4.6is M62B46 into '03 540it. From day one.

[TerraPhantm]

Can't link threads, but it has been tried before to the point where the car has been put back together with s62 and a slushbox, and they just couldn't get them to play nicely together

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Yeah I remember that one. That's because he tried to use the S62 DME, which has no provision for auto transmission computers. M62 DME tuned for S62 would probably work. I don't know if VANOS would work (exhaust vanos almost certainly would just have to be locked into a position or controlled separately). Knock control might be problematic too. But otherwise tuning the DME for an S62 doesn't seem impossible. Given enough time and money (two things I'm pretty short on these days), I think I could do it.

Ultimately it would be a lot of work just to have a shittier transmission. And at a certain point you might be better off with a standalone trying to mate with a more modern transmission.

[Plattus1000]

...and said block is out and you are good w notching pistons...

I wouldn't but someone might. That's a $2k discount for a little work.
If these were more common, I wouldn't have suggested it but you're correct, they fetch insane (by my standards) numbers for a clean/running engine.

[DUDMD]

Does make me wonder whether or not it'd be feasible to tune the M62 DME to run an S62 if one *really* wanted to keep the automatic. VANOS would be the hard part (especially exhaust), but in principle I think it would be possible.

Vanos Delete Kit and we can disable vanos in the software completely then, results in either tq loss or high end hp loss, up to how it's installed. Convert to regular TB and MAF setup to run full M62tu setup.

Another option is a standalone engine management out of the DME to run the engine, and factory DME still wired in and think it's working, so it can feed data to EGS. This way is much harder.

[geargrinder]

If one wanted to get super gnarly with IDA Pro and code hacking, maybe you could try to breakdown the SMG hooks from MSS54 and fold that into MSS52 code, hence creating an "SMG M5" ?

Not same as running the ZF Steptronic obviously but if you took it further you might be able to figure out if the same hooks could be used / tweaked to interface w/ the ZF EGS.
I'm assuming all that really needs to be enabled is CAN-bus data feeds to the EGS, and then hooks to listen for EGS and enable CAN-bus engine management responsiveness to inputs from the EGS.

I say "all that needs..." as if that's not a big deal. Relatively gargantuan reverse engineering task, for as mentioned, a relatively 'rare and undesirable configuration'... You'd need to figure out every SMG related input or output function, where it gets called, and then hook that into all the corresponding locations of the main MSS52 engine management code... Maybe it'd be easier to go the other way - start w/ MSS54 SMG and try to mod its core engine-management routines to handle S62? Either way, gargantuan hacker task...

[dannyzabolotny]

Yeah, an SMG might be more realistic, because the S62 would absolutely destroy a 5HP24 on the first spirited drive.

[blackknight530i]

If one wanted to get super gnarly with IDA Pro and code hacking, maybe you could try to breakdown the SMG hooks from MSS54 and fold that into MSS52 code, hence creating an "SMG M5" ?

Not same as running the ZF Steptronic obviously but if you took it further you might be able to figure out if the same hooks could be used / tweaked to interface w/ the ZF EGS.
I'm assuming all that really needs to be enabled is CAN-bus data feeds to the EGS, and then hooks to listen for EGS and enable CAN-bus engine management responsiveness to inputs from the EGS.

I say "all that needs..." as if that's not a big deal. Relatively gargantuan reverse engineering task, for as mentioned, a relatively 'rare and undesirable configuration'... You'd need to figure out every SMG related input or output function, where it gets called, and then hook that into all the corresponding locations of the main MSS52 engine management code... Maybe it'd be easier to go the other way - start w/ MSS54 SMG and try to mod its core engine-management routines to handle S62? Either way, gargantuan hacker task...

BMW M did it once. They made the 2000 X5 with S62, SMG and RWD. TerraPhantm and I figured they did just what you suspected and added the SMG components to the M5 transmission, then put the SMG code in the MSS54 to run the EGS. We suspect a lot of it might still be in the code, but without good maps of everything in the code, we just don't know. He thought it might be better to adapt the M3 MSS54 code to run 8 cylinders instead, since it already has the code for the SMG. If we figure out how to do that, shift lights might also be a possibility for every other M5 .

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[geargrinder]

Yeah, an SMG might be more realistic, because the S62 would absolutely destroy a 5HP24 on the first spirited drive.

Naawaybro. People give the S62 too much credit.

Blown M62's make bit more power than factory S62's and they do totally fine in Slushtronic E38's and E39's.

