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Thread: Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??

  1. #301
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    Costs, tuning, dyno and the market should pickup.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    Costs, tuning, dyno and the market should pickup.
    True story

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  3. #303
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    I don't think a m122 on a M50 will get anywhere near 650whp, or even 550. Personally I don't think it will make even 400whp on an m50. A gt3582r on a m50 at 18 psi with m3 cams and 93 octane and decent tuning is about a 400whp car.
    I hope I'm wrong.
    1996 332IS
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    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
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  4. #304
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    Thumbs up

    Dyno's are next on the Agenda on a NA Motor.


    For the record, The M122H has more flow than a GT35R, Its OEM proven to support 650HP on the Shelby GT500 Mustangs. Dont know that much about Turbos but in practice. If it can push a 5.8L v8 DOHC Motor thats NA 380HP to 650HP. Should have headroom for a 3L I6 BMW at 200 - 300HP.


    GT35R 800 - 900CFM ~ 475HP at 1 Bar.
    M122H 1100 - 1200 CFM 650HP 2.1 drive.
    (divide by 1.67 to get HP output)

    So it is capable, depends how much boost you run,
    And we saw 360WHP+ from an SC14. Car #3 American Endurance Races.
    Last edited by MisterM52; 08-17-2017 at 08:08 PM.
    "So we've come to the conclusion that BMW just has parts laying around they decide to throw on cars for no reason."

    Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??



  5. #305
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    But that is putting the m122 on a 400 hp motor versus putting it on a 180 hp motor. But at least the results are on the way and then there will be something to go by. Might need more boost to get there on the lower power motor.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterM52 View Post
    Dyno's are next on the Agenda on a NA Motor.

    For the record, The M122H has more flow than a GT35R, Its OEM proven to support 650HP on the Shelby GT500 Mustangs. Dont know that much about Turbos but in practice. If it can push a 5.8L v8 DOHC Motor thats NA 380HP to 650HP. Should have headroom for a 3L I6 BMW at 200 - 300HP.

    GT35R 800 - 900CFM ~ 475HP at 1 Bar.
    M122H 1100 - 1200 CFM 650HP 2.1 drive.
    (divide by 1.67 to get HP output)

    So it is capable, depends how much boost you run,
    And we saw 360WHP+ from an SC14. Car #3 American Endurance Races.
    #1 your forgetting the amount of power it takes to drive a m122

    #2 I don't see where your cfm to HP calculations make any sense, you can't calculate cfm to HP and not take displacement into consideration. Will a 35r make the same power on a 2.5L as a 3.2 L at 1 bar ? 14.7 psi ?

    maybe Pbonsalb can post an old 35r dyno graph to how it compares when the m122 gets dynoed.

    I would like to see the 360 whp sc14 graph tho.

    I'm interested in being wrong here, but I just don't see a m122 making any crazy power on our motors. Tanks95 had maxed out a 2.1L KB on a S50 or S52 and has come no where near the power of what a 35r has done. 100+ HP less actually. That's a little 35r as well.
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  7. #307
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    I got about 600 rwhp out of a gt35r on an S52 at about 21 psi. I had a centrifugal supercharger on an S52 before. The supercharger was a Vortech V2 T Trim. I got about 16 psi out of it but could not get more due to belt slip even with an 8 rib belt and high traction blower pulley, but could have done better with a larger crank pulley although it would have interfered with the engine fan. It did about 460 rwhp. The same 21 psi as the turbo probably would have done 550 if I could have avoided belt slip. That would be about 50 less than the gt35r, probably due to blower drive power dragging on the crank. The best I have read of in the us for a blower on a pump gas S52 is about 500 rwhp, but I am sure someone will beat that eventually.

    Cost drives decisions as well. If this positive displacement system doubles power cheaply, it will have a market. There are many who would be happy with double stock power for a few thousand dollars. About the cheapest you can do a good turbo system with used parts scrounging is $4k for everything needed. It would be $6k if all new parts. And that is the cheap end of the range.
    Last edited by pbonsalb; 08-18-2017 at 07:14 AM.

  8. #308
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    Thanks for the support everyone, now i'll see what i can do, have faith in me.
    "So we've come to the conclusion that BMW just has parts laying around they decide to throw on cars for no reason."

    Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??



