E21 Group 2 Build - Turbo S54, E46 running gear

[Tom D]

science is fun!

tell me about the bikes. one looks like a ducati and the other with the painted stripe on the fender, maybe a retro triumph.

[mustymark]

subscribed! looking forward to seeing this come together.

[audioscience10]

Now for the fun stuff!

E46 M3 front and rear suspension, subframes, steering rack, diff, axles, hubs, brakes and wheel sensors for traction control; everything but the springs and shocks (It'll be getting custom coilovers on all four corners). And of course the future beating heart: S54.

Awesome build man. If I could offer up some advise. I will tell you that having put an e36 rear in my car it is a huge pain in the "you know what." The problems start with the fact that the trailing arm mount points are wider than the whole car so modifying them like I've done or building new ones is required. If you are not too far into it already I would look into the e9x rear end. after seeing that I wish I would have gone that route instead, as it is almost a fully self contained unit that only has to attach to the car at the subframe mounts.

[brettkcherry]

science is fun!

tell me about the bikes. one looks like a ducati and the other with the painted stripe on the fender, maybe a retro triumph.

Good eye!

A 2011 Ducati Streetfighter S 1098, my pride and joy. And the 2014 Bonneville T100 in my girlfriends. It's been crappy weather out here in the NW so these haven't been out for a couple months :-(

You ride too?



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subscribed! looking forward to seeing this come together.

Thank you! Hope to not disappoint.

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Awesome build man. If I could offer up some advise. I will tell you that having put an e36 rear in my car it is a huge pain in the "you know what." The problems start with the fact that the trailing arm mount points are wider than the whole car so modifying them like I've done or building new ones is required. If you are not too far into it already I would look into the e9x rear end. after seeing that I wish I would have gone that route instead, as it is almost a fully self contained unit that only has to attach to the car at the subframe mounts.

Hey audio, thanks for your reply. I am very curious about your build. Do you have a thread up showing the process? Did you take pictures along the way?

I hear you about the E9X. The groan I let out measuring the width of the front mount on the trailing arms was pretty depressing. I can already tell it is going to be a complicated adaptation. I would do the E9X to be honest, except for a few things: Cost. I got the whole E46 rear end as shown in that photo for about 1200 bucks. Tough to beat that I think. And: I really want to be able to have FULL E46 underneath the hood and the car as a whole. I know it's doable, which is encouraging and exciting, and I'm not easily dissuaded by a challenging build.

Please let me know if you're willing to share more details on your E36 rear end job (how you modified the trailing arms, how the sub-frame matched up to the chassis, are your front and rear track widths different, how did you ensure/maintain alignment, etc). Also, what front end stuff are you running? Thank you.

PS This rear end really does make one salivate, doesn't it?

[audioscience10]

Here is my build. http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh....php?t=1952845

While it's down for the winter I plan on doing a set of tubular trailing arms.
Go ahead and give the thread a read. Feel free to ask any questions.

[Tom D]

.....You ride too? .....

currently in my stable

2002 R1150RS BMW
1984 R1000RT BMW
1973 750 bonneville triumph
1973 CB350 honda

i'm planning a six month tour of the pacific northwest in the next year or two and am looking hard at adding either a triumph 800 XC or a bmw 800 adv.

[brettkcherry]

Here is my build. http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh....php?t=1952845

While it's down for the winter I plan on doing a set of tubular trailing arms.
Go ahead and give the thread a read. Feel free to ask any questions.

I just read through the thread... what a journey! It looks awesome!

I have a few specific questions that I'll be posting on that thread. Thank you for the link.

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currently in my stable

2002 R1150RS BMW
1984 R1000RT BMW
1973 750 bonneville triumph
1973 CB350 honda

i'm planning a six month tour of the pacific northwest in the next year or two and am looking hard at adding either a triumph 800 XC or a bmw 800 adv.

Nice stable :-D

I'd love to ride along with you for parts of your PNW tour if you didn't mind. Hit me up when you get closer to it and know what your route will be taking.

