1992 E36 Coupe Electric Rear Vents -Retrofit

[MParallel]

Large pins are older version of connectors. E36 has a bit of a mix betwen old and new. I'm pretty sure the 4 large pins do exactly the same as the small ones.

there's more connectors where older models use large pins, later production e36's the smaller ones.

[DJ Genius]

These large pin yellow body switches were used ONLY for vent windows. That is why it is so hard to get them. The part number is 61318357208.
They were also used on E53 X5 for rear seat backrest adjustment.

[flyfishvt]

So why not get newer small pin switches and pigtails from a junk yard or from someone parting out a newer e36 and splice it onto that harness?

[DJ Genius]

Yes, exactly. That is a plausible cheaper option, if you are not perfectionist...

[MParallel]

So why not get newer small pin switches and pigtails from a junk yard or from someone parting out a newer e36 and splice it onto that harness?

Indeed, that was my whole point.

I also do wonder if you have them and code the ZKE4 to one-touch close on the rear windows and use the yellow 4-position switch, they will auto close.

And same for one-touch open. If it works for convertibles, it should do exactly the same for rear vent windows.

[DJ Genius]

I don't know... Coupe rear vent windows seem to get the same treatment as a sunroof. And we all know how hard it is to do a one-touch feature on the sunroof. You actually need to buy a bypass wiring system in order to do it. It is not just a switch change.
I think it is the same with the rear vents. ZKE IV controls the front door windows and has a memory of the window position. I don't know how ZKEs are built, but it would need to have memory functions for the rear vents as well.

I had a look at convertible motors. They also have only 2 wires going into the motors, one for opening the window, another for closing. But these motors have an additional A5 relay (same as sedan models). And it requires more additional wiring. But seeing it uses the same ZKE IV module... there is hope. I wonder if teaching convertible rear windows of new OPENED and CLOSED positions is the same as for the front door windows. If so, then it may be possible that ZKE can actually store 4 separate windows's positions.

If we could save coupe rear vent OPENED and CLOSED positions in ZKE IV module, then we could add A5 relay and have the one-touch feature working. The only difference I see is the window travel. On convertible or sedan, windows travel much more than coupe's rear vents. But if we can save ANY positions, then after doing a proper window position teaching procedure below, we might be able to pull this off:

An initialization must be performed:
• In the event of malfunctions, e.g. no one-touch control function, no opening or if available no comfort function is possible
• After the power window drive has been replaced
• After work is carried out on the power window mechanism
• If necessary, after an open circuit, e.g. disconnection of the battery or disconnection of the power supply to the door
• After the door window glass has been removed and installed or replaced
• After adjustment work on the door window glass
• After adjustment work on the convertible top
• After replacement of seals


Initialization is performed on the power window switch of the relevant door.
Requirements for correct initialization:
• Terminal "R" activated
• Doors and windows closed
• Sufficient battery voltage; connect charger if necessary
Initialization comprises:
• Erasure of initialization
• Reinitialization


Erasure of initialization:
• Open door window glass fully
• Actuate power window switch in "Open" position (second switch position) and hold down for between 15 and 20 seconds
This clears initialization of the power window. Anti-trapping protection and one-touch control (toll) function are inactive.
Check whether one-touch control (toll) function is inactive, otherwise repeat procedure.
Reinitialization:
• Close door window completely
• After upper end position is reached, interrupt actuation of power window switch and then hold switch again for approx. 1 second in "Close" position (second switch position)
• Open door window glass fully
• After upper end position is reached, interrupt actuation of power window switch and then hold switch again for approx. 1 second in "Open" position (second switch position)
• Close door window completely
• After upper end position is reached, interrupt actuation of power window switch and then hold switch again for approx. 1 second in "Close" position (second switch position)
This completes initialization.
Note:
Carry out function check (one-touch control function, anti-trapping protection and, if necessary, comfort function).

Note:
The power window can also be initialized in the BMW diagnosis system by means of a diagnosis job.

I shall definitely give it a shot. Here is an A5 RELAY MODULE (the one on the bottom right with a white connector), coupe models don't have it:



P.s. bmw4life92 , I'm sorry, I don't want to sound like I am hijacking your thread. But it seems we are both working on the same retrofit project.

[bmw4life92]

Yes we are man I need all the info and help I can get, so keep updating us as you figure out what works during install!

BTW if I'm going to retrofit the ZKE 4, 18 button OBC and electric rear windows and original alarm etc, will it mby be easiest to get a whole wiring harness from a newer model who have most if not all of these connectors? Or will that be way to time consuming?


