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Thread: Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??

  1. #176
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    since you are people wo understand alot about supercharging, i have a question. is supercharger and turbocharger pressure the same ? i mean, if you run 5psi with a supercharger and get alot of power how can i be that a turbocharger needs about 10psi or something like that to get a good plus in power. or does it only just seem to me like that ?

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by samy01 View Post
    since you are people wo understand alot about supercharging, i have a question. is supercharger and turbocharger pressure the same ? i mean, if you run 5psi with a supercharger and get alot of power how can i be that a turbocharger needs about 10psi or something like that to get a good plus in power. or does it only just seem to me like that ?
    Cliff Notes:
    Motors make power with Air, Fuel, Spark, and Compression with right Timing.
    If you use some sort of air compressor to cram more air into the motor AND you make matching changes of more Fuel and Spark Timing, you will make more power.

    Turbos are air compressors powered by spent exhaust gas energy spinning a turbine wheel that spins a compressor wheel.
    Superchargers are air compressors powered by a crankshaft-driven belt that spins either a compressor wheel (centrifugal type), a pair of lobed rotors (Roots type), or a pair of twisted lobe rotors (Twinscrew type) that compress the air.

    Turbos are more efficient because they use otherwise wasted energy spewing out tailpipe, but only at medium to high RPMs because at low RPMS there's not enough spent exhaust gas energy to do alot of air compressing.
    Superchargers, especially Roots and twinscrew, usually do better at low to medium RPMs because their mechanical rotors still compress the air - but they use up a certain chunk of the motor's power output from the crank to do this.

    The key point about your question is that your research is far from complete if you think a 5psi supercharger and a 10psi turbo are equal at all.
    You need to define "good power" and go look at dyno charts.

    In Depth:
    Go to the library and look up author Corky Bell.
    He wrote the two definitive books on this subject, Supercharged! and Maximum Boost.
    Eat, drink, and be merry - for tomorrow we drive.

  3. #178
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    I am wanting to revamp the Anarchy Eaton Plate concept, to allow it to bolt onto the existing public usage, V2.1 'German Girl' brackets and accept the M90 & M112 Supercharger.

    Should I succeed, I will call it the V3 Firebred.

    Will already has designs on how to produce the simple bracket to mount the eaton on the other side, however thats the dual eaton setup, that public wont see anytime soon although new Patten's will be obtained on top of the previous.

    Meanwhile, I am thinking to start a kickstarter fundraiser to raise a few thousand bucks to put into R&D, Should all fail, I will bring it out of my own pocket as usual.

    Thoughts?
    "So we've come to the conclusion that BMW just has parts laying around they decide to throw on cars for no reason."

    Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??



  4. #179
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    Hey, trying to recall what the thoughts were from the collective running the Eatons, given that most of them come with a long snout. Was the idea to replace that long one, or was it going to mount farther back?

  5. #180
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    farther back
    "So we've come to the conclusion that BMW just has parts laying around they decide to throw on cars for no reason."

    Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??



  6. #181
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    Hi,

    I'm Canadian and the M90/M62 are for sure the most available junkyard superchargers. If you design a braket Ill be interested and can machine them myself. I have an M50NV with M54 stroker. I would like to make about 8-10 psi. I was planning on installing a water/meth injection kit. Do you guys think I should still get a FMI to prevent detonation or would the injection kit lower the intake temps enough?
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterM52 View Post
    Due to the semi success of my SC14 Supercharger Build.

    I am proud to announce that finally due to much demand, I might soon try to start work on EATON M90/M112/M122 Supercharger Bracket Designs for the M5X and S5X Family of Motors.

    I call it...

    The HMW Anarchy Plate

    Now the word Anarchy is not itself a bad word that its put out to be, its more so people of various backgrounds working together for commonality without having big brother governance so to speak, and it may be the perfect word for it since not only the bracket will look like the English Letter "A", However the fact that although I may have been inspired with this idea, the work of the final designs and its development may not be done at my hands at all.

    Anyhow, I would like to request those who have any experience, to as of the type of Eaton most commonly found or rather most readily available to you (Consider Part Sellers, Junkyard Finds, Ebay Etc), and also tell me the cars they are off, and finally the design (snout size, small or long etc), and as always any pics and ideas would be appreciated.

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundgarden View Post
    Hi,

    I'm Canadian and the M90/M62 are for sure the most available junkyard superchargers. If you design a braket Ill be interested and can machine them myself. I have an M50NV with M54 stroker. I would like to make about 8-10 psi. I was planning on installing a water/meth injection kit. Do you guys think I should still get a FMI to prevent detonation or would the injection kit lower the intake temps enough?
    Hi there! The current setup is already 10 - 12PSI Capable. But I want to start the eaton project mainly because well the SC14's are getting harder to come by.