[jjgbmw323]

Nice looking bikes and I wish you best of luck on the project. Just wondering where you found the E46 M3 Engine and Rear end and what you paid for them. How many miles on the engine?

[brettkcherry]

Nice looking bikes and I wish you best of luck on the project. Just wondering where you found the E46 M3 Engine and Rear end and what you paid for them. How many miles on the engine?

Thank you, the bikes are fun :-)

I got the motor and components from a place in Portland that specializes in wrecked last generation M cars. He is very thorough and only sells stuff that is completely sound (not messed up from the accident the car was in). Engine w/ 80k miles, including harness, oil cooler, radiator, accessories, etc was $3,200. No transmission. All the other parts (full rear end, and front end. Everything but the struts and springs) was $1,900.

I can PM your his contact info if you'd like.

[bassboy3313]

This is gonna be an epic build man! Definitely following this one. I too am doing a group 2 build. Mines a little (more like A LOT) more tame tho with a turbo m20b25 swap and custom rear end to accommodate e30 parts. I picked up some authentic original group 2 flares from a guy who used to race them back in the 80s and then picked up a repop front airdam piece from portugal. I also grabbed a fiberglass hood from the portugal guy as well that should arrive any week now. I too am am rider and gotta say I love that ducati!!! I own a 2006 Triumph Daytona 675 myself.

[Tom D]

triumph 675's are nothing to throw stones at. when they were new i looked at getting one, but passed for the same reason I've never owned a modern ducati, when it comes to speed i possess a total lack of self constraint.

[EauRouge2002]

Cool project. Looking forward to seeing it progress. I'm doing a similar swap but using the equivalent front end parts from an e36 - with an M42 that is. After second guessing myself on measurements, primarily where to mount the lower control arms to the frame rails, I decided to build a jig under an e36. The pic is self explanatory. I just have to connect the pieces and then I can transfer this jig to my e21. Not seen in this pic is that I'm also incorporating the front sway bar mounts into my jig.
f4089342-a659-41d8-ac61-0a11b7465a5a.jpg

[hotdish]

currently in my stable

2002 R1150RS BMW
1984 R1000RT BMW
1973 750 bonneville triumph
1973 CB350 honda

i'm planning a six month tour of the pacific northwest in the next year or two and am looking hard at adding either a triumph 800 XC or a bmw 800 adv.

I had no idea you had a honda twin, this summer I finished fixing up my dad's 74 cb200 and have been learning on it as my first bike.

All the other parts (full rear end, and front end. Everything but the struts and springs) was $1,900.

your're tempting me to "ruin" my brother's one owner 330ci...

[brettkcherry]

This is gonna be an epic build man! Definitely following this one. I too am doing a group 2 build. Mines a little (more like A LOT) more tame tho with a turbo m20b25 swap and custom rear end to accommodate e30 parts. I picked up some authentic original group 2 flares from a guy who used to race them back in the 80s and then picked up a repop front airdam piece from portugal. I also grabbed a fiberglass hood from the portugal guy as well that should arrive any week now. I too am am rider and gotta say I love that ducati!!! I own a 2006 Triumph Daytona 675 myself.

Wow, what a find on those flares! I'd love to see photos of them, do you have a build page? I considered purchasing from the Portugal guy, but I liked the style of the front airdam a bit better from the French people. He does a hood? Ebay?

Love those Daytonas, great bikes.

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Cool project. Looking forward to seeing it progress. I'm doing a similar swap but using the equivalent front end parts from an e36 - with an M42 that is. After second guessing myself on measurements, primarily where to mount the lower control arms to the frame rails, I decided to build a jig under an e36. The pic is self explanatory. I just have to connect the pieces and then I can transfer this jig to my e21. Not seen in this pic is that I'm also incorporating the front sway bar mounts into my jig.
f4089342-a659-41d8-ac61-0a11b7465a5a.jpg

So much second guessing, isn't there? That a really cool idea with the jig. Unfortunately I don't have a chassis to work off of. A buddy has an E46 M3 that I've been taking measurements off of, but he wouldn't let it be held up for the time it'd take to fab a nice jig :-(

Do you have a link to your build page? I'd like to see your progress.