Thanks all ;D

[johnf]

So why not get newer small pin switches and pigtails from a junk yard or from someone parting out a newer e36 and splice it onto that harness?

Take an old switch apart and a new switch apart, and you will quickly notice a big difference. The new switch will burn out.

[DJ Genius]

Is it because of the higher current? Looking at the diagrams I can see only 0.5 sq.mm. wires going into the switches, don't see any reason for switches to be any beefier.

[bmw4life92]

I will ofc check my X13 connector first and see if it has open pins before doing anything drastic. But I can get a hold of a complete wiring harness from a 11/1995 328i coupe or a 3.0 M3, these has the connectors for the ZKE 4 and much more, Its from a car with M52B28 or S50B30 engine, so will my M50 vanos engine run correctly with either this harnesses or with its own, and just strip the whole interiour and swap everything about the wiring harness exept the engine wiring?

If adding electronic extras later is going to be easier that way, its an option.
My car dont even have the "pre-wiring" connector behind the glovebox for original BMW alarm, so it seems it might be less work in swapping out the cars wiring harness with a newer one than to start wiring up every single connector???

[johnf]

Is it because of the higher current? Looking at the diagrams I can see only 0.5 sq.mm. wires going into the switches, don't see any reason for switches to be any beefier.

Oh dear. If a later switch has second, one-touch detents, that will also very briefly mess things up, until the window motor destroys a second set of switch contacts.

[DJ Genius]

Oh dear. If a later switch has second, one-touch detents, that will also very briefly mess things up, until the window motor destroys a second set of switch contacts.

But that is the way sedan/convertible windows work. They have an additional RMIV Relay Module that specifically control the rear window motors. It doesn't matter what switches you use earlier or later, all that switches get power from ZKEIV and send signals to RMIV relay. RMIV relay gets its own power from fuse F19 in power distribution box (Fuse Box).
To be sure, I would need to check the power of the sedan/convertible rear window motor and compare it to coupe rear vent motor. Is that's what you are trying to say, johnf? Those two motors are not interchangeable, because coupe rear vent motors need less power?

[johnf]

...To be sure, I would need to check the power of the sedan/convertible rear window motor and compare it to coupe rear vent motor. Is that's what you are trying to say, johnf? Those two motors are not interchangeable, because coupe rear vent motors need less power?

No, I forgot that you guys had also been discussing the rear window relay module. I would expect the rear window switches meant for that, followed by the module might just work just fine with the rear vent windows.*

It is clear that I have got too many things going on at the moment to follow this thread, and better drop out.

One parting thought. Rather than replicate the old switch-and-relay system BMW quickly tacked on to the existing window electronics, have you guys thought about just adding a bit more electronics? I eventually added a couple Autoloc WC-1000 window control modules to make my vent windows one-touch. (A nice improvement.) I inserted them between the motors and the vent window, comfort close double-relay, and had to change three resistors in each module to accommodate the window motors peculiarities. From what I remember studying the modules and the rear vent window electrics, I bet you could eliminate the relay and have the WC-1000 modules do everything.

* EDIT: Having had another moment to think about it, although the module may work with the switches, it may not work with the rear vent windows – the windows may be too different.

[DJ Genius]

So how do your vent windows work? Work properly and have a one touch feature for opening and closing? What kind of window switches are you using? How did you teach the fully open and fully closed positions?

[johnf]

I retrofitted the electric vent windows when the car was a month old, using the newly introduced kit and harnesses from BMW. (I am the guy who set off the electric vent window retrofitting craze of 1996-97, and provided some of the info you find in later DIYs.) I kept the right side of the existing system with its relays, switch and wiring – so the windows would continue to comfort close – and connected both WC1000 modules and window motors after the dual, comfort close relay. I had to modify the modules to work with the smaller, slower rear vent window motors. That was straightforward, at least with with the modules I received, which could have been designed and built 40 years ago.

[DJ Genius]

Okay, I kind of get the idea now. So you went with rear vent route, where instead of installing a rear vent relay, you got the WC1000 modules. I looked at eBay, these modules cost 25-35 USD per module, and you installed 2 of them, so that was at least 50 USD.
I don't know if you read through all the thread. Our first intention was also to go with rear vent route and have everything wired just as OEM with rear vent relay. But, as it was suggested by MParallel, we started looking at convertible setup. After looking at couple different wiring diagrams I've immediately noticed that convertibles, sedans and tourings use A5 Relay Module (RM IV) to control rear window motors. This RM IV relay is controlled by ZKE IV module. All ZKE IV modules are pre-programmed the same for coupes, sedans and etc., but coupes simply do not use some of ZKE IV features, such as controlling rear window relay RM IV, as coupes officially don't have rear windows, hence they don't have RM IV relay module installed as well. Why BMW chose to use a unique Rear Hinged Window Relay for coupe electric vents instead of convertible/sedan RM IV rear window relay, I don't know... Instead of going with an existing setup, they invented a new setup.

