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Thread: E32 1992 750il cluster lights stay on (traction, ABS, battery, etc)

  1. #1
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    E32 1992 750il cluster lights stay on (traction, ABS, battery, etc)

    I was driving my car without issue. It sat for 15 minutes. Went out to start it up and noticed most of the dash lights stayed on this time. EML is not one, but things like traction, battery charge, ABS and a few others are on. Even the service indicator stays lit for a longer time than normal, but does go out. No check control messages as I fixed any of those issues.

    Car operates fine, all gauges work as they should. All interior accessories work.

    Thoughts are a charging issue. Car does have new positive and ground leads. Belt is fine. So maybe voltage regulator? But before I rip things apart I am wondering if there is some known issue that can cause this. Otherwise when I have time I will start pulling the mains and checking outputs. Normally I would before even posting, but i have a hell of a weekend already so any preemptive help is appreciated!
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  2. #2
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    Quick check is the OBC test # 9 for Voltage at terminal 15. Unlock the OBC and set to #9 test in V....UB http://bmwe32.masscom.net/johan/obc_...c_secrets.html
    NOT test # 8, that shows also something with V, but that is Current speed
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  3. #3
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    Thanks, forgot about that. With the car off I get 11.61. When running that fluctuates between 11.4 and 11.6.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I turned on a bunch of accessories and got 11.3 to 11.45 off, pretty much the same when running. Makes me think alt output is low, but functional. I would think there would be a greater drop in the voltage reading with rear defrost, heated seats and blower fan on max.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anyone know much of voltage regulators? I have a barely used one from a Benz. BOSCH (made in Spain) 1197311022 is on the part. 14v 4C

    Based on this page, it physically looks the same too:
    http://bmwe32.masscom.net/sean750/Vo...eRegulator.htm

    Seems to come up as a Benz regulator, but like I said it looks identical. So I think they may just re-stamp the part for varying makes like the alternators. The only difference is the last two digits.

    So my thinking is I already have one on hand. Which means I can dive into this project now before possibly doing any harm to the battery, etc.
    Last edited by unity; 09-05-2015 at 08:06 PM.
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  4. #4
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    Yes, that should probably fit to the Bosch alternator. Bosch: 1197311026, 1197311027, 1197311028, 1197311035, 1197311038, 1197311040, 1197311041,
    Alfa Romeo: 11610050600811
    Audi/VW: 034903803
    BMW: 12311726022, 1726022 http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...022&series=E32
    Opel: 1204256, 1204259
    Mercedes-Benz: 0021547902, 0021547906
    Porsche: 92860314200, 96460314100

    Fits on Bosch alternator # 0120489421 0120489423 120489434 0120489448 0120489455 0120489480 0120489483 0120489484 0120489549 0120489888 0120489889 0120489903 0120489904 0120489905 0120489906 0120489961 0120489966 0120489967 0120489968 0120489976 0120489980 0120489981 0120489982 0120489983 0120489986 0120489987 0120489992 0120489993 0120489090 0120489091 0120489094 0120489104 0120489105 0120489115 0120489128 0120489129 0120489130 0120489131 0120489133 0120489134 0120489152 0120489153 0120489167 0120489170 0120489171 0120489195 0120489196 0120489197 0120489208 0120489209 0120489210 0120489211 0120489228 0120489229
    0120489237 0120489244 0120489248 0120489249 0120489282 0120489283 0120468001 0120468002 0120468003 0120468004 0120468005 0120468007 120468008 0120468013 0120468014 0120468017 0120468018 0120468019
    0120468020 0120468022 0120468023 0120468025 0120468026 0120468027 0120468029 0120468030 0120468031 0120468032 0120468033 0120468042 0120468043 0120468050 0120468051 0120468052 0120468056 0120468062

    Anyway, that is by far too low, either the voltage regulator, or the wire between alternator and B+ is bust, see my website how I made a new alternator cable and my voltage went up from 11 something volt to 13V+ (depending on battery condition and requirement, as it regulates).
    Just in case you need a new voltage regulator, I still have new Hella voltage regulators on stock for Bosch alternator M70 and M30 engine, and another type for the M60 engine, also made by Hella, see here, there are also pics how they look and you can compare your MB voltage regulator.
    http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showt...lternators-new

    I assume the battery light is not dimming when engine is running? Because that could mean a diode is defective .