Innerwebz suggests its rated to 320 torques of input but its also been used w various M62TU's (4.6, 4.8 alpina..) exceeding that number. They're pretty strong when in good repair.

[dannyzabolotny]

Naawaybro. People give the S62 too much credit.

Blown M62's make bit more power than factory S62's and they do totally fine in Slushtronic E38's and E39's.

Innerwebz suggests its rated to 320 torques of input but its also been used w various M62TU's (4.6, 4.8 alpina..) exceeding that number. They're pretty strong when in good repair.

Then why is it only rated to 320? I guess they were underrated from the factory.

[redgtocruiser]

You'd have to talk to the reliability engineer that came up with the number. Too many factors to come up with an exact number. De-rate it and it lasts longer. Give it a higher rating and it lasts not as long. Driving style will play a large role. Towing or not towing and of course the weight of your own butt other passengers and gear. Regular fluid and filter changes and amount of high heat / high load cycles.

Its not like you give it 400 ft/lbs and it instantly breaks or falls apart. Once I get my 4.6 in I can start recording some reliability data of how its doing with close to 350 ft/lbs being applied. Keep in mind the 4.6is in the 2002-2003 X5 (I am pretty sure) uses the 5HP24. And to boot its a heavy vehicle with a tow rating.

Then why is it only rated to 320? I guess they were underrated from the factory.

[TerraPhantm]

If one wanted to get super gnarly with IDA Pro and code hacking, maybe you could try to breakdown the SMG hooks from MSS54 and fold that into MSS52 code, hence creating an "SMG M5" ?

Not same as running the ZF Steptronic obviously but if you took it further you might be able to figure out if the same hooks could be used / tweaked to interface w/ the ZF EGS.
I'm assuming all that really needs to be enabled is CAN-bus data feeds to the EGS, and then hooks to listen for EGS and enable CAN-bus engine management responsiveness to inputs from the EGS.

I say "all that needs..." as if that's not a big deal. Relatively gargantuan reverse engineering task, for as mentioned, a relatively 'rare and undesirable configuration'... You'd need to figure out every SMG related input or output function, where it gets called, and then hook that into all the corresponding locations of the main MSS52 engine management code... Maybe it'd be easier to go the other way - start w/ MSS54 SMG and try to mod its core engine-management routines to handle S62? Either way, gargantuan hacker task...

BMW M did it once. They made the 2000 X5 with S62, SMG and RWD. TerraPhantm and I figured they did just what you suspected and added the SMG components to the M5 transmission, then put the SMG code in the MSS54 to run the EGS. We suspect a lot of it might still be in the code, but without good maps of everything in the code, we just don't know. He thought it might be better to adapt the M3 MSS54 code to run 8 cylinders instead, since it already has the code for the SMG. If we figure out how to do that, shift lights might also be a possibility for every other M5 .

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As Paul mentioned, I do think that's totally feasible, and I think it would be easier to use the MSS54 as a starting point than the MSS52. MSS54 still appears to have all of the relevant 8 cylinder code, and it obviously has the SMG software itself.

The hard part would be the actual calibration. On the other hand, there are turbocharged M3 SMGs pushing 600+ hp seemingly without having to recalibrate the SMG, so perhaps it's just a matter of copying over the M5 fuel and spark tables and setting the DME to 8 cylinder mode.

[whiteghost1]

Naawaybro. People give the S62 too much credit.

Blown M62's make bit more power than factory S62's and they do totally fine in Slushtronic E38's and E39's.

Innerwebz suggests its rated to 320 torques of input but its also been used w various M62TU's (4.6, 4.8 alpina..) exceeding that number. They're pretty strong when in good repair.

Agreed. I'm running ~450 ft/lbs max through my 5HP24 for 1.5 years, so far it has not shown any signs of deterioration.

On a relevant 4.6 aside = I have a 4.6 motor where the piston and bore are toast = is there anything worth removing from the motor other than the cams before scrapping it?

[geargrinder]

As Paul mentioned, I do think that's totally feasible, and I think it would be easier to use the MSS54 as a starting point than the MSS52. MSS54 still appears to have all of the relevant 8 cylinder code, and it obviously has the SMG software itself.

The hard part would be the actual calibration. On the other hand, there are turbocharged M3 SMGs pushing 600+ hp seemingly without having to recalibrate the SMG, so perhaps it's just a matter of copying over the M5 fuel and spark tables and setting the DME to 8 cylinder mode.