Your option sounds very similar to ours, except that you are using aftermaket module and we are thinking of using OEM relay module.
In your scenario you needed 2 of those WC1000 modules - 50 USD.
In our scenario we need only 1 RM IV module, you can get them used for as little as 10 USD.

Please don't get me wrong, I applaud you for being one of the first to retrofit the rear vent windows. But I think our options is a bit cheaper and a bit easier to follow, as wiring diagrams are available all over, because we simply wire the rear vents just as convertible/sedan rear windows. My biggest concern is one-touch feature. It will definitely work, but I am concerned about calibrating the windows to their FULLY OPEN and FULLY CLOSED positions.
Do you remember how you trained your windows to those positions? How do your WC1000 modules know when windows are fully opened and fully closed?

Would this WC1000 module work with one-touch sunroof feature?

[MParallel]

^^
It was just a suggestion based on my hypothesis. Never touched rear vent window system parts. Might work, might not. I can imagine the rear vent window motors not having a position feedback function. But maybe they do have endpoint detection. Which you need for one-touch open/close.

No, the zke4 is explicitly programmed differently for each model. Like a sedan and touring that have no frameless window, so the window drop on opening is disables. That's just one example.

There is for example a parameter called "cabrio behavior" active/not active.

If only we had the zke5...that has so much more options. Like remote comfort closure/opening.

[DJ Genius]

^^
No, the zke4 is explicitly programmed differently for each model. Like a sedan and touring that have no frameless window, so the window drop on opening is disables. That's just one example.

Are you sure about this? I think it is very inefficient. I think they are all more less the same, but some features are disabled on some car models.
Well, I mean features can be enabled/disabled easily with a proper diagnostics software or tools.

[MParallel]

Maybe we mean the same. Yes technically identical, differently coded for each model.

I once had a bad zke (which turned out to be something else). Since I have a GT1, no need to source a specific zke coming out of a cabrio. Just buy one, hook it up, and upload the NCS Expert file I extracted before to code the module to EU cabrio settings.

[DJ Genius]

Just buy one, hook it up, and upload the NCS Expert file I extracted before to code the module to EU cabrio settings.

Is there a way of changing the settings without uploading the files? I mean more of like ticking the boxes using DIS or SSS/Progman?

[MParallel]

Nope. No chance. Progman hardly lets you change anything, because of country specific laws. That's where ncs expert comes into play, as this is factory software, that lets you program cars to meet these market specific settings.

[DJ Genius]

I have the NCS software, but not really familiar with it. Do you need to have files for the upload? If yes, would you be able to send me the convertible file? Or can you do adjustments without external files?

Today I went to a local scrap yard looking for Relay Module and some rear window switches from 98 sedan. Couldn't find the damn Relay Module and stood there confused... 5min later noticed that rear windows were manual! Couldn't believe some '98 E36s came with manual window lifters. Left empty handed.

[MParallel]

You read out your own module first. Modules have different coding indexes. When reading your car ncs tells you what version you have.

You want NCS Dummy, a super nice tool made by Revtor. Search the topic "taking the dummy out of ncs expert".

[DJ Genius]

Alright, that is another thing on my to do list
Would you mind telling me what colour rear window switches you have on your convertible? I am confused, are white or yellow switches the one-touch (5 stages) switches?

[bmw4life92]

Here is my electric components, partially complete wiring, connectors, yellow base switches, motors and ZKE 4 module from a 98 M3 3.2.

I like johnf's one-touch mod, according to him, his rear vents worked great with the modified AutoLoc modules. thinkin about getting a pair, open them and get to know them, and find out what size resistors need to be put in. Cant be that hard to heat up the solder and replace the resistors inside.
Not sure what to go for yet. Must get to know my wiring harness first, might just miss a K113 relay from it, and mby it will work fine wiring it into my ZVM etc.. hmmmmm

DJ Genius, keep me posted! Let me know if you start a DIY or new thread about this.


- - - Updated - - -

I am confused, are white or yellow switches the one-touch (5 stages) switches?

Me to man, I have 2 white base window switches laying around, the switches in my '92 325i have a green base and the switches in my rear vent kit has yellow base. Are one of these one-touch on its own? and the others are one-touch trough a relay or module?? Trying to paint a picture here.




Peace!