound familiar. I know, I'll never forget it.

Jeff

[shogun]

Have not done it, but if there is a worn shaft, talk to your expert about speedy-sleeves.The SKF Speedi-Sleeve is a well-proven solution to overcome problems with worn shafts, without having to disassemble the shaft or specify a new seal size
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09LiVbqL6ss
http://www.truckmall.com/manufacture...crproducts.htm
http://www.skf.com/us/products/seals...eve/index.html

Next time my input shaft on the automatic trans is leaking again, I will use speedy sleeve too.
See here from 2009 where someone on the German 7-forum had a leaking sleeve on the distributor housing shaft, instead of a new housing he used upon my recommendation speedi-sleeves

http://www.7-forum.com/forum/5/750i-...ge-107245.html

[CroughtonE32]

Although this picture is of a three series. It looks very much like mine. The thing is here you're looking at the seal head on. The Shim I was missing goes in before you press the seal into place. Other wise the seal will not fill the space necessary to fill. The only marks on my shaft is a small circular groove where the original shim had been spinning for 26 years. Have you ever dealt with one of these. Replacing the rear seal, but pushing the Shim in before you press the seal in place? Seems new to both of my mechanics, but it sure makes sense since when you put the shim in first the seal has a much tighter fit. Hope this stops the oil leak. I'm thinking it will. Thanks

[Sansouci]

Jeff,
You and your maintenance team should be congratulated for perseverance to find the answer and keep the car on the road.
Ken

[TonyPa]

Wow, I have to do my oil pan, rear seal, and timing cover. Feeling worried now. I thought I seen the rear seal came in a complete type of kit. That whole cover set. But then again I may be wrong. I am still trying to learn my first BMW.
Sidenote...I know my oil pan is leaking. I cant tell if the rear seal is. I was going to do it while I had the motor lifted and tranny out, just because I would have access to it.




.

[CroughtonE32]

Since you have the same M30 engine as I do, just remember when you take the transmission off and the seal is facing you there is a shim in back of it. Like I found out in my research, if you replace the seal with a new one and don't put a new shim in first your new seal will probably leak. Some sort of groove that the factory shim creates on the shaft after many years. You could use the sleeve that Shogun posted, but by the time I found out about those, my shim and new seal were already in. Just scroll up to my picture from REAL OEM above and look at number 3. The part number is 11141252897 and it costs between 10 and 15 bucks. You can even find them on EBay. My first two seals were OEM, but my final seal was made by Elring. I bought it from BavAuto. Those things are always in stock everywhere, but order the shim now. Could take 10 days unless you get it on EBay, and really.....this shim is so important I'd rather have OEM. Good luck with the job. Also if you decide to order the Elring crankshaft seal from BavAuto, they also have the oil pan gasket. Don't know why but the Elring is $7.95, and the OEM is $27.95. I ordered the original for the extra money and it came to me torn in the mail. So when I called for credit they gave me full credit but said they only had the Elring in stock now. They sent it and it was the same exact cork oil pan gasket. Absolutely no difference. Same color same thickness, same everything. They told me to throw the OEM one away and to tell you the truth the Elring gasket came to me packed much better. On a hard piece of cardboard with cellophane wrap (no chance of damage in the mail). The top timing cover gasket replacement will be real easy.......the bottom part is quite different. Glad to see you're lifting the engine up a bit. Might want to check your timing chain tensioner while you're in there. I raise my glass to "Non Leaking E32's". We should all be so lucky.
Jeff

[TonyPa]

Thank you very much. I am so glad I read this thread. I hope mine does not have a groove in the crank, but at a 180k...it might. I did see number 3 on the photo and noticed the shim. I didnt know if the shim came in different thickness'. Or just one size. I hope I will notice if it put a groove in it, so I know wether to sleeve it or not. Hope it didnt. I seen the seal in some type of kit where it is already installed in that triangle thing. Sorry, I dont know the name of the complete set up. I honestly did plan on checking the guide rails and chain while its apart. My benz yearrs ago snapped a plastic guide rail, I never forgot that one. Ugh
I will be doing this job in about a month. I am still tackling other stuff.

[CroughtonE32]

Keep us informed and for god's sake.....take pictures. Learn to post pictures with photo bucket. http://s5.photobucket.com/

If you need help using it Private Message me, and I'll walk you through it. Just like the old timers did for me a couple of years ago. It will be nice showing your work, and great for us to see it. You M30 has an amazing reputation. Even Wikapedia says this about our inline 6.