    I already have bracket plans that fit the eaton to the M5x motors, however those require relocation of the aircon, unlike my SC14 kits; which is fine for a race car but not for a street car, I want minimal strain on the client and so I am really thinking of making a public access version based on the Anarchy concept. But basically I want my clients to be able to upgrade to eatons without having to throw out the existing bracket they have, so a bit more complexity. FMIC would really help, I have run my own setup purely with water injection, with a good tune, on US 93 (NZ 98) WI will prevent any pre detonation and adds quite a bit to the power curve I noticed, specially a bit pre compressor.
    "So we've come to the conclusion that BMW just has parts laying around they decide to throw on cars for no reason."

    Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??



  8. #183
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    Yes that makes sense of course. Ive just completed a suspension overhaul but this has convinced me to drop the idea of a complex turbo and go with a simple supercharger set up. It is a daily driver after all and considering Im at 195whp right now, 12 psi would put me right around 300 whp. Thats about maxing out the stock drivetrain.

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterM52 View Post
    Hi there! The current setup is already 10 - 12PSI Capable. But I want to start the eaton project mainly because well the SC14's are getting harder to come by.

    I already have bracket plans that fit the eaton to the M5x motors, however those require relocation of the aircon, unlike my SC14 kits; which is fine for a race car but not for a street car, I want minimal strain on the client and so I am really thinking of making a public access version based on the Anarchy concept. But basically I want my clients to be able to upgrade to eatons without having to throw out the existing bracket they have, so a bit more complexity. FMIC would really help, I have run my own setup purely with water injection, with a good tune, on US 93 (NZ 98) WI will prevent any pre detonation and adds quite a bit to the power curve I noticed, specially a bit pre compressor.
    Are you concerned with the water causing any issue with the blower long term? And what system are you using?

  10. #185
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    I would assume the water injection would be post charger. But also if you didnt mind the rebuild pre charger would be ok. Rebuild interval would probably not change as much as you would think btwn pre and post injection. I plan on using intercooler instead with a possible NOSe drizzle.
    Nobody would recertify these machines after somebody screwed with them without any visibility into what they did.

    HONK! HONK! Clown car coming through!

    -Oakdizzle

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill837 View Post
    Are you concerned with the water causing any issue with the blower long term? And what system are you using?

    Post Charger would be the better place, but as you can see I got one pre charger as well which eventually will wear off lobe coatings, but no big deal, the boost would remain pretty consistent.

    My system is a half home brew, using some old aquamist racepump, a couple nozzles I bought, a hobbs type pressure switch set to come around 5 psi. Some relays; plumatic connectors, a nice angle eye led switch where the red ring glows when water injection turns on. Thats all really. Oh, and using a modified 3L windscreen reservoir. At trunk of the car.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by soundgarden View Post
    Yes that makes sense of course. Ive just completed a suspension overhaul but this has convinced me to drop the idea of a complex turbo and go with a simple supercharger set up. It is a daily driver after all and considering Im at 195whp right now, 12 psi would put me right around 300 whp. Thats about maxing out the stock drivetrain.
    happy to help, happy holidays, stay in touch
    "So we've come to the conclusion that BMW just has parts laying around they decide to throw on cars for no reason."

    Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??



  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderg0d View Post
    I would assume the water injection would be post charger. But also if you didnt mind the rebuild pre charger would be ok. Rebuild interval would probably not change as much as you would think btwn pre and post injection. I plan on using intercooler instead with a possible NOSe drizzle.
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterM52 View Post
    Post Charger would be the better place, but as you can see I got one pre charger as well which eventually will wear off lobe coatings, but no big deal, the boost would remain pretty consistent.

    My system is a half home brew, using some old aquamist racepump, a couple nozzles I bought, a hobbs type pressure switch set to come around 5 psi. Some relays; plumatic connectors, a nice angle eye led switch where the red ring glows when water injection turns on. Thats all really. Oh, and using a modified 3L windscreen reservoir. At trunk of the car.

    - - - Updated - - -



    happy to help, happy holidays, stay in touch
    Yeah, I noted you had mentioned the pre blower injection, that is why I asked. Unlike a trubo, which gets so hot that pre seems like a really bad idea, the supercharger runs a lot cooler. Only issuesI see is the erosion issue, possible bearing lube issues (i dont have a good feel for that seal and how much it keeps outside moisture out of the bearing from the inside. And I know that experienced folks might just know it's not a worry, I'm just brainstorming. Occupational hazard when you work in and around flight test.

