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Thread: Need help with very lean condition at idle.

  1. #1
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    Need help with very lean condition at idle.

    I have been fighting a OBD1 lean idle problem for some time, start car cold runs fine wideband 14,7 to 15.1 drive a little more than 2 miles in stop & go traffic CEL turns on (code 1221) now with light like flipping a switch cars becomes undriveable ,on my autometer wideband is pegged lean 17,0 car wont idle ,open throttle to make it idle and it sounds like a top fuel dragster at idle. at cruising speed still full lean runs feels like its running out of gas, car is full of gas walbro 400 pressure is get at 52psi with vacuum hose off at idle and new fuel filter. but at 1 psi boost everything is fine A/F 15.0 get richer as boost goes up like it should. i did a smoke test and found 2 fuel injector to intake o'rings leaking replaced all 6 no change also replaced o2 sensor and ICV, yesterday i was going find the problem or burn the car to the ground, i started unplugging 1 sensor at a time and drove the car with no changes or it would not run at all in tell i got to the Idle Speed Controller, with it unplugged everything changed,cars runs perfect A/F at idle is 15.0 and stays there ,driving A/F stays 14.6 to 15,0..
    How can the ICV change the AIR FUEL MIXTURE? it does not add or take away any metered air just recirculates the metered air. been driving it for 2 days maybe 60 miles no CEL runs better than every hot or cold only thing is with A/C on idle drops a little 1000 rpm to 900 but stays smooth, anyone know what i need to check next, tried a good ICV and ECM still only runs good with ICV unplugged, i don't want to just leave the ICV unplugged.. Thanks for any help..

    One more thing under boost it s a monster now spins tires in 4 gear 90+ mph @ 25 pounds of boost A/F 11.0
    2001 Z3M S52 OBX T4 Top Mount, GTX3582R T4 1.06, 66MM Compressor, 3 Inch IC Pipes,HPX, Wiseco 8-1, Ported Head, Carrillo Pro​ Rods, CES Cut Ring, 3.5 Exhaust, ARP, Big FMI, Turbonetics Gate Fender Exit, 2 Walbro Pumps, UUC 6 Puck Ceramic, Aluminum Flywheel. With working A/C.

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    Potentially a bad Icv harness? Maybe check the plug for resistance. A leak after your maf can cause lean conditions
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbo E36 View Post
    I have been fighting a OBD1 lean idle problem for some time, start car cold runs fine wideband 14,7 to 15.1 drive a little more than 2 miles in stop & go traffic CEL turns on (code 1221) now with light like flipping a switch cars becomes undriveable ,on my autometer wideband is pegged lean 17,0 car wont idle ,open throttle to make it idle and it sounds like a top fuel dragster at idle. at cruising speed still full lean runs feels like its running out of gas, car is full of gas walbro 400 pressure is get at 52psi with vacuum hose off at idle and new fuel filter. but at 1 psi boost everything is fine A/F 15.0 get richer as boost goes up like it should. i did a smoke test and found 2 fuel injector to intake o'rings leaking replaced all 6 no change also replaced o2 sensor and ICV, yesterday i was going find the problem or burn the car to the ground, i started unplugging 1 sensor at a time and drove the car with no changes or it would not run at all in tell i got to the Idle Speed Controller, with it unplugged everything changed,cars runs perfect A/F at idle is 15.0 and stays there ,driving A/F stays 14.6 to 15,0..
    How can the ICV change the AIR FUEL MIXTURE? it does not add or take away any metered air just recirculates the metered air. been driving it for 2 days maybe 60 miles no CEL runs better than every hot or cold only thing is with A/C on idle drops a little 1000 rpm to 900 but stays smooth, anyone know what i need to check next, tried a good ICV and ECM still only runs good with ICV unplugged, i don't want to just leave the ICV unplugged.. Thanks for any help..