The BMW M30 is a straight-6 SOHC piston engine which was produced from 1968 to 1994. The first model to use the 2494 cc version of the M30 was the E3 2500. Over its 28-year lifespan, the M30 was used in many BMW models. Although there was no direct replacement for the M30 engine, effectively the v8 M60 and straight-6 M50 (smaller capacity than the M30, but with DOHC) took over from the M30.
Initially, the engine code was "M06", before it was renamed the M30 in the mid 1980s. The engine has been given the nicknames of 'Big Six' and 'Senior Six', following the introduction of the smaller BMW M20 straight-6 in the late 1970s.
Ward's have rated the M30 as one of the "Top Engines of the 20th Century".^[1]

[TonyPa]

Thank you. I do have a photo bucket. I will be sure to take plenty of photos. I plan on hoosting the notor up about 4 inches and doing the oil pan and rear main. The lowering it then doing the timing cover.
I am so hoping i dont have to sleeve the crank. I guess if it is scored I will be able to tell? Like seeing a line or groove? A bit nervous about that part. I honestly dont know if the rear main is leaking. But the pan sure is. And the timing cover.

[CroughtonE32]

I think if you put that original shim in from the picture like it came from the factory, you're going to be just fine. That whole conversation about scoring came about because I called a guy to speak to at Bav Auto to ask why if the factory installs the shims why do they not just sell it with every seal they ship. He had no real answer other than to read from his notes on the seal and that was these seals are not supposed to go.......hence the shim needs not to be kept in stock. but high millage cars like ours.....seals go. And when they do the shim should always be replaced in case after so many years it made markings that would cause the new oil seal to leak. If you inspect and you've got any more of a problem, or really any problem that you can actually see, then talk to Shogun about where you might order a sleeve that's the correct size for your crankshaft before you install the seal. This is all new to me......so I'm sure you'll be fine.

[TonyPa]

Thank you. I am so glad I did see this though. I would have never thought about the shim. I will check for scoring for sure.
I did sleeve something before many years ago. I just cant remember now what it was.. But I remember the sleeve being extremely thin. But it worked. I just want to be oil leak free. It dont leak bad enoigh to go through much oil. But it is annoying. I want the car right while I am doing a mild restore. This car was never used in the winter, or even in the rain by the original owner. Its like mint condition. It deserves it.

[CroughtonE32]

Job Done.....................I almost couldn't believe it. After the third pulling of my transmission and the third replacing of my rear crankshaft seal, I picked up the car yesterday. Drove about 70 miles and put her in the garage. Eighteen hours later I backed it out to find my garage floor was dry as a bone. I have to think that the shim did the trick. Don't know how long this will last.....whether I'll measure it in days, weeks months or years, but at the moment I have a "Leak Free" E32. And in life........................Who could ask for more than that?

Jeff

[TonyPa]

That's outstanding!! Congrats!! I hope my story ends the same way. Lol
I just have to remember the shim and sleeve if needed. I still have to see if mine is leaking there. I just know my oil pan and timing cover are. I am just guessing without checking that after 180k that my rear main is probably tired.

[TheStigg]

. . . I just know my oil pan and timing cover are. I am just guessing without checking that after 180k that my rear main is probably tired.

I swapped my auto to a manual at 162k and the rear main was dry so I left it alone and it's still dry at 205k. We did my son's e34 m30 swap at 215K+ and it's still dry at 280k. Maybe we got lucky but "let sleeping dogs lay".

I did have to do the pan gaskets on both cars. Cork gasket, too bad they don't have a metal/neoprene composite gasket for m30's like the e36 m50's. If you have supposed timing cover leaks, check the link on Shogun's page for "Evans Web" fix for the CPS bolt re-seal.:

http://www.evansweb.info/2003/02/19/...gine-oil-leak/

[TonyPa]

Excellent link! Thank you. I was under mine once and saw the oil pan leak. It almost looks like a plastic oil pan gasket sticking out where the pan was leaking. I need to look at those bolts, now you have me wondering. That would be nice if that was it. I need to slide back under my car and try to see if the rear main is leaking. I don't notice it on the floor near the rear of the engine. It's just hard to tell right now. But it's sure coming out the front mostly when running, it's just everywhere. The dealer told the previous owner, oil pan, timing cover, and oil filter housing gasket. They never said rear main. I was just guessing because of oil leaks and age.
Would be nice to do the oil pan an that bolt. I would be thrilled!!

[CroughtonE32]

If the rear crankshaft seal is leaking I think you'll find oil on the center link. Pretty easy way to spot it that way. The center link comes across about where the engine and transmission come together. At least that where my rear crankshaft seal leaks were showing up. Just reach under and rub your hand on top of the center link and see if there's fresh oil.

[shogun]

But carefully check the color of the "oil", it can be engine oil, or -if redish- ATF, then the "oil" comes from the input shaft seal of the transmission, which is almost 'normal' after 20 years hard working. The ATF comes out from the plastic grid at the bottom http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m...g?t=1255594702 Officially called Protection grid for additional fan 24111215126 (for my 4HP24)

That I detected only a few years ago, that there is a possibility to install an additional fan inside the bell housing to cool the torque converter and the trans additionally. I assume maybe Landrover is using that, not sure yet, would like to install such a additional fan for testing.
There is an ATF Cooler on our cars of course and usually that is enough, unless you tow heavy equipment or live in tropical climates.
That will not overcool the fluid, of course that is also not good. But too high ATF temperature is also (very) bad. There are designs that makes a trans cooler like this. It works on this principle, when the trans fluid is cool (thick) it bypasses the cooler, when the fluid is hot (thin) the trans fluid goes through the cooler. This type of trans cooler is great for the wintertime because if its really cold out then you know the trans fluid is bypassing the cooler and not getting overcooled. I think 150-180 F. is a good range.

