HWY vibration - running out of things to replace...

[cazal740i]

If it was a slipping TC you'd have a check-engine light with fault code.

You're on a wild goose chase. It's the wheel/tires, despite what the tire shop says. They can only do so much. Rotate your tires and go for a drive. (I know your Sport has staggered tires, but that's okay. It's just a test. Swap 'em back when you discover I'm right .)

Not so
I drove In with style 95's to a Shop 60 miles away. EBay wheel shop. My 7 was smooth getting there. Traded in my wheel/tires for a set of Style 32's
The car vibrated the whole way home. I was a noob and thought it would figure itself out.
Went to Tireman and they had the hunters road force wheel balancing machine. They shop guy told me why I was experiencing vibrations and show me the tire had tire patch issues. Uneven wear cause by skidding on a particular part of the tire. Left the tire un circular. They positioned the weights to offset it and low and behold the car drove butter smooth after. I'm speaking from experience not throwing junk out to say what ever

[TNe38s]

went to do the wheel swap this morning...was informed the OE wheel is bent...OMG - this is really testing my patience.

So, $30 for some quality aluminum hub rings to keep the Replica on or $150 to repair bent OEM wheel? what is best...i am not too hung up about spending the money, i want the best result. does repairing a bent wheel weaken it in any meaning full way? will the rings perform well enough that i wouldn't know the difference?

?

[blackknight530i]

went to do the wheel swap this morning...was informed the OE wheel is bent...OMG - this is really testing my patience.

So, $30 for some quality aluminum hub rings to keep the Replica on or $150 to repair bent OEM wheel? what is best...i am not too hung up about spending the money, i want the best result. does repairing a bent wheel weaken it in any meaning full way? will the rings perform well enough that i wouldn't know the difference?

?

Get the OE wheel straightened.

[blackknight530i]

My understanding is that the rep m-pars aren't forged, and therefore are heavier, making you have unequal wheel weights on the same axle. You're much better off making them all match.

[740iSport303]

+1 have the OE wheel repaired. No loss in structural integrity. I would spend a couple of bucks for the hub ring too, until you get the oem repaired.

[TNe38s]

My understanding is that the rep m-pars aren't forged, and therefore are heavier, making you have unequal wheel weights on the same axle. You're much better off making them all match.

i had not considered that...great point. I was leaning that way - just seemed like the best thing to do...have all the wheels match..

- - - Updated - - -

+1 have the OE wheel repaired. No loss in structural integrity. I would spend a couple of bucks for the hub ring too, until you get the oem repaired.

gonna try that...will be an interesting back to back on any potential differences...

[racer2086]

Good to read the progress. You could always buy another oem wheel. But as the others have suggested, get the oem fixed to have them all match. The after market wheels aren't made as well from all accounts.

[Bolidoendiablad]

Hello everyone,

I patiently read the whole thread hoping to get to the solution of the problem I also share with all of you.
I have replaced most of the parts mentioned by most ( well...Nick did most of the work while I was passing the beers ) with more or less success.
Every time I replaced something the car seemed to feel better but there's this vibration that doesn't want to go away completely.
To summarize; I can see my passenger seat shaking while driving on the highway and I tried replacing all four wheels, front end components, rear end components, guibo, center bearing, motor mounts, springs and shocks (on a set of kido coilovers now) but "that" vibration doesn't go away for good.
One thing I noticed, when I go on the highway and feel this harmonic vibration, I shift into N to see if it's tranny related, but the vibration is still there minus the load. I don't remember seeing anyone mentioning this, but if you did, my apologies for the repetition.
Racer; I believe you mentioned the harmonic balancer in you post and you've got me thinking...
I was amazed by the amount of folks experiencing the same, still unresolved, type of vibration...It can't be different problems for each car when we all seem to experience the same symptom...right? I almost thought this was more common in shorties but then I saw someone with an iL posting too.
Thanks to all for the information!

[racer2086]

Harmonic balancer is on the engine. If you shifted into N and it's still there, that's not the problem. I don't see that you've replaced the CV at the rear of the driveshaft. Is that in good shape?