    One more thing under boost it s a monster now spins tires in 4 gear 90+ mph @ 25 pounds of boost A/F 11.0
    No vacuum leaks?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by flyfishvt View Post
    I saw this but mine is not a intermittent problem it setts the CEL 2.2 miles from my drive way every day. But i dont have catalytic converters on my car maybe a problem? I have goggled tell my typing finger is raw

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ziptied View Post
    Potentially a bad Icv harness? Maybe check the plug for resistance. A leak after your maf can cause lean conditions
    Resistance or harness will check that today, i have smoke tested more times then i can count,no leaks i can find

    - - - Updated - - -

    one thing should it run worse when the CEL is on?
    Last edited by Turbo E36; 09-07-2015 at 06:52 PM.
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    some codes disable different things. for example a tps plausibility disables the TPS and wont let you go into WOT.let the car idle and measure the voltage from the maf. mine was around .9 to 1. plug in the ICV and check again. Is your MAF any good?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bry195 View Post
    some codes disable different things. for example a tps plausibility disables the TPS and wont let you go into WOT.let the car idle and measure the voltage from the maf. mine was around .9 to 1. plug in the ICV and check again. Is your MAF any good?
    Just got new blow thru MAF from Jordan mite have 500 miles on it. with my old HPX blow thru it does the same thing but it does run a little better when the CEL is on, if i unplug either MAF idle is ok but give it any throttle and motor dies. will check voltage and get back .
    2001 Z3M S52 OBX T4 Top Mount, GTX3582R T4 1.06, 66MM Compressor, 3 Inch IC Pipes,HPX, Wiseco 8-1, Ported Head, Carrillo Pro​ Rods, CES Cut Ring, 3.5 Exhaust, ARP, Big FMI, Turbonetics Gate Fender Exit, 2 Walbro Pumps, UUC 6 Puck Ceramic, Aluminum Flywheel. With working A/C.

  8. #8
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    You said your AFR is around 15 when you do a cold start? That's too high. Cold start should be rich until the engine gets up to about 140F. Cold start you should be around 13.

    With 1 pound of boost you should not be at 15. That's lean. Any time you're in boost you should be below 14.7.

    Don't ignore what your testing has told you. Unplugging the icv fixed it then replace the icv. Just a theory and maybe my logic is wrong but an icv that is stuck open will still allow extra air to bypass the throttle plate. In essence you're bypassing the throttle position sensor. Like I said I may be wrong on that.

    Driving that 2.2 miles may be just enough time for the engine to warm up and switch into closed loop. When that happens youre losing all the extra fuel you get in open loop so it instantly goes leaner.

    Instead of a smoke test have you considered doing a boost leak test? Smoke tests are done studying very low pressure. Boost leak test could show issues a smoke test will never expose.

  9. #9
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    Search forums for "boost leak tester". One of the guys sells them.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbo E36 View Post
    How can the ICV change the AIR FUEL MIXTURE? it does not add or take away any metered air just recirculates the metered air. .0
    When I read this, I'm confused by your wording " recirculates."
    WOT

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyfishvt View Post
    You said your AFR is around 15 when you do a cold start? That's too high. Cold start should be rich until the engine gets up to about 140F. Cold start you should be around 13.

    With 1 pound of boost you should not be at 15. That's lean. Any time you're in boost you should be below 14.7.

    Don't ignore what your testing has told you. Unplugging the icv fixed it then replace the icv. Just a theory and maybe my logic is wrong but an icv that is stuck open will still allow extra air to bypass the throttle plate. In essence you're bypassing the throttle position sensor. Like I said I may be wrong on that.

    Driving that 2.2 miles may be just enough time for the engine to warm up and switch into closed loop. When that happens youre losing all the extra fuel you get in open loop so it instantly goes leaner.

    Instead of a smoke test have you considered doing a boost leak test? Smoke tests are done studying very low pressure. Boost leak test could show issues a smoke test will never expose.
    Cold start i have never seen a 13 A/F but i live in Florida, A boost test i have not done i will try that today, I have replaced the ICV with on change ,with the key on but not running i can hear the icv spinning and with it plugged up and running bad if i turn the A/C on it dose idle up like it should..

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hsvturbo View Post
    When I read this, I'm confused by your wording " recirculates."
    I may of said it wrong the in going air is metered at the MAF the ECM adds fuel for that amount of air, whether the metered air goes thru the throttle plate or the thru the ICV it's still the same amount of air so the A/F should be the same if the ICV is working or not? i mite be wrong not sure.
    2001 Z3M S52 OBX T4 Top Mount, GTX3582R T4 1.06, 66MM Compressor, 3 Inch IC Pipes,HPX, Wiseco 8-1, Ported Head, Carrillo Pro​ Rods, CES Cut Ring, 3.5 Exhaust, ARP, Big FMI, Turbonetics Gate Fender Exit, 2 Walbro Pumps, UUC 6 Puck Ceramic, Aluminum Flywheel. With working A/C.