  9. #309
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    Here is how I would be looking at it. Just something to consider. A standard turbo kit for say an M3 is the use of a gt3582r with a .82 AR T4 manifold. This is usually where everyone starts. They either get greedy and go bigger, or stay and be happy. Once sorted out its an extremely reliable setup.
    This setup if being done on a budget can run as follows....... Remember budget, as this is how your kits are being marketed.

    *Lower compression HG and studs = $400 (this would be needed for your M122 kits as well to make power and run above 10+ psi) so, consider this one a wash.

    *turbo manifold. Lots of options from cheap junk $100 ones to $2000 ones. But the budget choice is the spa for around $500 new.

    *turbo . a real brand new gt35r is around $1400, but what's a brand new M122 cost ? So for apples to apples we will talk used. A used gt35r runs around $550. I used this # cause I have personally sold 2 of them used for this amount.

    * intercooler. Simple, budget intercooler is $100 from eBay. 3" or 3.5" core.

    * piping/silicone. Since we are talking budget and or diy will will be saying customer can either weld, or fabricate, or can buy a $100 CX racing piping kit. If you were to diy with mild steel it would be cheaper. Those kits usually include silicone, but say another $50 for silicone and clamps. Those would be considered medium grade.

    *bov, budget eBay bov will run you $45 for knock off Tial (your kit requires one as well ?)


    *waste gate same thing, budget eBay WG about $50

    *wideband and boost gauge
    Again wash, as your kit would need one as well. So call it $200
    *clutch , wash again. If your m122 is laying down turbo power, you won't be running a OEM clutch more then a few boosted miles. Most go for a f1 racing with chromoly flywheel for $550.

    *tuning again wash, BMW forced induction turbo/twin screw tunes run about $1,000 all included. This is DME flash, injectors, MAF. You could go used for a turbo tune, but there isn't an abundance of twin screw tunes kicking around for sale. No way can you push any decent psi on a untuned DME. Injectors will be maxed and your in trouble . so, we call it $1000.

    *air filter. Wash again, both systems need one. So we say $35-50.

    * exhaust, we will need to tie in the exhaust , dp /WG pipe. So I'm going to say, a diyer can do this for $200 in piping or a exhaust shop would charge around $500 for mild steel

    So, let's add up the turbo parts price that won't be required in your m122 kit. As the wash parts we won't count. Cause the key to this exercise is "what's the better bang for the buck??"

    $500 turbo manifold
    $550 used turbo gt35r
    $150 piping /silicone/clamps
    $50 WG
    $200 exhaust if diy or $500 for mild steel from a shop.

    So if DIY then price is $1400 for turbo parts that won't been needed. Or $1700 if exhaust shop does the fab.

    This setup will net you around 550 whp at 18 psi.
    So to be on track with a gt35r kit you will want to be making 17 whp per psi on your m122 kit. This is considering a stockish m3 is making 250whp and it jumps to 550whp at 18psi. That's a 300whp gain at 18psi. This is proven and tested over and over. 18psi X 17whp = 306.

    That's the number to be at to compare to a simple standard turbo kit. 17whp per psi.

    What's the pricing for these kits ? What else is needed ?
    I hope you get what your looking for, there is a HUGE market for twin screw kits. I hope this works out to be favorable for you.
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  10. #310
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    Well Truth be told, This M122H much like the old sc14 project was something I invested R&D in for my personal needs so that I can mount an 3-4L KB Blower to a Euro M3 Motor when I move to Europe, Its only later on me and my partner decided why not release it to the public, it costs us around a grand give or take to put it together including the blower, manifold, intercooler, pipe & pretty much all the fab work done at our welders shop, there is no BOV, no BPV, no waste gates, non of that, pure simplicity, the TB is Relocated before the blower, and tuning is done by a piggy back system, the blower is refabed with warranty and everything else is pretty much brand new. taken a few hours to a whole day to bolt on really. We will be patterning the system, and pretty much its our time here and even then we will be asking maybe half that of a twin screw setup, and thats either shipped or installed. or even 1/4 of a twinscrew setup shipped everything excluding the blower, Best part is our setup can also mount a 3L - 5L Twin screw! And there is more, I also have plans in the future for a shadow project that will allow one to mount two yes two giant blowers. Thats the H.K. Project IV and will likely be on a E34 though. Now what we like about these roots blowers is its 1 bar of boost from the get go, there is no spool up its linear power, now thats with the stock 3.2" Pulley on the M122H, putting a 2.3 or 2.5" Pulley and we estimate a 20-25PSI setup.