OK so who's gonna fab up the SMG bellhousing so we can get this project going?

[blackknight530i]

OK so who's gonna fab up the SMG bellhousing so we can get this project going?

You don't need to fab anything. Just remove the shifter parts. You transfer the M3 SMG components over to the v8 transmission. I'm not sure if something would need to be done about the slave cylinder pin or not. Output flange may not fit under the shift actuator assembly, so might need a M3 flange, which is smaller, and therefore would require a custom driveshaft.

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[geargrinder]

BTW as more proof that the 5HP24 is underrated / conservatively rate...

The AWD version (5hp24A) is used in a bunch of VAG products with tons of bawlz.

A8's and Phaetons with 6L W12's making in excess of 400 of torques.
RS6 w/ twin-turbo V8 making similar torques.

True those are ltd editions but it also went in a whole host of high volume A6/A8 cars w/ V8's making in the 300/300 range. They die sometimes, I think the AWD is harder on them than just RWD applications, but there are plenty that keep running for a long time.

- - - Updated - - -

You don't need to fab anything. Just remove the shifter parts. You transfer the M3 SMG components over to the v8 transmission. I'm not sure if something would need to be done about the slave cylinder pin or not. Output flange may not fit under the shift actuator assembly, so might need a M3 flange, which is smaller, and therefore would require a custom driveshaft.

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SMG takes a different bell-housing - something about shift detents being different (I didn't do the BH work on the SMG delete I worked on... so I dunno exactly...) so you'd need to replicate that in the S62 BH and swap it over, right? Or is that what you're saying about removing some of the shifter parts?

[XAlt]

BTW as more proof that the 5HP24 is underrated / conservatively rate...

The AWD version (5hp24A) is used in a bunch of VAG products with tons of bawlz.

A8's and Phaetons with 6L W12's making in excess of 400 of torques.
RS6 w/ twin-turbo V8 making similar torques.

True those are ltd editions but it also went in a whole host of high volume A6/A8 cars w/ V8's making in the 300/300 range. They die sometimes, I think the AWD is harder on them than just RWD applications, but there are plenty that keep running for a long time.

- - - Updated - - -



SMG takes a different bell-housing - something about shift detents being different (I didn't do the BH work on the SMG delete I worked on... so I dunno exactly...) so you'd need to replicate that in the S62 BH and swap it over, right? Or is that what you're saying about removing some of the shifter parts?

Beefed up TCs make all the difference.

[blackknight530i]

BTW as more proof that the 5HP24 is underrated / conservatively rate...

The AWD version (5hp24A) is used in a bunch of VAG products with tons of bawlz.

A8's and Phaetons with 6L W12's making in excess of 400 of torques.
RS6 w/ twin-turbo V8 making similar torques.

True those are ltd editions but it also went in a whole host of high volume A6/A8 cars w/ V8's making in the 300/300 range. They die sometimes, I think the AWD is harder on them than just RWD applications, but there are plenty that keep running for a long time.

- - - Updated - - -



SMG takes a different bell-housing - something about shift detents being different (I didn't do the BH work on the SMG delete I worked on... so I dunno exactly...) so you'd need to replicate that in the S62 BH and swap it over, right? Or is that what you're saying about removing some of the shifter parts?

No, the opposite is required when converting a smg bh to manual bh, but going the other way is much easier as you just remover the lever that pushes on the detents in the manual bellhousing. The shift actuator doesn't want those centering springs working against it.

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[angeleye540i]

There's a few 4.6is engines on ebay now for around $4k http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?n...924042&alt=web There's one one there now for under $2k but they claim it runs rough but since you'll be dismantling it, you can put it together corrected and save a ton of $! But, there's also just the heads/cams for around $2,300 so if you already have a 4.4 block...

yeah which is intriguing don't get me wrong.. But the S62 is like less than that sometimes... Then we come to. But a new Ls4 crate is 450hp/430tq brand new for 4900$, or something close to that

[angeleye540i]

BMW M did it once. They made the 2000 X5 with S62, SMG and RWD. TerraPhantm and I figured they did just what you suspected and added the SMG components to the M5 transmission, then put the SMG code in the MSS54 to run the EGS. We suspect a lot of it might still be in the code, but without good maps of everything in the code, we just don't know. He thought it might be better to adapt the M3 MSS54 code to run 8 cylinders instead, since it already has the code for the SMG. If we figure out how to do that, shift lights might also be a possibility for every other M5 . Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

the Alpina Z8 had the 4.6 with an auto oddly enough, and not the S62, I was gonna say the Alpina z8 had an auto then I remembered it's a tuned up B46... More torque less HP and auto trans Z8, very odd direction but practical MAYBE?