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    Like I said there is more to it than just the maf.

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    You very likely have a vacuum leak. And it may be in the piping from the ICV to the manifold or something in that area which is why it doesn't trigger until the car is warmed to a certain state and goes away if the ICV is unplugged.

    Until you confirm it is NOT that, I would personally say you are wasting your time looking elsewhere.
    Have you been Screwed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stimpee View Post
    You very likely have a vacuum leak. And it may be in the piping from the ICV to the manifold or something in that area which is why it doesn't trigger until the car is warmed to a certain state and goes away if the ICV is unplugged.

    Until you confirm it is NOT that, I would personally say you are wasting your time looking elsewhere.
    There are no vacuum leaks not even a little one The ICV hoses are 4 weeks old and came from a BMW dealer,intake manifold o rings and all fuel injector o rings new, throttle body o ring is new the vacuum port on the bottom of the throttle body has been taped and a plug installed with lock-tight, the vacuum port under the intake where the ICV air is returned has 2 self tapping screws thru the sides and JB welded inside and outside. FPR hose under in take is drilled tap with steel line to reg with only 1 inch hose. There are no vacuum leaks TESTS: (1) motor running with soapy water sprayed all over intake (test 2) smoke test two different days (test 3) to day i did a boost test caped of turbo inlet put 20 psi air in to intake with and with out smoke and spraying soapy water at with 5psi air. no vacuum or boost leaks, tested power brake booster no leake there. what next.
    2001 Z3M S52 OBX T4 Top Mount, GTX3582R T4 1.06, 66MM Compressor, 3 Inch IC Pipes,HPX, Wiseco 8-1, Ported Head, Carrillo Pro​ Rods, CES Cut Ring, 3.5 Exhaust, ARP, Big FMI, Turbonetics Gate Fender Exit, 2 Walbro Pumps, UUC 6 Puck Ceramic, Aluminum Flywheel. With working A/C.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbo E36 View Post
    There are no vacuum leaks not even a little one The ICV hoses are 4 weeks old and came from a BMW dealer,intake manifold o rings and all fuel injector o rings new, throttle body o ring is new the vacuum port on the bottom of the throttle body has been taped and a plug installed with lock-tight, the vacuum port under the intake where the ICV air is returned has 2 self tapping screws thru the sides and JB welded inside and outside. FPR hose under in take is drilled tap with steel line to reg with only 1 inch hose. There are no vacuum leaks TESTS: (1) motor running with soapy water sprayed all over intake (test 2) smoke test two different days (test 3) to day i did a boost test caped of turbo inlet put 20 psi air in to intake with and with out smoke and spraying soapy water at with 5psi air. no vacuum or boost leaks, tested power brake booster no leake there. what next.

    Have you attempted to spray carb cleaner near the manifold while running, particularly around the ICV once the car is warmed and running crappy?

    Were any of your tests done while it was running crappy and barely idling?
    Have you been Screwed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stimpee View Post
    Have you attempted to spray carb cleaner near the manifold while running, particularly around the ICV once the car is warmed and running crappy?

    Were any of your tests done while it was running crappy and barely idling?
    Yes i tryed spraying carb cleaner every where there could be a leak motor cold and hot, running good and bad no leaks. Can a air or coolant temp sensor be bad and not set a code in the ECM,
    bry195 you said check MAF volts at idle do you know if the voltage will be different depending on the tune? Say TRM tune to a RK tune im asking because i have both tunes they use what looks like the same HPX MAF so i tested both and idle volts are way different. Car runs bad with both but bad in different ways.
    2001 Z3M S52 OBX T4 Top Mount, GTX3582R T4 1.06, 66MM Compressor, 3 Inch IC Pipes,HPX, Wiseco 8-1, Ported Head, Carrillo Pro​ Rods, CES Cut Ring, 3.5 Exhaust, ARP, Big FMI, Turbonetics Gate Fender Exit, 2 Walbro Pumps, UUC 6 Puck Ceramic, Aluminum Flywheel. With working A/C.

  17. #17
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    I don't know what to say. Everything in your evaluation and results, particularly in your first post, to me points to vacuum leak that is isolated from the intake when the ICV is unplugged/turned off/closed.

    So, either your methods to find the vacuum leak are not working, or I am on crack.

    I am willing to accept the latter if you are convinced the former is not the case...

    Sorry I don't have any better ideas.
    Have you been Screwed?