    Now like you guys mention, we too would ideally want to put it on a Higher HP built motor, but thats budget dependent, the M50 will likely get built into a 3L down the road, maybe with a build rear Subframe and Gearbox, but for now we may not be able to put in a S52. Ideally this setup already pushes the stock engine beyond its limits, so we target those wanting to run this on a built motor with the studs and hg as you mention. 17whp per psi, I dont think will be a major limiting factor, the blowers run around 8- 10 psi on a GT500 motor and likely adds 20whp or so per psi on that motor, we just want to aim for more thats all. But hey this is a smaller motor, So wish us best.

    Definitely, thanks for the list, I am surprised there is still a market for twin screw kits, but thats great news. Thanks for the inspiration, we are working to get a dyno done and also hope this works out well so we can offer everyone more options

    Have faith, we always deliver what we can.
    "So we've come to the conclusion that BMW just has parts laying around they decide to throw on cars for no reason."

    Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??



  11. #311
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    Any dyno updates ? I'm thinking if building my wife an e36. Turbo would be the easy way to go for me. But this is interesting
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  12. #312
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    Had some MAF issues and now rescaled those (keith's using a FIC 6 on his one) and we are doing some SC14 R&D (Manifolds & Throttle Body Relocation) this week, and then plan to do a nice few videos of the M122H and a Dyno sometime next month, doing it all out of our own pockets so a bit of delay but will have dynos soon next month.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterM52 View Post
    Had some MAF issues and now rescaled those (keith's using a FIC 6 on his one) and we are doing some SC14 R&D (Manifolds & Throttle Body Relocation) this week, and then plan to do a nice few videos of the M122H and a Dyno sometime next month, doing it all out of our own pockets so a bit of delay but will have dynos soon next month.
    Maybe try to find a used TS tune. Also, check with TRM they have loads and loads of experience tuning these setups on M/S5X platforms. Tons. They can also remote tune. I don't think I would trust a piggy back if that's what your referring to. TRM would be best option.
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  14. #314
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    Yea we are using a AEM FIC6 Piggyback - http://aemelectronics.com/?q=product...ion-controller - seems to be going well for us, TRM would be nice, I will see if I can cut a deal with them later down the road for clients.

  15. #315
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    Thumbs up Dyno Results & Updates.

    Hello Everyone!

    So we have some good news & updates, we have done the dyno a week ago while still using the AEM FIC 6, set rev limiter of about 5200RPM and the blower is running on a 3.2" Pulley, with about a ~ 40%-45% underdrive from its full potential. It still puts out 13PSI of Boost with an intercooler from the moment you push the throttle.

    Engine Specs for M122H Setup



    Engine: M50TUB25
    Mileage: 250,000 Miles (410,000KM)
    Engine Condition: Totally Stock, Unopened, Un-built.
    Transmission/Diff: 5 Speed ZF / 3.15 Midcase LSD


    Stock 325i RWHP: 140-150RWHP (190BHP at Crank)
    (Estimated 20% Loss Considering Age, Wear & Drivetrain Loss)

    Engine Management/Tune: AEM FIC 6 (No Timing Adjustment)

    Injectors: #42lb

    Boost - 13PSI

    Supercharger Used
    - GT500 M122H with a regular air to air Intercooler.
    Supercharger Condition - Has some physical damage to rear of blower casing, has slight leak due to prototype discharge pan that needs to be remade to new specs.

    Dyno Results

    Engine Rev Limiter Max - 5200RPM (So Motor Doesn't Blow up)
    Rear Wheel Horsepower - 260RWHP (320HP @ Crank)
    Rear Wheel Torque - 250RWTQ



    Conclusion:

    We feel the tune was poor due to the FIC 6 not allowing enough control over many of the functions of OBD1 Cars (unlike OBD2 which it supports better). As a result we were unable to pull timing using FIC 6 and have since moved to Ostrich & Tunerpro for better management, so expect another dyno run later down the line in a few weeks.


    Verdict:

    This setup has plenty more potential if we get a better EMS, Let he Engine Rev to 7000RPM +, Have a Built Engine to handle the full M122H's Potential. We expect 500WHP from a Built S52B32 US Motor using the M122H



    SC14 Updates


    Brackets are now done directly by my Associate Mikko H in Finland.