How does heat affect transmission life?

TRANSMISSION FAILURE/TEMPERATURE CHART.Most automatic transmissions fail due to a breakdown of the transmission fluid (oil) caused by overheating. This chart provides a graphic display of heat's contribution to transmission failure. The effect is also cumulative. Short term exposure to high heat levels (or even prolonged exposure to moderate heat) can break down the oil to the point where even very short episodes of overheating will lead to failure.
heatchrt.jpg
Info courtesy of http://www.txchange.com/heatchrt.htm

[TonyPa]

If the rear crankshaft seal is leaking I think you'll find oil on the center link. Pretty easy way to spot it that way. The center link comes across about where the engine and transmission come together. At least that where my rear crankshaft seal leaks were showing up. Just reach under and rub your hand on top of the center link and see if there's fresh oil.

I'll have mine back up on jack stands tomorrow. I'll try and see if the rear seal is leaking. I cant remember if the center link had anything on it. The oil pan is leaking for sure. I'll take some photos tomorrow.

- - - Updated - - -

But carefully check the color of the "oil", it can be engine oil, or -if redish- ATF, then the "oil" comes from the input shaft seal of the transmission, which is almost 'normal' after 20 years hard working. The ATF comes out from the plastic grid at the bottom http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m...g?t=1255594702 Officially called Protection grid for additional fan 24111215126 (for my 4HP24)

That I detected only a few years ago, that there is a possibility to install an additional fan inside the bell housing to cool the torque converter and the trans additionally. I assume maybe Landrover is using that, not sure yet, would like to install such a additional fan for testing.
There is an ATF Cooler on our cars of course and usually that is enough, unless you tow heavy equipment or live in tropical climates.
That will not overcool the fluid, of course that is also not good. But too high ATF temperature is also (very) bad. There are designs that makes a trans cooler like this. It works on this principle, when the trans fluid is cool (thick) it bypasses the cooler, when the fluid is hot (thin) the trans fluid goes through the cooler. This type of trans cooler is great for the wintertime because if its really cold out then you know the trans fluid is bypassing the cooler and not getting overcooled. I think 150-180 F. is a good range.

How does heat affect transmission life?

TRANSMISSION FAILURE/TEMPERATURE CHART.Most automatic transmissions fail due to a breakdown of the transmission fluid (oil) caused by overheating. This chart provides a graphic display of heat's contribution to transmission failure. The effect is also cumulative. Short term exposure to high heat levels (or even prolonged exposure to moderate heat) can break down the oil to the point where even very short episodes of overheating will lead to failure.
heatchrt.jpg
Info courtesy of http://www.txchange.com/heatchrt.htm

I wont be doing any towing..etc.
I'll check the color tomorrow while I have it on stands. I am prepping to remove my driveshaft and hoping the rebuilt one I am getting takes care of my 30mph vibration through the car. I'll see if its oil or atf at the back of the engine.

[Emilj4nos]

Hi everyone, I’m new here and this my first post. I’m planning to fix my crankshaft rear seal leakage and I would like to know where i could get this Speedi-sleeve you talk about here and what size it should be? I already have the seal, oli pan seal and ordered the shim from ebay. Is there something else i should replace while i’m at it?

Thank you.

[shogun]

SKF owns now speedy sleeve, contact SKF Finland or check their website. Suomi http://www.skf.com/fi/index.html?switch=y They have sleeves for shaft diameters from 11,99 - 203,33 mm.
Check the shaft diameter and then see what they have. If you already have the seal you know the dimension almost.

[Emilj4nos]

SKF owns now speedy sleeve, contact SKF Finland or check their website. Suomi http://www.skf.com/fi/index.html?switch=y They have sleeves for shaft diameters from 11,99 - 203,33 mm.
Check the shaft diameter and then see what they have. If you already have the seal you know the dimension almost.

Wow thanks for replying, okay i check the diameter from the seal then.

So would you recommend changing anything else while the tranny is detached ?

[shogun]

transmission input and output shaft seal and the seal on the side for the lever. Engine mounts and transmission mounts. Center bearing for the driveshaft

[Emilj4nos]

transmission input and output shaft seal and the seal on the side for the lever. Engine mounts and transmission mounts. Center bearing for the driveshaft

Okay thanks for the info! I bought the speedy-sleeve, was 70euros, 90mm diameter and 40mm deep, part number is 99354 if anyone is wondering. Now just waiting for the shim ring to arrive then I start taking the thing apart!
I will follow up with the pics and story once i dig in!