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill837 View Post

    Unlike a trubo, which gets so hot that pre seems like a really bad idea, the supercharger runs a lot cooler.
    Wrong
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
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  14. #189
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    No issues with injecting before the turbo? Or are you saying the supercharger runs a lot cooler?

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill837 View Post
    No issues with injecting before the turbo? Or are you saying the supercharger runs a lot cooler?
    Injecting pre turbo is fine, I wouldn't say S/Cer's run cooler. Especially those that are self contained. Most turbos are oil cooled and water cooled.
    Very few self contained, Comp turbo has an oil less turbo, but not sure how they do.
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    Injecting pre turbo is fine, I wouldn't say S/Cer's run cooler. Especially those that are self contained. Most turbos are oil cooled and water cooled.
    Very few self contained, Comp turbo has an oil less turbo, but not sure how they do.
    I agree that bearing temps, where your cooling is focused on a turbo, is most likely similar to the temps on a self contained S/C. I was thinking more of the housing and wheels in the turbo being much hotter than the supercharger rotors. But that's just supposition on my part, based on the fact that one sticks into the hot exuast stream and one does not.

  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill837 View Post

    I agree that bearing temps, where your cooling is focused on a turbo, is most likely similar to the temps on a self contained S/C. I was thinking more of the housing and wheels in the turbo being much hotter than the supercharger rotors. But that's just supposition on my part, based on the fact that one sticks into the hot exuast stream and one does not.
    Maybe the turbine housing will be hot, but that's about it.
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  18. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill837 View Post
    I agree that bearing temps, where your cooling is focused on a turbo, is most likely similar to the temps on a self contained S/C. I was thinking more of the housing and wheels in the turbo being much hotter than the supercharger rotors. But that's just supposition on my part, based on the fact that one sticks into the hot exuast stream and one does not.
    Well for the record we have tried to make cooling addition to the blowers like SC14/Eatons with AUX Oil pump & rad with extra oil to cool the gearing/bearings and what have you, but that only can help so little, the real heat comes from your rotors, the lobes will expand and spinning tens of thousands of times with micromm of clearance/eventual friction, and another part of heat is not having adequate sized by pass valve, compressed air no where to go or recirculate properly. Now a Supercharger with a cooling jacket or body made with similar function to a water cooled engine with a front mount rad and all would be the best thing, but those are not the case for 99% of blowers you have on the market. I would say considering the advancements of Turbo & Engine technologies, cooling, efficiencies this and that, Superchargers have not seen much research into them for a long time, the twin screws are well highly priced for the top tier folk, information is out there that people dont want to share or document right. Looking at the Eaton TVS2 Superchargers, look how far they have come..if car industry had wanted to put the effort to put more R&D into blowers, then more then half the issues we see with them as above, would be non existent.

    But all that is just going into detail. End of the day the heat is not unmanageable; the above would just make things much much better, but as it is..blowers work just fine, keeping the boost low in that regard even without water injection have done plenty of highway miles. a Proper tune would still make night and day difference. The bearings will do fine, Its just such a fine mist of water, it settles in well in the hot blower IMHO. But yea, do get your point there
    Last edited by MisterM52; 12-18-2016 at 09:24 PM.
    "So we've come to the conclusion that BMW just has parts laying around they decide to throw on cars for no reason."

    Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??



  19. #194
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    Any plate sandwich IC you could adapt from the used junkyard market? How did OEM intercool positive displacement blowers? Usually air to water, built into intake manifold?

  20. #195
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    I was actually going to build and sell Inter cooler kits for these was thinking similar to the RMS setup using air to water to air; but then the friend who used to let me use the local shop with all the tools, left his job (old air force pilot had enough of working min wages and taking bs from the higher ups).

    The OEM used a tiny little intercooler for them, air to air. there is plenty of room actually to put a air to air in, just dont have any place/tools to really work with & fabricate things.

    Lastly I asked Spyder/Will to make a RMS Style Intake Manifold that goes in place of the stock one. He said he was working on it with his ITB Setup.

    Once I finish my eaton setup, (if I ever finish it - currently looking for a engine lift & a engine locally) then it will solve a lot of issues including addition of inter cooler on the go.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here's another shipped a few days ago,
    the one going into the 24hour american endurance racing.

    happy holidays gentlemen!