    Understanding Alternators.What is an Alternator Generator and How Does It Work? By http://alternatorparts.com/understan...ternators.html
    Last edited by shogun; 09-05-2015 at 10:00 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Thanks again Shogun, that is what I was looking for but I could not find a proper cross-reference. Much appreciated and hope it will help others. I feel better about using the part then. It also means I have a second spare too!

    The battery light stays on. The only others that go out are SRS and a couple others. The rest, including battery, stay on. I will see if it dims at all or not. My fear is a diode too because this happened out of the blue. Normally when a regulator goes I have more signs. Like it will all be fine, then low voltage, then back to normal. This went from being okay to not quickly.

    I guess my plans for tomorrow are cancelled as I replace the regulator and see what happens.
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  6. #6
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    I had that on my E36 M3 Bosch compact alternator. It came suddenly without any prior warning and the car had only 30kmiles then. All worked fine, drove to our wrenching place and suddenly the battery light started dimming and dimmed the whole way to there. Battery we tested then when we arrive and found out that the relatively new battery was already down in V. Replaced the voltage regulator on the spot (easy on the M3, done in 30 minutes), started the engine and same problem continued, battery light dimming with engine running. Then we drove to a nearby scrapyard and took that alternator from another E36 and installed it with my new voltage regulator, all fine.
    Then one of my wrenching buddies who is electronic engineer disassembled the alternator and tested the rectifier, one or more (I forgot) of the diodes were bad. I ordered the diodes from a German supplier who has all single parts for alternators and also rectifiers complete, but he was not able to solder in the new diode without breaking the rectifier plastic housing. So next step was to order a cpl. new rectifier.
    Of course a cpl. rectifier costs much more than a simple diode. On this occasion we also installed/soldered in a new slipring for the voltage regulator, as the old one was having a lot of wear grooves.
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  7. #7
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    I have not had time to work on it with all these storms we are having. But u did take a closer look at battery light and it does not dim. With car off or on, it's the same brightness. If I have time I am going to replace the regulator tomorrow and see what happens.
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  8. #8
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    Don't forget to test/check the battery before purchasing other new parts. It is easy to destroy a new battery by just letting it discharge too low (below 11.7V) and then have a freeze or two. The battery can more or less internally short itself causing the voltage drop when measuring at terminal B while the car is running. Use a different battery befor buying parts.
    Current cars:
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    Former cars:
    E34 520i 1992, E34 520i 1993, E34 520i 1994,
    E32 750i 1992/10 Laser Blue metallic DC09436, Softclose, Xenon etc.
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  9. #9
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    Its a brand new battery. Has never been discharged too low or gone through a winter yet. Also last night I tried something. I started the car and turned on accessories and such. Then I would reve the engine a bit. Not only would voltage not go up, the interior light would not brighten. Tells me the alternator is not working at all. Pretty sure its running only on battery.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Are there any fusible links from the B+ post and battery?
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  10. #10
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    Pics of the 2 fusible links, the one shown is usually in shrink plastic and you can only feel it that the "cable'' seems to be thicker. Just follow the cable into direction to right rear door where it goes into the cable channel under the doors towards front
    http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/377728/
    As far as I remember the red 10 qmm cable with the fusible link in shrink plastic which goes from the battery towards the under door cable channel goes to the B+ post. Double check in ETM.
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  11. #11
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    Okay. I did everything short of removing the alt. If its not one thing, its another. I am sick with something respiratory. Anyway I installed a new ground wire. The lead to the B+ was already new. I checked disconnected the alt and fired up the engine. I got 0.9v at idle and about 3v at higher (3k) rpm. So it has output, just very, very low. Tomorrow I will do a diode check with my meter. Forgot to today.

