Timing Chain Guides and VANOS - A Couple of Questions....

[Antipodean]

So I have ordered all the parts and have the cam timing tools in hand, so was planning to dive into the TCG and VANOS project this weekend.

The car is a 2001 740i with 120k miles. I have read through the Besian procedure as well as the DIY guides on this forum and elsewhere and it all seems straight forward but had a couple of questions about some of the parts that should be replaced and what is fine to reuse. I would appreciate any thoughts from folks that have been there before so that I do not need to go back in again later.

Here are the parts I had questions on:

- The cam-to-cam chain tensioners - should these be replaced outright or just the two plastic guide pieces?
- The cam oil seals (where they enter the VANOS body) 6 total - the Besian procedure including replacing these but they do not show up in the other DIY's I've seen. Do they need to be replaced?
- The VANOS aluminium bodies - mine is the later model with the Teflon coating, but should these be replaced or are they fine to reuse (assuming they are in good repair)?
- The VANOS solenoids - replace or just the seals?
- The cam position sensors - replace?

I have already done the valley pan, water pump CVV and cooling system hoses etc in the last 20k so do not need to replace those parts, and am going to replace the tornado oil separator thingy, VANOS oil check valves, chains (as well as guides of course) but do want to catch all the other bits that are susceptible while I am in there.

TIA and wish me luck!

Rob.

[PiotrC70]

- The cam-to-cam chain tensioners - should these be replaced outright or just the two plastic guide pieces?
- The cam oil seals (where they enter the VANOS body) 6 total - the Besian procedure including replacing these but they do not show up in the other DIY's I've seen. Do they need to be replaced?
- The VANOS aluminium bodies - mine is the later model with the Teflon coating, but should these be replaced or are they fine to reuse (assuming they are in good repair)?
- The VANOS solenoids - replace or just the seals?
- The cam position sensors - replace?

Because of the work involved in replacing later...
Replace the entire cam-to-cam tensioner, not just the plastic guides
The Cam oil seals if I recall are metal ring style correct? If so, replace those while there. I didn't do the Vanos rebuild because my chatter is very faint and occasionally during startup.
Vanos stuff can stay including the solenoid since those can be replaced with the timing cover on and just unscrewed... same with the CAM position sensors.
I'd also replace the metal gaskets behind each cam/vanos assembly including the little blue/green o-ring on the passenger head below the cam.

[Kurt C]

Replace only the guide pieces.
Replace the cam seals and reuse your existing oil distribution pieces (1999 MY's should be replaced),
If your VANOS solinoids and cam sensors weren't throwing codes I'd reuse them. Good idea to change the check valves behind the solinoids as they can accumulate gunk and the spring gets weak resulting in oil drainback and a rattle at start-up. And yes, replace the seals around the solinoids.
Also inspect the chain tensioner and replace if the spring is extended or weak as it is another source of rattle on startup.

I've found this to be one of the most rewarding and confidence inspiring jobs I've done to date.

Good luck, have fun and stay warm.

[racer2086]

I am just finishing this up on my non-vanos M62 right now. I opted to replace the upper tensioners. The plastic pieces are about $10 each (2 needed) and the whole tensioner itself is around ~$60-70. The new tensioner comes with a new o-ring on it to seal the oil passage. It is worth replacing everything while you are in there for an extra ~$50 per side. It is a big job that you will not want to do again.

Also, consider that the tensioners are a metal piston inside a cylinder that fills with oil under oil pressure to force the tensioner apart. Any frictional wear of those tensioners from moving will decrease the pressure that the tensioner can hold from oil seeping by. Does this make a real world difference? I don't know. I tried to compress my 200,000 mile tensioners with my hands and it was very hard. I got them to compress some as oil came out between the piston and body. They probably would have been fine, but the plastic eye holes in the guide pieces that the clips slip into broke right off when I put the clips in.

All the plastic in there is extremely brittle.

[robo740il]

I am reassembling mine right now after replacing the Vanos with rebuilt units. I opted not to replace them when I did my TCG's 2yrs ago, but the idle noise when warm got progressively worse. Sure wish I had replaced the Vanos when I did the TCGs. (Done at 112K)

[Kurt C]

Other than the sliding pieces attached to them, the cam-to-cam tensioners are a part in the M62TU that has no failure record. And I can tell you having done several VANOS rebuilds it would be money needlessly spent replacing the entire tensioner unit. It's your money, but keep in mind the tensioners run about $75 each, opposed to $6 each for the four sliding pieces.