  19. #19
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    there should not be much of a change in flow at idle between tunes. however a big difference in flow could be because they are different mafs. look for stability of the voltage in the range butters mentions. My post was aimed at making sure the maf is in a stable flow area.

    before fueling goes closed loop it runs off a map that warms the car up or gets the o2 sensor hot. 2 minutes is about right iirc. typicly the fueling map before closed loop is compensated by temperature. typically coolant temperature. however I have not played with your tunes or seen the OEM code as it relates to warmup. the miller chip doesnt specify (it plugs into dme and I have tuned this). most other engine management controls use coolant temp like I mentioned. I wouldnt put it past the Germans to use air temp though.

    Make sure you have the right temp sensors for obd1 cars. if you want to test this before buying sensors look up the temp sensors resistance at temperature value. plug a resistor in that equates to 80 degrees f. start the car. check the values of the sensors themselves.

    you shouldnt hear the icv banging or spinning. its a 3 wire right? middle pin is ground 1 and 3 are cw and ccw but both are positive (center pin might actually be hot and 2 outers ground). either way when the transistor in the dme decides it wants cw it gives it say8 volts (to make the explanation simple) and 4 volts to ccw. so that the movement is dampened and it doesnt bang and its easier to control.

    to test the icv circuit you have 2 tap all 3 wires and use 2 meters. or idle the car low and watch for voltage in 1 direction this is the ICV trying to open the valve and raise idle. then idle the car high, watch the opposing pin get a voltage to close the icv.

    it sounds like a leak and 90 percent of the time it is. testing the temp sensors is easy enough to consider it 2nd most likely. to a lesser degree it sounds like a bad icv system. if the car used to run great what did you do different? lastly an unstable maf.

    so many things can be done wrong that without details you get an answer based on statistics and experience everyone has filed away. and they are usually dead accurate even after someone is tired of doing the same tests over and over again. not that you are disorganized in your thoughts but many before you have been. keep it clear and concise.

    1-changes around the time the problem ocurred
    2-things you can do now to get a different behavior
    3-a description for the diagnostic code (guys dont look them up)
    4-what have you tried
    5-short and sweet (not like me!)most guys wont write much let alone read allot
    6-spark, air, fuel (address them all)
    7-anything else acting weird

    numbering things keeps responses organized.

  20. #20
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    dont forget the o2 sensor and pictures. did you open the throttle plate during tests?
    Last edited by bry195; 09-10-2015 at 10:42 PM.

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    [QUOTE=stimpee;28795344]I don't know what to say. Everything in your evaluation and results, particularly in your first post, to me points to vacuum leak that is isolated from the intake when the ICV is unplugged/turned off/closed.

    So, either your methods to find the vacuum leak are not working, or I am on crack.

    I am willing to accept the latter if you are convinced the former is not the case...

    Sorry I don't have any better ideas.[/QUOTE

    First thing i do want to thank everyone that's trying to help me with this problem, im sure its something simple that im over looking.
    When i said unhooked the ICV i meant the electrical plug unhooked so air still goes thru the ICV i think, A vacuum leak would still be leaking if ICV in powered up or not? im thinking engine harness problem/short or a bad sensor that is powered up by same source as the ICV

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bry195 View Post
    there should not be much of a change in flow at idle between tunes. however a big difference in flow could be because they are different mafs. look for stability of the voltage in the range butters mentions. My post was aimed at making sure the maf is in a stable flow area.

    before fueling goes closed loop it runs off a map that warms the car up or gets the o2 sensor hot. 2 minutes is about right iirc. typicly the fueling map before closed loop is compensated by temperature. typically coolant temperature. however I have not played with your tunes or seen the OEM code as it relates to warmup. the miller chip doesnt specify (it plugs into dme and I have tuned this). most other engine management controls use coolant temp like I mentioned. I wouldnt put it past the Germans to use air temp though.