    Also I have a charger on the battery at the B+ and ground post, its charging fine so the cables that way I am pretty sure are good.

    So if the diode check is bad, I will source a replacement alt without removal. That way in a pinch I still have car to drive. If the diode test is good, I will put and swap in my spare regulator.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Update: I did the diode test and it came back good. Meter set to ohms, positive to disconnected positive alt output then negative to alt body. Should be as if its not connected to anything. Reverse connections and you should get some reading.

    So there is a good chance the diodes are good. If they fail, a reading is found both ways. This is pretty easy to test, you can technically use the ground and B+ alt lead for easy access. But some meters are too weak to get an reading through the body into the alt.

    Anyway, next step is to remove the alt and try a new regulator. Fingers crossed!
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  12. #12
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    To remove the alternator, there is a way to wiggle it thru that you do not have to remove so many parts. Just yesterday someone on the German forum posted some new pics how to get it in an out, I started that thread in 2006
    http://www.7-forum.com/forum/24/lich...eln-57824.html
    you might need to register there to enlarge the pics. Or click here, there is on post 6 a large pic where you see what has to come out and what not to get the alt in/out http://www.7-forum.com/forum/5/licht...ekt-46622.html
    Protect the radiator from damages when you do that.
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  13. #13
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    Sweet! Thanks Shogun. I have been reading on ways and frankly the difficulty is why I simply have not removed it yet to check out. Wanting to rule out other issues first so I dont have to pull it multiple times! Just wish taking four years of German and two years of Japanese would have stuck in my head better...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Looks like I need to wait. Account is activated, but I can not view attachments yet.
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  14. #14
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    altin1.jpg
    altin2.jpg
    altin3.jpg
    o.k., here is one pic large http://www.7-forum.com/forum/5/licht...ekt-46622.html
    he mentions: to remove the alternator it is sufficient to remove the air intake on that side with the air intake box, disctributor cap left side and losen the ipper coolant hoses on that side. It is NOT necessary to remove the radiator or the oil filter and oil filter hoses. When I did that many years ago I removed the oil filter and oil filter hoses, terrible mess, leave that inside.
    The other 3 pics I just downloaded and post them here above.
    Also see here the last pic from Espen ONLY the last!, that is from the same person which did that in 2005 http://bmwe32.masscom.net/sean750/al...eplacement.htm
    Sean back in 2006 removed by far too much, now we know better.
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  15. #15
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    Thanks again Shogun, much appreciated. Not sure why I can not view pics yet on that German site. If the weather cooperates tomorrow I will give it a go. I would do it in the garage but I have the front clip from a 7 in there taking up room.
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  16. #16
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    Pulled the alt out today. Was not too hard really, just really tight. I cleaned the contacts on the alt and regulator before installing. Think I mentioned I put a new ground lead on (engine to frame). My alt to B+ cable is new. So basically all the connections are as good as they can get. Huge improvement, but not as much as expected. My average voltage is 13.2. It fluctuates up and down to a high of 13.8 and a low of about 12.8. RPM does not seem to dictate the high/low state. At the terminals with a meter, it was a more steady 13.2v.

    So I certainly feel much more comfortable driving it now without fear of being stranded. The old regulator was indeed bad, it was very worn. As I mentioned, I cleaned the contacts inside for the regulator. The mount screws too for the it to make sure there was a good solid connection. A note on the regulator, one site mentions a nob to clip off. While my new one did not have one, my old one did. In the case of the write-up, it was the reverse and it was felt the nob caused an install issue. I also sprayed some electric parts clear inside to make sure regulator dust was not building up, etc.

    I will continue to watch voltages. At least I know I have enough to charge the battery and then some.

    note: could my current low voltages be due to a low voltage battery in a state of charging?


    IMG_0486.jpg
    IMG_0487.jpg
    IMG_0489.jpg
    Last edited by unity; 09-10-2015 at 10:53 PM.
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  17. #17
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    And just like that, down to 11.2 volts with cluster indicators on... Wonderful.