    2016-12-14-1294.jpg
    "So we've come to the conclusion that BMW just has parts laying around they decide to throw on cars for no reason."

    Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??



  21. #196
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    Has anyone tried fitting the Sc14 kits to a M50 swapped e30?

  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterM52 View Post

    Lastly I asked Spyder/Will to make a RMS Style Intake Manifold that goes in place of the stock one. He said he was working on it with his ITB Setup.
    This would be a great part. I remember when I was centrifugal supercharged, I wanted a chargecooler manifold. RMS made only one or two for E36. The do make them for E46M3s as did some of the other supercharger kit makers, and it is also popular with E92M3s. But nothing for E36M3s.

    One problem is cost. Most of these use slide in cores though some are welded in. The cores are the standard 3.5 or 4.5 inch square blocks that come in varying lengths (2 may need to be joined). The total package is not cheap, but if somehow, you could come up with a kit that was $1500 and had proven results even with turbo airflow levels, you might get some buyers. Its too easy for the turbo guys to go cheaper air to air, but some might be interested or there could be an odd fitment where space is limited. The supercharger market is the better one.

    The cores might be $200, the pump maybe $100, the fittings and hoses maybe $100, and radiator maybe $200. That leaves $900 for the manifold made to fit the cores and the car and I am not sure it can be done in this country for that amount. You would want to make one and have it copied in china, but would have to order $10k worth of them for that.

    Likely not going to happen. Spyder's ITB project never went anywhere beyond ideas and maybe cutting a plastic manifold in half.

  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    This would be a great part. I remember when I was centrifugal supercharged, I wanted a chargecooler manifold. RMS made only one or two for E36. The do make them for E46M3s as did some of the other supercharger kit makers, and it is also popular with E92M3s. But nothing for E36M3s.

    One problem is cost. Most of these use slide in cores though some are welded in. The cores are the standard 3.5 or 4.5 inch square blocks that come in varying lengths (2 may need to be joined). The total package is not cheap, but if somehow, you could come up with a kit that was $1500 and had proven results even with turbo airflow levels, you might get some buyers. Its too easy for the turbo guys to go cheaper air to air, but some might be interested or there could be an odd fitment where space is limited. The supercharger market is the better one.

    The cores might be $200, the pump maybe $100, the fittings and hoses maybe $100, and radiator maybe $200. That leaves $900 for the manifold made to fit the cores and the car and I am not sure it can be done in this country for that amount. You would want to make one and have it copied in china, but would have to order $10k worth of them for that.

    Likely not going to happen. Spyder's ITB project never went anywhere beyond ideas and maybe cutting a plastic manifold in half.
    Well, Spyder is being quite useless, here I have an engine and still no blower, then again most people dont understand business or money, I might have to work with a new partner or two to get this going, but I will get this going, with help or without it. Josh was willing to help but he couldnt find any blowers, I kept him waiting just on Spyder who never got back..I am not really keen on the ITB's, but a manifold that can mount a nice blower as well as double as being a air to water to air cooler would been so nice, but alas, as I said..not much help and being in NZ where I am, doesn't help anything. So right now I am more so keen on bringing out the Eaton blower brackets this year, I will leave it so that even the tvs eatons & kenbells can be mounted, that will be my last work for supercharging these cars, after which I will be headed back to EU where bmws are LHD, cigarettes are cheaper, whiskey tastes better and women prettier and more available for my purposes and sunshine.

    But by hook or crook, I will get this done, keep an eye out.

    PS: Sent some brackets the other day to an local client still have 2 more kits to send out this month that were delayed due to holidays.

    2017-01-06-1316.jpg
    Last edited by MisterM52; 01-08-2017 at 03:28 AM.
    "So we've come to the conclusion that BMW just has parts laying around they decide to throw on cars for no reason."

    Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??



  24. #199
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    It appears that, for the Dallas/Fort Worth area anyway, the era of OEM Eaton Roots superchargers being "plentiful", common, or available at all in salvage yards are over. The jolly redneck behind the counter of the Ford-only yard laughed out loud when I inquired about the Thunderbird units, and at all the other yards my inquiries for the Grand Prix and Monte Carlo grails were met with rueful smiles and head shakes "Sorry, no." I even asked after the Mercedes Kompressors, despite the internet prices being twice the American ones, but nobody had any.

    There's a rebuilt Buick one on Craigslist for $300, and a long-snout M90 that most likely needs a rebuild for $110. I plan to call on that one once I get back from traveling for work.

  25. #200
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    anybody try this on a s52 mcoupe?
    Looks pretty tight space wise.

    This looks very intriguing!

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