Have you put the rear up on stands and run the car up to speed to feel for the vibration? If it is still there, then it's something on the car out of balance. If not, then might be a tire or suspension issue.

[Frankie]

...when I go on the highway...I shift into N to see if it's tranny related, but the vibration is still there...

Like the OP has discovered and as I mentioned in post #2, you're experiencing wheel/tire vibration. Whether you are prepared to accept this likelihood seems inversely proportional to how much money has been spent.

[NordmanMg]

Harmonic balancer is on the engine. If you shifted into N and it's still there, that's not the problem. I don't see that you've replaced the CV at the rear of the driveshaft. Is that in good shape?

Have you put the rear up on stands and run the car up to speed to feel for the vibration? If it is still there, then it's something on the car out of balance. If not, then might be a tire or suspension issue.

Plus HB would vibrate parked car with engine running as well

[racer2086]

Like the OP has discovered and as I mentioned in post #2, you're experiencing wheel/tire vibration. Whether you are prepared to accept this likelihood seems inversely proportional to how much money has been spent.

It could be many things, but tires are high on the list of possibilities. Like you mentioned earlier, it's not necessarily the balance that is off, but rather the runout of the tire on the rim that is excessive. Take it to a good shop with a Hunter GSP9700.

Plus HB would vibrate parked car with engine running as well

Correct. Revving the engine in park would expose a bad HB. Sometimes it's at a specific RPM. So best way is to slowly raise rpms feeling for any vibration. There should be none.

Of course, it could be the torque converter, since that is spinning with the crank. Easier in a MT car, when you just have the flywheel.

[NordmanMg]

Well he said he feel and see vibration on the seat, that's usually from rear wheels

[Frankie]

...Take it to a good shop with a Hunter GSP9700.

I hear this advice around forums and, while I don't mean to be a party pooper, I must say this is very impractical and unnecessary. I will go so far as to advise against it. If your wheels/tires can't be balanced by common machines, consider this a wake-up call that something is not right -- outside the scope of "normal". Pursuing specialized balance equipment is an attempt to mask the problem, not solve it.

For example, if you have a bent wheel balanced by a special machine, you are left in the dark. And like the OP discovered, a wild goose chase can result from being unaware of the need for hub-centric rings. These are problems that will only return unless dealt with.

[racer2086]

I hear this advice around forums and, while I don't mean to be a party pooper, I must say this is very impractical and unnecessary. I will go so far as to advise against it. If your wheels/tires can't be balanced by common machines, consider this a wake-up call that something is not right -- outside the scope of "normal". Pursuing specialized balance equipment is an attempt to mask the problem, not solve it.

For example, if you have a bent wheel balanced by a special machine, you are left in the dark. And like the OP discovered, a wild goose chase can result from being unaware of the need for hub-centric rings. These are problems that will only return unless dealt with.

I hear where you're coming from, but to a certain extent I disagree. No tire is 100% perfect, true and round. And in many cases, rims are not spot on either. Now we're talking about a very small amount of run out -- hundreths to tenths of inches. This machine is measuring the runout of the rim and the run out of the tire as related to the hub. It will instruct the operator to dismount the tire and where to place the tire so that overall runout between tire and rim is minimized. This could make a notable difference in that final "glassy smoothness" feel cruising down the road.

Obviously if you're dealing with 0.25"+ of runout then something is wrong. But that machine will tell you which it is.

As a buddy used to say: "you can balance a square, but that doesn't mean it will roll smoothly." A common machine can balance any wheel and tire. If the tire was manufactured to the far end of the tolerance spectrum and mounted on the plus side of the runout on the rim, then you may end up with some issues.

So, I don't disagree with you that something else could be wrong, but I don't find the GSP9700 to be a band aid either. The GSP9700 will give you the runout of the wheel and tire, which is the basis of diagnosing whether the wheel is bent or tire is bad. How else are you going to know unless you measure it with a dial indicator? That's what the machine is doing. The hub centric ring issue was an odd-ball case that should have been caught by whoever was balancing the tires.