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...your're tempting me to "ruin" my brother's one owner 330ci...

Do it! I'm sure he won't mind ;-)

It is amazing how much more "worth" you can get out of a car when you part it out.

[duuder]

very interested in how the body kit will look and fit

Group 2 flares and front lip proved very hard to find. There was nothing off the shelf domestically (I'm in Seattle) so I was forced to purchase from abroad. There were a couple options, I ended up getting a full set from MC Racing in France. Their product is great and arrived surprisingly fast. Their response time was not the best, usually a few days turn around time, but they are clearly fluent in English so nothing was "lost in translation." Prices, even on the shipping, were reasonable.

They sell a couple options for the E21, these flares were the "15 inch" wheel version. The front lip is designed to match up with the 13inch wheel version so you can see that it overlaps a bit on the end. Will need to be trimmed.

The rears add just over 4.5 inches of width and the fronts add just shy of 4 inches. With a slightly modified coilover placement I should be able to run 12 inch width wheel in the back.

[bassboy3313]

Wow, what a find on those flares! I'd love to see photos of them, do you have a build page? I considered purchasing from the Portugal guy, but I liked the style of the front airdam a bit better from the French people. He does a hood? Ebay? Love those Daytonas, great bikes.

Yeah. The guy lived in New York and had pretty much everything from the group 2 e21 he used to race. Including the wheels, suspension and even the M12 engine from it. I wish I had just won the lottery before contacting him. All I could afford were the flares at the time.

Yeah my project thread is here ..... http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...-Thread-Part-2

I just contacted him through ebay and asked about the hood. Then paid him through paypal directly, not through ebay account. That's how I bought the airdam as well. Takes a bit to ship, but the airdam came nicely packaged and done well too. Hoping the hood comes the same way.

Thanks! Here's mine

[jjgbmw323]

Thank you, the bikes are fun :-)

I got the motor and components from a place in Portland that specializes in wrecked last generation M cars. He is very thorough and only sells stuff that is completely sound (not messed up from the accident the car was in). Engine w/ 80k miles, including harness, oil cooler, radiator, accessories, etc was $3,200. No transmission. All the other parts (full rear end, and front end. Everything but the struts and springs) was $1,900.

I can PM your his contact info if you'd like.

Yes, please PM me. I have purchased an E46 M3 and I was thinking if I ever wanted to get an engine with low miles, maybe he would have one?

I am watching this build with excitement, I did a e30 to e21 center chop to run the e30 diff in the e21 subframe.

[westyftw]

G'day mate. Tony, the guy with the E46 front and rear in the E30. Cool looking project, be good to see it through.

Anyway, couple of things spring to mind.
First, think about getting rid of the E46 and get an E39 rear instead? It's self contained with only 4 mounting points.
Second, if you are really keen on the E46 rear, you're going to need to find a wreak and cut the rear floor from it. You'll need it from the start of the boot floor, over the arches, the two beam pieces that pick up the Z arm and and run to the sill and at least part of the rear seat area.

Here's a couple of pics to help visualise what the hell I'm on about

gallery_674_179_31082.jpgIMG_1477.JPGIMG_1479.JPGIMG_1480.JPGIMG_1527.JPG

Pics seem small so here's a link to the part of the thread where they are. The outer part of the cup that locates the Zarm will stick out past the body work/sill area so needs to be cut as far as possible and then the panel reattached with a slight flare out to clear.


http://bimmersport.co.nz/topic/23929-the-bastard-child/page-6




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As for the front end, with the E30 the centre of the inner mount of the control arm is the same spacing as the E36 and 46 so the cross member was moved forward to locate the wheel in the centre of the arch and the E46 rear mount was welded to the frame rail in place of the E30 one. I dont know how this relates to the E21?