[dannyzabolotny]

I've done three timing chain guide/Vanos jobs on three separate M62tu's last year. I didn't replace the cam-to-cam tensioners because there's really not much in them that goes wrong. You replace the little plastic guides on them and replace the o-ring (new o-rings come in the Beisan Vanos kit) and they're as good as new. Just make sure they're clean and free of any blockage when you put them back in, and you'll be fine.

[ebida3]

As of today I am joining the ranks of timing chain guide DIYers. I need to rent the tools. Anyone looking to rent a set. I will give deposit if necessary.
Thank you, marc

- - - Updated - - -

Rob, my 2001 w/ 154k just started knocking. I believe it's the guides. The car still runs strong though.
I'm going to pull the tensioner and see if I can pull the chain over the cam sprocket with valve cover off just to make sure.
Even though pulling the pan is the right way, if the guide is gone the chain without the tensioner will be very slack.
I'm just not sure if it's the guide or VANOS.
Once again she runs strong and noise quiets to a loud tic after I run her for a minute or two. Upon initial start she sounds like a diesel.
Any input would be appreciated on ways to diagnose between VANOSA and guides.
PS I'm going to replace the tensioner with my old one just to make sure that it's not that making a racket.

[Antipodean]

Thanks all. The only parts that seems to be in question for replacement are the cam-to-cam tensioners. I think my strategy will be to take a look at these once I have everything apart and if there is any indication of wear or other issues with them, then I will replace them. I am sure there will be time to order the parts if necessary - I am planning on this being a multi-weekend project.

ebida3 - I am not the expert on VANOS versus guides noises. I am replacing mine purely as a preventative step as the engine is generally pretty quiet. I think the VANOS noise is more noticeable when the engine is warm (and the oil thinner) and at idle. That is when I am getting a bit of a clack-clack noise on mine. Whereas failed chain guides probably make noise all the time and would get louder with increased revs I should think. But there are others here that I am sure can provide much better information.

Rob.

[dannyzabolotny]

As of today I am joining the ranks of timing chain guide DIYers. I need to rent the tools. Anyone looking to rent a set. I will give deposit if necessary.
Thank you, marc

- - - Updated - - -

Rob, my 2001 w/ 154k just started knocking. I believe it's the guides. The car still runs strong though.
I'm going to pull the tensioner and see if I can pull the chain over the cam sprocket with valve cover off just to make sure.
Even though pulling the pan is the right way, if the guide is gone the chain without the tensioner will be very slack.
I'm just not sure if it's the guide or VANOS.
Once again she runs strong and noise quiets to a loud tic after I run her for a minute or two. Upon initial start she sounds like a diesel.
Any input would be appreciated on ways to diagnose between VANOSA and guides.
PS I'm going to replace the tensioner with my old one just to make sure that it's not that making a racket.

If it gets quieter I would say it's the Vanos. Timing chain guide rattle doesn't get quieter or go away after starting. The only sure way to know is by dropping the oil pan. If it still runs fine, just keep driving it and drop the oil pan whenever you change the oil.

[ebida3]

I'll tell ya with my stethoscope it's knocking right at the ft center of valve cover. Actually a little lower.
Yea danny Im thinking a chain would be so load and gets louder with rpms.

[NordmanMg]

My .02c. Mandatory-replace OSV, do not pass on it, or it can fail and than you will be in smokey-trouble

[purplecty]

My .02c. Mandatory-replace OSV, do not pass on it, or it can fail and than you will be in smokey-trouble

This should be a part of any TCG kit sold IMO...

[dannyzabolotny]

Yep. Replace the OSV or you'll be sorry. The fragile plastic neck on that is almost guaranteed to break when you swap out the chain guide, so just replace it. It's not terribly expensive and replacing it otherwise sucks.

[Antipodean]

Yep. Replace the OSV or you'll be sorry. The fragile plastic neck on that is almost guaranteed to break when you swap out the chain guide, so just replace it. It's not terribly expensive and replacing it otherwise sucks.

OSV was already on my list of parts to replace. It seems anything internal and plastic should be replaced.