[740iSport303]

The hub centric ring issue was an odd-ball case that should have been caught by whoever was balancing the tires.

I agree with what you are saying overall, but one issue is your last sentence. Very few tire shops actually have "experts" on site that would know and/or understand the hub-centric aspect and that the M-par he was installing was aftermarket and not OEM. So unless he was intelligent enough to notice the slop on installation to the hub and that it needed to be hub-centric, he would simply mount and send the customer on his way.

Personally, I would love to have basic tire shops know this type of information and be able to actually help a customer. But, unless they work on a lot of BMW's etc.. and pride themselves with having the proper knowledge, your not going to find that at places like America's Tire/Discount Tire, NBT, Sears, Big-O, etc... In most cases the kid installing and balancing is barely old enough to drive to begin with.

[TNe38s]

to update the status of my issue:

I learned my right rear wheel was a replica and hub ring was needed (which it did not have). I located my OEM wheel - later to learn was bent.

A friend loaned me a hub ring to use with the replica wheel while I addressed the bent OEM wheel. The addition of the hub ring did help - but did not solve my problem. More bewildering it now feels like the vibrations are coming from somewhere else, maybe even the front. Could the rear have been masking other vibrations? The OEM wheel has since been straightened.

We are going to find out for sure this week. I have a friend in the svc dept at the bmw dealer - they are going to mount the OEM tire/wheel combo and road force balance/inspect and report the run-out for all 4 wheels/tires.

as the saying goes...When you eliminate all other options no matter how likely/unlikely, the only one left has to be it...or something like that. So I am going to bet that Frankie is correct and it is a Tire issue. I have had this experience before - some cheap tires were installed on my mothers e39 - no one could ever get it right. BMW dealer told me they were border line being in spec. TireRack to their credit took them back -we installed better tires and everything has been great since. I spoke to TireRack again regarding my issue. I am still within the 1 year from purchase and if I can demonstrate some of the tires are questionable, they will exchange or take them all back. TireRack is great...

Everything else has been addressed and has been double checked to be in good shape.

For those keeping score the tires are: 255/45ZR-18 Kumho Ecsta LX Platinum (Qty:2) and
235/50ZR-18 Kumho Ecsta LX Platinum (Qty:2)

I have been quite pleased with these tires - quiet, smooth, good wet grip. This is the same tire that went on the E39 that performed so well. Which is why I chose these. But since my car is a Sport model, it might be more sensitive and that might mean i need to upgrade tires. I hope to have the answer to my issue - by weeks end. Maybe this will be helpful for someone else.

[racer2086]

I agree with what you are saying overall, but one issue is your last sentence. Very few tire shops actually have "experts" on site that would know and/or understand the hub-centric aspect and that the M-par he was installing was aftermarket and not OEM. So unless he was intelligent enough to notice the slop on installation to the hub and that it needed to be hub-centric, he would simply mount and send the customer on his way.

Personally, I would love to have basic tire shops know this type of information and be able to actually help a customer. But, unless they work on a lot of BMW's etc.. and pride themselves with having the proper knowledge, your not going to find that at places like America's Tire/Discount Tire, NBT, Sears, Big-O, etc... In most cases the kid installing and balancing is barely old enough to drive to begin with.

Yeah, you're right. No one is "trained" on that. However, I would have imagined after he mounted 3 OEM tires that fit nicely and then the fourth that was loose, sloppy, and hard to keep on the car until the lugs were in place, he would go, "hmm what's different about this one?". But in the end, people are lazy and don't think that much into it. The main reason why I work on my own car. Wish I had my own tire equipment, and I'd do that too!

We are going to find out for sure this week. I have a friend in the svc dept at the bmw dealer - they are going to mount the OEM tire/wheel combo and road force balance/inspect and report the run-out for all 4 wheels/tires.

Glad to hear the progress. Keep us up to date. Post the runout numbers...I'm curious. I have mine somewhere when I had BMW road force balance my tires. I had them do the fronts, which helped but there was still something. Then I had them do the rears, and that made a huge difference. They also confirmed that I had no bent rims, which was good to know.