    The only thing I did today was fire up the car to reposition it. Did not notice an issue, in fact it hit over 14v a couple times and hovered at 13.8v for the short maneuver. Then I hooked up the oil level sensor and ground. When I started it again, had the issue. Battery charging now on external, I have to assume now the alt is bad in some way beyond the regulator. Handing it must have helped in some manner. Drove it several miles last night as all was fine - had the OBC showing voltage the whole time.

    Vehicle has 170,000 miles and the alt appears original.

    I disconnected the sensor and ground, no change. Thinking they may have shorted some place.

    Next step, installing a reman alt and see what happens.
    Last edited by unity; 09-11-2015 at 09:09 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Replaces the alt. Of course it had to be the wrong one. Its a Bosch rebuild for 140amp, but the air cooling duct is much longer and at a different angle, so I can not attach it to the rubber boot. I think I will order another from a different source later.

    It seems to be working. But so did the last one after swapping the regulator. Its putting out 13.4 to 13.8 volts. I have yet to see it pass 14 volts. I will keep an eye on voltages and see how it holds up. I expect it to work just fine though.
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  19. #19
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    Once again, another day fine then dead. No dash lights but maybe because it died mid-drive. Oddly no charge light at the least. The alt has a resistor from the D post to ground, left it on when installed.

    But 11.2 volts give or take. Aborted trip and headed home. Verified with meter. Shut off car and cut positive wire in metal tube to pull it out. Wire was fine (I installed a new one) but wanted to make sure it did not break open and ground out. Looks new.

    So no clue, all I can think is that is must be a defect in the positive lead to battery.

    Does anyone know the exact path it take to battery?

    Battery is only months old. Duracell wet type. But maybe its defective?

    - - - Updated - - -

    With turn of key, no battery light. Swapped lamp, same issue. Wires to alt look fine and double checked.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Another update:

    So assuming the lamp is good I checked closer on the alternator connections. They all look good. I pulled the small blue wire off and disconnected the resistor that was installed on the rebuild. When I hooked the blue wire back up (it was still connected near B+ post) I had some sparks! Oops! So I disconnected the connector and continued to tighten. Hooked connector back up and still no charge light. So I again pulled the blue wire and ran my meter on it. I assumed it would be a positive lead, but when I run a voltage check I get battery voltage between it and the B+ post. Between it and the ground post, nothing.

    That seems odd to me. Should the blue wire be battery 12v+? To add more confusion, when I turn the key the voltage drops well below 1 volt. 0.3 or about.

    At this point I am tempted to run a 12V+ wires from the battery straight to the back of the alternator.
    Last edited by unity; 09-17-2015 at 07:12 PM.
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  20. #20
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    I hope a electronic expert like E32Fan can chime in here. Wiring diagrams are here, but this is not my special field of knowledge http://shark.armchair.mb.ca/~dave/BMW/e32/
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  21. #21
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    I did look over diagrams, nothing stands out. Even with dash light out, with key on I get 12v positive ad D terminal like I should. That may indicate this dash has a resistor in play for charge lamp failure.

    im working on it now though, it just does not make sense at all. If I had a charge idicator lamp, I would suspect bad alt or bat.

    - - - Updated - - -

    After more reading, I found one can ground the wire going TO the alt, the D+. Aka, battery light. I did and light comes on. So this tells me that something is not grounding right on the alt or the D+ post is defective, damaged, etc. so as it stands now, this rebuilt alt is bad.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And befor someone suggests a bad engine ground. I did use a meter to double check. Not to mention I think it would not even run right with a missing one while only on battery.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Last update and for reference to those who may ever some across issues like this. Sorry for all the updates, but I come across far too many thread that never have a conclusion or much detail. Some of my post may be repetitive.