[racer2086]

Other than the sliding pieces attached to them, the cam-to-cam tensioners are a part in the M62TU that has no failure record. And I can tell you having done several VANOS rebuilds it would be money needlessly spent replacing the entire tensioner unit. It's your money, but keep in mind the tensioners run about $75 each, opposed to $6 each for the four sliding pieces.

There was a thread in the E39 section that talked about the cam-to-cam tensioners as contributing to the start up rattle. The member watched those tensioners on start up. I imagine this could be a factor of bleed down of those tensioners, but do not have proof If we replace the lower tensioner (same principle, same design), why not replace the upper tensioners? Of course, I have no research or proof of these theories. But I do know, there's no way to replace those tensioners without removing all chains in order to get to them.

[Kurt C]

There was a thread in the E39 section that talked about the cam-to-cam tensioners as contributing to the start up rattle. The member watched those tensioners on start up. I imagine this could be a factor of bleed down of those tensioners, but do not have proof If we replace the lower tensioner (same principle, same design), why not replace the upper tensioners? Of course, I have no research or proof of these theories. But I do know, there's no way to replace those tensioners without removing all chains in order to get to them.

I can't speak to what a guy on the E39 forum experienced, or wrote (are you sure he was working on an M62TU motor?). What I can speak to is this: if you've ever removed your oil fill cap with the engine running to check for a failing CCV then you've seen how much oil these motors circulate (splashing hot oil outside the motor at an alarming rate)... So I cannot begin to imagine someone actually running one without the valve covers. Be that as it may - the hydraulics of the cam-to-cam tensioners do not fail and in no way, other than purpose, can they be compared to the hydraulic tensioner that is a documented service part.

[clarkitect]

I would just replace the plastic guides and o-rings on the tensioners. The o-rings will come in the Beisan seal kit you should be installing anyway.

I wouldn't replace the entire tensioner.

Here's everything I replaced when I did my guides:

12/10-1/11	Timing chain guide service		178,500
	Timing chain guide rail	11311741236		$98.95
	Timing chain guide rail	11311741777		$116.95
	Timing chain guide lower left	11311745406		$40.95
	Timing chain tensioner o-ring	07119906361		$0.95
	Timing chain tensioner	11317531813		$68.95
	Oil pan gasket	11131436324		$20.95
	Oil separator	11151705272		$47.95
	Timing cover gasket set (lower)	11141436978		$20.95
	Crankshaft seal front	11141275466		$27.95
	O-rings for air pipe	07119901511		$1.90
	EGR Valve gasket	11727505259		$4.50
	Alternator O-ring	F00M258503		$5.95
	Timing cover seal ring (green one)	11141736758		$2.95
	Fan shroud clip	17111712963		$1.00
	Center shaft bolt (Jesus bolt)	11231736585		$19.95
	Crankcase vent valve	11617501563		$54.95
	Beisan vanos seals and tools			$70.00
	Vacuum hose (white with black stripe)	11747797177		$5.95
	Vacuum hose (blue with black stripe)	11747797082		$5.95
	Air pump vacuum hose	11731438139		$8.95
	AC drive belt	5PK1004		$10.95
	Accessory drive belt	7PK1635		$19.95
	VC Seal Washer (6)	11121721879		$3.00
	VC Seal Washer ( )
	Dipstick O-ring	11431707164		$3.95
	Valley pan replacement kit (FCP)	M62VALLEYPANKIT		$192.70
	Oil separator hose	11151705301		$34.95
	Water pump (Graf)	11510393336		$109.95
	Thermostat gasket	11511705408		$0.99
	Expansion tank (Hudson)	17111741167		$39.95
	Heater hose	64218390319		$15.95
	Expansion tank hose	11531711381		$16.95
	Water pipe from t-stat to trans cooler	11531711384		$37.95
	Cooling hose from radiator to trans cooler	11531711385		$16.95
	Cooling hose from cooler to metal line	11537511207		$14.95
	Timing cover seal strip (cyl 1-4)	11141741127		$7.95
	Timing cover seal strip (cyl 5-8)	11141741128		$7.95
	Camshaft solenoid gasket (2)	11141435023		$15.90
	Oil filter (Hengst)	11427510717		$8.95
	BMW Blue Anti-freeze (2)	82141467704		$49.90
	Brake booster vacuum valve (Jet pump)	11611440135		$42.99
	Timing chain guide upper (cam to cam, 4)	11311435028		$31.96
	VC gasket set (BFCP)	11120034104		$33.01
	VC gasket set (BFCP)	11120034105		$33.01
	Tax			$3.96
	Timing tool rental plus shipping			$72.60

[cyclops2]

I would just replace the plastic guides and o-rings on the tensioners. The o-rings will come in the Beisan seal kit you should be installing anyway.