Just get an Alpina Z8 tranny? Shouldn't be too hard lol...

Alpina has always been the civilized mans Performace car tho

[blackknight530i]

the Alpina Z8 had the 4.6 with an auto oddly enough, and not the S62, I was gonna say the Alpina z8 had an auto then I remembered it's a tuned up B46... More torque less HP and auto trans Z8, very odd direction but practical MAYBE?

Just get an Alpina Z8 tranny? Shouldn't be too hard lol...

Alpina has always been the civilized mans Performace car tho

What? Alpina Z8 had the 5hp24 and m62tub46, so what are you suggesting?

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[angeleye540i]

I was kind of sarcastically saying why not just use the Alpina trans hinting it was rare, but as it turns out it just uses the same as the Alpina B10, which I think is the 5hp... It just said it used a 5 speed BMW step, which is that... Anyway, if the Alpina z8 with tuned up torque beyond the s62, and the Alpina B10 with similar setup can handle it, along with all the SCd 540s I don't think there are too many issues with it.... Altho as we all know it all depends on the nut behind the wheel

[Plattus1000]

yeah which is intriguing don't get me wrong.. But the S62 is like less than that sometimes... Then we come to. But a new Ls4 crate is 450hp/430tq brand new for 4900$, or something close to that

I love m5 conversions, I'd love to do it one day and yes, Ls engines can be the best bang for the buck but both these options have hurdles that not everyone is prepared to jump. There are countless m5 conversions and Ls swaps sitting in yards and the dirty corners of crowded garages in the world: people bit off more than they could chew.
The 4.6is motor delivered ease of swap, more power/torque, the direct plug-n-play aspect plus I love the uniqueness and I don't plan to stop at just the motor swap.

Had I gone s62, I couldn't afford to do all the rest of the mods to make it a full conversion nor did I have the time.

With great mechanical skills and a proper working 4.6 engine sitting in a stand, the total swap should take around 4-5 hrs and you're driving as soon as fluids have been filled up. No coding for the computers, no transmission issues just more fun.

Quick and easy. The slow part for me was trying to refresh the 4.6 with good parts and make sure we did things correctly so I'd be able to leave the hood shut for a few years and not worry about the engine.

For someone looking for a fun mod that I think so far in a touring at least, I'm the only one, easy and fairly safe in a tu car.

Plus it's nice to stay brand specific sometimes and a 1000 hp Ls bimmer although really cool isn't quite cannon enough for some and that swap requires a ton of further mods to make it all work right and help one still feel that they're sitting in a nice German car. I'm guessing RAEV34 can tell you that it wasn't easy or cheap to accomplish that task.

[angeleye540i]

I'm Alls about keepin it in the Reich... Bavarian or bust... Just playing devils advocate... I've always kind of been against American swaps... I have too much GERMAN pride for that... And my phone automatically capitalizes GERMAN for
Some reason so I don't change it lol...

[TerraPhantm]

SMG takes a different bell-housing - something about shift detents being different (I didn't do the BH work on the SMG delete I worked on... so I dunno exactly...) so you'd need to replicate that in the S62 BH and swap it over, right? Or is that what you're saying about removing some of the shifter parts?

From what I've seen, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to do the reverse changes and create an SMG bell housing out of a manual. Basically remove a couple springs, a bearing, a couple detents, and plug the holes.

[dannyzabolotny]

I'm Alls about keepin it in the Reich... Bavarian or bust... Just playing devils advocate... I've always kind of been against American swaps... I have too much GERMAN pride for that... And my phone automatically capitalizes GERMAN for
Some reason so I don't change it lol...

I just don't really like American engines all that much. Sure, they're cheap horsepower but that's all it is to me. I hate the way they sound. I generally don't like American cars though, something about them feels so crude and half-assed, even with the newest ones.

[blackknight530i]

From what I've seen, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to do the reverse changes and create an SMG bell housing out of a manual. Basically remove a couple springs, a bearing, a couple detents, and plug the holes.

Couldn't you just remove the part that presses on the detents? I guess they might not stay in place then huh? Oh well. Yes, should be simple.

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