The top of the strut was redrilled to suit the E46 top mount and adjustable camber plates used to, um, adjust camber ha. The strut mount only just fits in the offset position in the E30 strut housing. Coilovers with 60mm springs help with clearance.

Hopefully this is of some use! I'll check back as you go, see if there are anymore questions I might be able to help with.

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Also, traction control. Are you planning to use factory controllers or aftermarket?

[peteWine]

Subscribed!

[jrettenmeier]

I'll be watching this! Subbed.

Building an S50 E21, with a possible lead on a Group 2 kit. Seeing the kit on your car is really quite something. I'm glad I know it adds 4"+ all around.

Keep up the good work!

[brettkcherry]

I'll be watching this! Subbed.

Building an S50 E21, with a possible lead on a Group 2 kit. Seeing the kit on your car is really quite something. I'm glad I know it adds 4"+ all around.

Keep up the good work!

Thanks for the encouragement. Do you have a build thread?

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Well! I've been remiss in updating the thread here... and remiss in actually working on the car too. Holidays came and went and I've been on hold trying to acquire some parts that are necessary in measuring fitment of the front end.

S54 is in the house! Finally got the motor to my garage and started stripping it of the needless things, as well as in prep for rebuild.



It's amazing just how much STUFF has to come off this thing:



Moment of truth... fitting in the engine bay :-D



It's snug front to back as is. I'll be trimming some of the firewall for sure, where the cabin air motors used to reside. Still not sure if I'll have to mess with the transmission tunnel yet. Up front there's lots to trim and room to be had as a result. I'm still designing what to cut and what to keep (I don't really want to do a tubed front end but might have to make up something instead to help hold radiator, intercooler, lights, bumper, etc). PLENTY of room on the sides for exhaust, intake, turbo etc.



And finally: a VERY nice Christmas present from my girlfriend ;-)



So, goal for this week is to get the front crossmember aligned, measured and cut. I have a fairly good idea of how I want to modify it but am still quadruple checking on placement, as both the front control arms (and therefore the wheel location) and the motor need the x-member in just the right spot.

More photos and such to come...

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G'day mate. Tony, the guy with the E46 front and rear in the E30. Cool looking project, be good to see it through.

Anyway, couple of things spring to mind.
First, think about getting rid of the E46 and get an E39 rear instead? It's self contained with only 4 mounting points.
Second, if you are really keen on the E46 rear, you're going to need to find a wreak and cut the rear floor from it. You'll need it from the start of the boot floor, over the arches, the two beam pieces that pick up the Z arm and and run to the sill and at least part of the rear seat area.

Here's a couple of pics to help visualise what the hell I'm on about

gallery_674_179_31082.jpgIMG_1477.JPGIMG_1479.JPGIMG_1480.JPGIMG_1527.JPG

Pics seem small so here's a link to the part of the thread where they are. The outer part of the cup that locates the Zarm will stick out past the body work/sill area so needs to be cut as far as possible and then the panel reattached with a slight flare out to clear.


http://bimmersport.co.nz/topic/23929-the-bastard-child/page-6




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As for the front end, with the E30 the centre of the inner mount of the control arm is the same spacing as the E36 and 46 so the cross member was moved forward to locate the wheel in the centre of the arch and the E46 rear mount was welded to the frame rail in place of the E30 one. I dont know how this relates to the E21?

The top of the strut was redrilled to suit the E46 top mount and adjustable camber plates used to, um, adjust camber ha. The strut mount only just fits in the offset position in the E30 strut housing. Coilovers with 60mm springs help with clearance.

Hopefully this is of some use! I'll check back as you go, see if there are anymore questions I might be able to help with.

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Also, traction control. Are you planning to use factory controllers or aftermarket?

Westy, thank you for the great reply. I'm sorry I dragged you down from the NZ forum, I was just really hoping to get your input.