I wouldn't replace the entire tensioner.

Here's everything I replaced when I did my guides:

The is the most organized list I've seen. Thanks for sharing. I used many lists when I purchased the parts for my TCG project (which I've not done yet). It is important to note that although there is some overlap, some of these parts numbers aren't right for the pre-facelift models if I remember correctly (obviously the vanos parts aren't needed, but some parts different).

I also felt it was warranted to replace the timing chain. I bought the plastic guides for the cam tensioners (but not the tensioner assemblies or the cam chains). Also replace the chain tensioner (not to be confused with the guides).

The big question is always how far to go, there are many peripheral things that could be done "when in there".

1. all coolant system components

2. intake gaskets

3. valley pan

4. valve cover gaskets (powder coat valve covers)

etc. etc.

[racer2086]

Yeah I replaced all my chains. Both cam chains, the main chain, and even the oil pump chain. All easily replaced when everything is apart. The oil pump chain was a measly $15. To my surprise, the whole system with new chains is so much tighter than I remember when I disassembled everything. I also replaced the o-rings on the oil lines that connect behind the alt. Way easier to access with all that stuff out of the way.

I was surprised that my OSV was actually in decent shape -- what was completely wasted was the rubber fitting on the bottom that plugs into the metal tube. That crumbled apart. I also changed the o-rings for that metal arm that the OSV plugs into that goes through the head to the pipe under the intake. I have an extensive list of the parts and numbers for prefacelift. When I actually get done, I want to post it up in a thread with some pictures.

[Kurt C]

The big question is always how far to go, there are many peripheral things that could be done "when in there".

1. all coolant system components

2. intake gaskets

3. valley pan

4. valve cover gaskets (powder coat valve covers)

etc. etc.

So, so very true. Knowing I was going to keep this car until I can afford a 650 Gran Coupe I went all in, which included installing the Zionsville Super Duty Cooling kit in addition to the VANOS.

Realistically, how much each of us paid for our car, and when, is certainly a determinant factor in how much we are willing to invest into it today. And I'd like to believe that when I do get my Gran Coupe - and I will - I will keep and maintain my 01 Shorty Sport, because, IMHO and metaphorically speaking, between these two iconic towers (the E38 and the F06) their is no bridge.

[clarkitect]

Yeah I replaced all my chains. Both cam chains, the main chain, and even the oil pump chain. All easily replaced when everything is apart. The oil pump chain was a measly $15. To my surprise, the whole system with new chains is so much tighter than I remember when I disassembled everything. I also replaced the o-rings on the oil lines that connect behind the alt. Way easier to access with all that stuff out of the way.

I was surprised that my OSV was actually in decent shape -- what was completely wasted was the rubber fitting on the bottom that plugs into the metal tube. That crumbled apart. I also changed the o-rings for that metal arm that the OSV plugs into that goes through the head to the pipe under the intake. I have an extensive list of the parts and numbers for prefacelift. When I actually get done, I want to post it up in a thread with some pictures.

I just tightened the existing oil pump chain. Seemed to tighten up perfectly.

[racer2086]

Yeah you can do that too. I have never adjusted mine, so I just removed the nut on the pump sprocket, slipped the old chain off, and put the new in there. Right within tolerance.

I started the car today for the first time. I was so nervous lol. It fired right up. Not a single rattle or noise either, but I wouldn't expect that with how tight all the new chains were with the new guides. It was so tight the cover itself was tensioning the chain on the passenger side. So far so good.

[cyclops2]

I started the car today for the first time. I was so nervous lol. It fired right up. Not a single rattle or noise either, So far so good.

Congrats!! well done!

[ebida3]

I'm replacing guides, OSV, chains, tensioners, everything. How involved is it to rebuild the VANOS?
Anyone have any experience with this?

- - - Updated - - -

How difficult was the VANOS. It looks like I need special tools.