    Make sure you have the right temp sensors for obd1 cars. if you want to test this before buying sensors look up the temp sensors resistance at temperature value. plug a resistor in that equates to 80 degrees f. start the car. check the values of the sensors themselves.

    you shouldnt hear the icv banging or spinning. its a 3 wire right? middle pin is ground 1 and 3 are cw and ccw but both are positive (center pin might actually be hot and 2 outers ground). either way when the transistor in the dme decides it wants cw it gives it say8 volts (to make the explanation simple) and 4 volts to ccw. so that the movement is dampened and it doesnt bang and its easier to control.

    to test the icv circuit you have 2 tap all 3 wires and use 2 meters. or idle the car low and watch for voltage in 1 direction this is the ICV trying to open the valve and raise idle. then idle the car high, watch the opposing pin get a voltage to close the icv.

    it sounds like a leak and 90 percent of the time it is. testing the temp sensors is easy enough to consider it 2nd most likely. to a lesser degree it sounds like a bad icv system. if the car used to run great what did you do different? lastly an unstable maf.

    so many things can be done wrong that without details you get an answer based on statistics and experience everyone has filed away. and they are usually dead accurate even after someone is tired of doing the same tests over and over again. not that you are disorganized in your thoughts but many before you have been. keep it clear and concise.

    1-changes around the time the problem ocurred
    2-things you can do now to get a different behavior
    3-a description for the diagnostic code (guys dont look them up)
    4-what have you tried
    5-short and sweet (not like me!)most guys wont write much let alone read allot
    6-spark, air, fuel (address them all)
    7-anything else acting weird

    numbering things keeps responses organized.
    1-changes around the time the problem occurred: seems like it all started after installing new spark plugs (NGK 4554 gaped at .22) on test drive i had a big over boost pegged gauge 40 psi(boost controller hoses was not hooked up after installing plugs) and the hose coming out of turbo busted car sat for a week or so waiting on new hose seems like thats when problems started getting worse, but car has never idle like it should
    Last edited by Turbo E36; 09-11-2015 at 01:11 PM.
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  22. #22
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    Just checked MAF volts hot idle .64 with or with out the ICV plugged only differences is with it plugged in i get a bouncing idle volts go up and down and say around .59 low .74 high volts mostly .64

    - - - Updated - - -

    OK i just plugged the ICV back in and when for a drive and there is one think i left out of the first post as i get close to the 2.2 mile mark where the CEL comes on if im sitting at a red light idling just before the light comes on car starts running smoother and idling up and up just as it get where its perfect with A/F at 14.8 CEL comes on car starts run like crap A/F 17 which is max on my autometer so im thinking its going in to closed loop when CEL comes on with code 1221, one more thing my purge canister solenoid when bad a few months ago and i replaced it with a resistor that was the same resistances solenoid maybe thats part of the problem?
    Last edited by Turbo E36; 09-11-2015 at 08:37 PM.
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  23. #23
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    nothing stands out for lean. maybe fix the problems identified.

    1-your car doesnt think its idling properly thus the bouncy icv screwing with flow. what is the voltage at the TPS?

    2-unplug the o2. it will disable closed loop.

    3-do you see a fuel pressure difference when idling and you pull the hose of the FPR?

    4-how does it idle with the maf unplugged?

    5-why did you overboost? or what was the cause?

  24. #24
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    Z3 Turbo Ferrari 328gts
    Found the problem!! It ended up being a wiring problem the number 1 coil had the ground wire melted to the signal wire from being to close to the exhaust my fault of coarse. why that caused it to run lean idling and at steady driving speed im not sure, there was never a miss fire problem ever, not one CEL for cylinder #1 missing. i was running new grounds to everything in the engine harness and when i touched the coil ground wire with a grounded jumper wire it sparked so simple and took 2 months to find and two minutes to fix it, I should have ask for help long ago, i fixed the wires plugged everything up like it should be now at idle cold A/R is 15.8, hot idle 14.7 idle is smooth at 900 rpms. at cruising speed A/R is 14.7 to 15,2 and no CEL after 60 miles of driving. i have no idea why unplugging the ICV made things better . I would like to thank everyone that help car runs better that it ever has, now i have a traction problem spinning tire in 4 gear at over 100 mph but this is a good problem....David.
    2001 Z3M S52 OBX T4 Top Mount, GTX3582R T4 1.06, 66MM Compressor, 3 Inch IC Pipes,HPX, Wiseco 8-1, Ported Head, Carrillo Pro​ Rods, CES Cut Ring, 3.5 Exhaust, ARP, Big FMI, Turbonetics Gate Fender Exit, 2 Walbro Pumps, UUC 6 Puck Ceramic, Aluminum Flywheel. With working A/C.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    4,403
    My Cars
    E36,E38, and E46
    great news! now stop restoring vettes and figure out a way to stuff one of the new Borg Warner turbos into that thing and show us how to do it! If you make it down to Tampa with the car let me know. I dont see allot of boosted bimmers.

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