I am definitely going with the E46 rear. I know it'll be a bit more trouble but I really want all E46 running gear. I have access to doing exactly what you described, cutting out the floor of the E46, but I'm not quite sure that that is the route I want to go. I am feeling much more inclined to fabing a tubed rear structure that the subframe can mount to. Similar to this:



The front end spacing on the E21 is different than the E30 I'm thinking. The E46 crossmember mounting points are a whole 3 inches wider than the E21. As stated just above, I have a pretty good idea how how I'd like to cut the crossmember down, but have yet to pull that trigger. Are you using E46 coilovers? or E30? Did your ride height work out the way you wanted with an off the shelf coilover or did you need to customize?

I will be using the factory controller at the wheels for traction control. I'm going to be using AEM Infinity which should talk nicely to the E46 sensors. What did you use for traction control (if anything)?

Thanks again for your useful input.

[brettkcherry]

Got some small but relatively meaningful work done today. Namely, I was able to mock up all of the suspension components and the chassis in the positions they'll sit when completed. Up until this point a lot of the "E46 running gear" stuff was a huge question mark for me, not even sure if it would work as desired. Well... in short: it will. Beautifully actually.

Here is the car's finished ride height, about 4 inches to the pinch seam:





I'm REALLY happy with this. The car has been on jackstands for almost the entire time I've been working on it. Seeing it down low, as it should be, was a huge "oh my god, this is actually going to happen" moment for me.

Those are not the wheels or tires that I'll be using but they are the same height and circumference of the ones that will be used (this one shown here just to mock things up). The stock sheetmetal fenders will need some trimming of course.

The rearend is where things get a bit interesting. I finally cut out the spare tire area, something I'd been planning on since day one, and it offered some good perspective on what I'm working with to get this rearend in the proper place.

Before:



After:



Please ignore that the diff is placed a bit to the left. I snapped this photo after all my work was done and had to shimmy stuff around to get the garage door closed.

Anyway... The bottom of the diff is about 2 inches off the floor. The chassis is also resting on the top of the subframe. The diff/subframe assembly needs to come up another 3 inches to be at proper ride height which means coming 3 inches into the chassis itself. Because of this discrepancy its clear that I'm going to have to remove the seat back metal and more of the floor to build a tubed/boxed mounting structure that ties into the rollcage, similar to the photos I've posted before. It means more work, but it's the fun kind of work and the end result will be something truly robust and safe.



The front end will be 1000x easier than I anticipated. I had to stop mid process today in trimming down the crossmember but I now know that it'll plug right in without having to modify the chassis frame rails (yaaa!). Also, that I'll be able to use just most if not all of the stock mounting points for steering rack, motor mounts and control arms (double yaaa!). I'll be posting more pictures of the front end after I finish cutting up the x-member.

[westyftw]

The front end spacing on the E21 is different than the E30 I'm thinking. The E46 crossmember mounting points are a whole 3 inches wider than the E21. As stated just above, I have a pretty good idea how how I'd like to cut the crossmember down, but have yet to pull that trigger. Are you using E46 coilovers? or E30? Did your ride height work out the way you wanted with an off the shelf coilover or did you need to customize?

I will be using the factory controller at the wheels for traction control. I'm going to be using AEM Infinity which should talk nicely to the E46 sensors. What did you use for traction control (if anything)?

Thanks again for your useful input.

One of the things I found is that the E30/36/46 front crossmembers were all almost identical apart from the mounting arrangement. When I had the six in it I set out the position of the wheel and plundered the firewall for room. I'm using the Bilstein E46 PSS9 coil over and ride height is bang on for me.

Also, because I used the E46 wiring loom and all modules/sensors, ASC/ABS ect all worked as factory. Since moving to the E39 V8 the ASC/ABS ect still works as in it still communicates with various modules. I have however removed the ASC butterfly from the engine so ASC is solely controlled via whatever the ECU does with timing/fuel and stuff.

[DavidD123]

Your girlfriend bought you a CAE shifter!?!?

[brettkcherry]

Your girlfriend bought you a CAE shifter!?!?

lol, yup! She's pretty amazing :-D