    Me & Keith in NJ are Working with our welder on the Universal Throttle Body Relocation Kit and Pipework We are hoping to finish it this month. Have a few folks wanting them.

    Back in NZ here are some pics of an early prototype installed on a clients 328i. The latest variation has the By Pass Valve Deleted and TB Moved away to the front. Car is Owned by Bryce.









    Personal Projects & Updates:

    Broken Bumper Rebuild & Mods

    I had to Rebuild my bumper and used it as an opportunity to revisit and take pics of some of my mods, including the CAI Euro M3 Brake Duct Intake Mod. Put this inner plate as well, and will have a separate topic on this whole thing soon.









    Chip Upgrade

    Here's a chip that was done by Fekzen on my Behalf, tailored for a local racing team I sponsored earlier this year, going on an OBD1 M50B25NV, takes care of the Rev Limiter and a few other things .

    Last edited by MisterM52; 09-16-2017 at 04:37 AM.
    "So we've come to the conclusion that BMW just has parts laying around they decide to throw on cars for no reason."

    Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??



  16. #316
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    and where's the dyno document?

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by samy01 View Post
    and where's the dyno document?
    If you want to be that skeptical who cares? There are these things called computers that'll print anything.
    No warranty of any kind implied or given and no liability for any loss, damage or injury, no matter how incurred accepted.

  18. #318
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    Dyno graph would be great for the folks thinking of doing a supercharger like this. Its truly impressive the amount of power under the curve. Lits of guys don't really know the difference between a TS and centrifugal S/Cer. A dyno graph will show where the power is in the rpm range. Peak numbers don't mean everything. Area under the curve is just as important.
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  19. #319
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    Thanks everybody for your positive take, me and my partner are working on it with the Ostrich Tuning System, the RPM lock helped as we were getting over a bar of boost with no timing adjustments and all. Another issue is how much we are under driving the blower, blower is spinning around 8K RPM where Mustang GT500 guys have it running 20K Blower RPM on their cars, So plenty of room for future adjustments, and for the price, not bad.

    New dyno as well as this one will be posted on graph sometime this month if we can, then next year pushing the blower on a built motor to full potential is also on the agenda. But the power curve is very very nice being a hybrid roots blower.
    "So we've come to the conclusion that BMW just has parts laying around they decide to throw on cars for no reason."

    Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??



  20. #320
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    Agreed, showing that curve does matter. One platform I was into, folks couldn't understand how a 360whp car could outperform a 400whp car all day. That 360whp car made less peak torque, but made it from 2500rpm on, while the 400whp car didnt make equal torque until after 3500rpm and never made much more. The meat matters more than the peak.....

  21. #321
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    Please post dyno graph.

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36328Coupe View Post
    If you want to be that skeptical who cares? There are these things called computers that'll print anything.
    what the f? print what? theres no dyno document?

    do i need to understand you?

  23. #323
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    Any new pics of the updated sc14 setup?

  24. #324
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    Hey Guys, Sorry for the delay, we have been very busy, my projects partner Keith has had to relocate to another part of NJ and that meant relocation of workshops vice versa. We have only recently restarted work on our projects, many that were delayed, including the SC14 TB and Manifold Setups. But good news is its back on track and moving forward.



    Now, we have for you the M122H Dyno's that were done months ago...

    Again Note
    100% Stock M50TUB25 Motor, Unbuilt with 250,000 Miles (about 450,000KM) On it with leaking valves. Engine Rev Limited to 5000RPM, M122H Blower Rev limited to only 8000RPM (or about 40% of its true potential), It should run at 20,000RPM for desired power output but still does a good job. Tuning was also bad, some basic AFR adjustments with no timing adjusted, MAF was not properly scaled and all that. Pretty much a raw pull, and we didn;t get to finish the dyno that day either as we had boost leak which has since been solved. Currently the setup will be up for a better dyno with a better tune and a built motor.

    See for yourself.



    2017111895151825.jpg

    2017111895151913.jpg

    2017111895152004.jpg

    2017111895152039.jpg
    Last edited by MisterM52; 11-19-2017 at 01:40 AM.
    "So we've come to the conclusion that BMW just has parts laying around they decide to throw on cars for no reason."

    Interest on a Very Budget Supercharger Build??



  25. #325
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    Dat torque!

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