Honestly, I was impressed by the dealer. They seemed to be the only ones that actually use their balancing machine to it's potential, check the runout, and remount the tire in the most ideal place. They gave me the runout numbers at the end.

[quakefiend420]

to update the status of my issue:

I learned my right rear wheel was a replica and hub ring was needed (which it did not have). I located my OEM wheel - later to learn was bent.

A friend loaned me a hub ring to use with the replica wheel while I addressed the bent OEM wheel. The addition of the hub ring did help - but did not solve my problem. More bewildering it now feels like the vibrations are coming from somewhere else, maybe even the front. Could the rear have been masking other vibrations? The OEM wheel has since been straightened.

We are going to find out for sure this week. I have a friend in the svc dept at the bmw dealer - they are going to mount the OEM tire/wheel combo and road force balance/inspect and report the run-out for all 4 wheels/tires.

as the saying goes...When you eliminate all other options no matter how likely/unlikely, the only one left has to be it...or something like that. So I am going to bet that Frankie is correct and it is a Tire issue. I have had this experience before - some cheap tires were installed on my mothers e39 - no one could ever get it right. BMW dealer told me they were border line being in spec. TireRack to their credit took them back -we installed better tires and everything has been great since. I spoke to TireRack again regarding my issue. I am still within the 1 year from purchase and if I can demonstrate some of the tires are questionable, they will exchange or take them all back. TireRack is great...

Everything else has been addressed and has been double checked to be in good shape.

For those keeping score the tires are: 255/45ZR-18 Kumho Ecsta LX Platinum (Qty:2) and
235/50ZR-18 Kumho Ecsta LX Platinum (Qty:2)

I have been quite pleased with these tires - quiet, smooth, good wet grip. This is the same tire that went on the E39 that performed so well. Which is why I chose these. But since my car is a Sport model, it might be more sensitive and that might mean i need to upgrade tires. I hope to have the answer to my issue - by weeks end. Maybe this will be helpful for someone else.

I had some Pirellis once that would cause vibration depending on the tire temp. Had them road forced and everything and never could get them right. Finally ended up replacing them under warranty and my vibrations were gone. Spent a good long while trying to track the issue, since I had been assured multiple times that the wheels/tires were in balance and it had been done at more than one shop including the dealer. As soon as I replaced them, BAM all buttery smooth.

[Bolidoendiablad]

It could be many things, but tires are high on the list of possibilities. Like you mentioned earlier, it's not necessarily the balance that is off, but rather the runout of the tire on the rim that is excessive. Take it to a good shop with a Hunter GSP9700.



Correct. Revving the engine in park would expose a bad HB. Sometimes it's at a specific RPM. So best way is to slowly raise rpms feeling for any vibration. There should be none.

Of course, it could be the torque converter, since that is spinning with the crank. Easier in a MT car, when you just have the flywheel.

I'll try to rev the engine in park to see if I still feel that vibration. I do have a decent set of E39 M Pars with the hubrings and as I said before, I replaced all four tires and of course balanced them.
I heard before that our cars are very sensitive to tire pressure too, but I've checked that already.
I will eventually move to 20"s and keep the M Pars for winter so when that time comes I will be able to tell whether there is a significant difference between both sets.

[TNe38s]

to update the status of my issue:

I learned my right rear wheel was a replica and hub ring was needed (which it did not have). I located my OEM wheel - later to learn was bent.

A friend loaned me a hub ring to use with the replica wheel while I addressed the bent OEM wheel. The addition of the hub ring did help - but did not solve my problem. More bewildering it now feels like the vibrations are coming from somewhere else, maybe even the front. Could the rear have been masking other vibrations? The OEM wheel has since been straightened.