    The way the D+ (battery/charge indicator) works is with the car off its just a ground out. Which is fine. When ignition is turned on (car not started), that "reverses" and the lead (blue wire) becomes positive. Under proper condition, this lead is grounded out thus closing the circuit and turning on the battery/charge idiot light. This also provides the excite voltage needed to get the alternator working. When the engine fires up, the voltage from this lead excites the alternator and it starts to produce power. The alternator then outputs 12 volts at B+ (main terminal) AND at D+ (idiot light). Basically the blue wire turns from a ground out for the light at the alternator and into a positive output from the alternator going to the light. When this happens, the light goes out because now the light has positive voltage going to it from each side.

    Does that make sense? I hope so, it does in my head.

    In my case, something inside the alt broke resulting in no ground out situation, thus the light never turned on. It also means none of the excite voltage was present to get the alternator working. This is probably the worst case scenario for failure! If I was not being paranoid and using the OBC to monitor voltages (thanks Shogun!!) then I would have never know the alternator had failed!!! The car would have ran on battery until it died.

    In short, the idiot light is an idiot.

    I have my battery back from testing, it passed all tests fine. When I locate anther alternator, I will update post-install. AGAIN!
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by unity View Post
    Does that make sense? I hope so, it does in my head.

    In my case, something inside the alt broke resulting in no ground out situation, thus the light never turned on. It also means none of the excite voltage was present to get the alternator working. This is probably the worst case scenario for failure! If I was not being paranoid and using the OBC to monitor voltages (thanks Shogun!!) then I would have never know the alternator had failed!!! The car would have ran on battery until it died.

    In short, the idiot light is an idiot.
    You are correct!

    Have a look at these 3 pages: 1230-02 to 04.

    The Alternator requires some Current flowing in its Field winding before it can generate any power (even with the engine running). The source of this current is through the charge indicator light, into the BLU wire feeding D+. (BTW - The resistor shown in parallel with the lamp will provide some Field current even if the lamp burns out.) When the alternator starts generating its own voltage, then the 3 diodes feeding D+ will raise the D+ pin to 12V, so the charge light goes out.

    I think you are right to suspect the alternator. You are measuring 12V at the BLU wire because the D+ terminal is open inside the alternator, so no Field current is flowing there. The only current flowing through the charge light is your meter current. So the charge light is probably fine. The trouble is in the control circuitry inside the alternator.

    Notice the UNLOADER RELAY K61. It is energized during the time before the alternator raises D+ to 12V. This turns off the Rear Defogger relay K13, which saves battery power for the starter motor. So the rear defroster is "Unloaded" until the alternator comes to life.

    Also, notice the two "NOT USED" wires at X512 pin 7 and X36 pin 21. These are signs of additional loads that were once candidates for "Unloading". (Maybe Marketing vetoed this plan.)
    Last edited by E32FAN; 09-20-2015 at 11:55 AM.

  23. #23
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    Im starting to get REALLY good at installing alternators on the M70. That is not a good thing.... Anyway the first rebuilt was presumed dead. The auto place did not even test it. My replacement came in and we swapped it out. I installed it tonight and so far voltage is around 13.4 to 13.8v. Which is apparently good.

    Side note, the last one came with some poor looking voltage regular. This rebuild came with a rebuilt BOSCH regulator. That makes me feel better.

    Another side note. Some not that voltage fluctuates with certain alternators. Or at least it was blamed on such. During all the times I drove just on battery, voltage fluctuated.

    Well I will keep an eye on this one and see what happens....
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  24. #24
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    Now that looks normal with 13.4 - 13.8v, same like my 750. The large M70 alternator is layed out for lower volts than the compact version of M60. My Hella regulator states 14.1v, while I have seen voltage regulators for other engine alternators like M60, they state 14.5v. Voltage fluctuation is normal, as it regulates based on the needs of the components and also the battery.
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  25. #25
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    Good to hear. I just hope it holds up this time. And since I changes nothing else, clearly the first rebuild became defective in quick order. I shall watch this one like a hawk! Now off to change the rear brake pads and O2 sensors.
    Last edited by unity; 09-22-2015 at 12:52 PM.
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