We are going to find out for sure this week. I have a friend in the svc dept at the bmw dealer - they are going to mount the OEM tire/wheel combo and road force balance/inspect and report the run-out for all 4 wheels/tires.

as the saying goes...When you eliminate all other options no matter how likely/unlikely, the only one left has to be it...or something like that. So I am going to bet that Frankie is correct and it is a Tire issue. I have had this experience before - some cheap tires were installed on my mothers e39 - no one could ever get it right. BMW dealer told me they were border line being in spec. TireRack to their credit took them back -we installed better tires and everything has been great since. I spoke to TireRack again regarding my issue. I am still within the 1 year from purchase and if I can demonstrate some of the tires are questionable, they will exchange or take them all back. TireRack is great...

Everything else has been addressed and has been double checked to be in good shape.

For those keeping score the tires are: 255/45ZR-18 Kumho Ecsta LX Platinum (Qty:2) and
235/50ZR-18 Kumho Ecsta LX Platinum (Qty:2)

I have been quite pleased with these tires - quiet, smooth, good wet grip. This is the same tire that went on the E39 that performed so well. Which is why I chose these. But since my car is a Sport model, it might be more sensitive and that might mean i need to upgrade tires. I hope to have the answer to my issue - by weeks end. Maybe this will be helpful for someone else.

I dropped my car off at the local BMW Dealer last Thursday. I am very fortunate that I have a good friend who is in the service department and always does what ever he can to help. So thanks! Went on an extended drive with Shop foreman - he drove, went for a hwy ride. His initial impressions were that the vibes did not feel like tires, because you felt it more in the car than coming from the wheels.

Got the call on Friday that they believe the problem was in fact the tires and they believe to have removed the hwy vibes. How can this be? I have had the tires balanced at least twice, supposedly road force once, what gives? I hate to say it, but the difference must be the quality of the work and the level of pride one takes in doing a good job vs. just doing a job.

The tires were most recently balanced (road forced supposedly) less than two weeks ago. They told every thing was fine.

Not only where they not balanced, there was one tire checked higher (road force) than considered acceptable by the dealer.

All the tires required a rebalance, the right front had a RF of 26 pounds. All the others 12 pounds or less. the dealer says the shoot for 22 or less. By moving the tire around on the rim, they got the right front down to 10 pounds.

I am told tires are almost never perfectly round, and "out of round" of at least this one tire was enough to send oscillating waves thru the car.

Up to about 65 MPH the car is smooth as glass, there is a very slight bit of vibration at 75+, but its exponentially better and I can live with it. I think they did the best that could done with the tires provided. Would I have had this problem if I had purchased more expensive/different brand of tires? Perhaps or perhaps not, but I have been part of 2 separate instances where tire construction can have a huge impact on ride quality.

My friend at the dealer told me BMW's are more sensitive that "most" cars and they have the fewest issues with Michelin tires (Indie shop says the same thing). Lesson, buy the best tires you can afford....

I don't know if this will help those with similar issues - but I can say for sure, not all balance work is created equal. it might be worth having another tech check your tires to see if your balance job was up to par.

[racer2086]

^^This is exactly what the Hunter is good for. But, the road force machine is only as good as the guy operating it. Sounds like the first shop didn't move the tire on the rim as they were supposed to. I'm glad you improved it. I've been happy getting my tires balanced at BMW, because they actually do it right.

My car feels the same way...smooth as glass up to about 70, then you can feel a little something that comes and goes based on the day/weather. But it is hardly an issue for a car with 194k miles. For me, it's probably something minor with the driveshaft, engine mounts, or (most likely) torque converter, which will get taken care of when something fails.

[Frankie]

Don't want to say I told you so...

[TNe38s]

Don't want to say I told you so...

It's perfectly appropriate to do so! You were right and I am glad you were...I was going to be very disappointed not to be able to resolve this. all the remaining possibilities were unpleasant and expensive...

Sometimes I (perhaps we) am reluctant to accept the "simple " solutions. Maybe that comes from chasing down all the weird stuff that happens to old, highly engineered cars?

[clivesay]

Resurrecting an old thread but thank you very much. I just got new tires and I am seeing something similar. The guy that owns the shop told me the car drove great so I picked it up and I am seeing a slight vibration at 45-55 then smooth then vibration again near 80. I think he has an older machine and not sure about some of his guys so wondering if I need to find a place with someone who takes tire balancing serious.