has anyone rune the s52 through pipemax?

[cpalella]

I don't have the software, and thought I would ask if anyone has done this before I look into buying it. I am getting a little more serious about building a "tuned" exhaust and I am trying to put together a parts list but first I need to know some critical dimensions which I think pipemax is able to compute. Such as, secondary tube length and diameter, secondary collector length and diameter - assuming single pipe midsection and exhaust (should it have a reverse taper? what should it collect to - diameter wise, and if it should have a taper, how long?), primary tube diameter, how far from the exhaust port should the y pipe be placed (I think you aim for certain harmonic lengths to take maximum advantage of exhaust port scavenging)

I will be using euro m3 3.2 headers (I'd rather use kromer kraft or some other, but they are too expensive) and I plan to lengthen the secondary tubes as needed which will collect to a y pipe (probably using a burns custom piece, or make my own to save $$), and I will be doing all fab/welding, the rest of the exhaust components I will decide on after I sort the header, y pipe situation

If there's a better place to post this kind of question please let me know. There isn't any exhaust subforum

[FastFabM3]

I've been meaning to do this for awhile, because I believe there is a lot of exhaust system potential, but since I haven't been able to commit the time to fab the thing, I haven't made it a big priority yet.

I've got all the stock engine info other than cam timing at .050" and a reliable lift spec and the timing differences that the VANOS does.

I'd be more than happy to post the info here if we can nail down the details.

[GGray]

Highly unlikely you will see huge gains these cars have been around a LONG TIME and the exhaust has been pretty much figured out at this point. Kromer craft is no longer in business. And he used oval piping for ground clearance and his stuff literally varied car to car on power it was not a production piece you could get X power from. The Euro header is the one that makes almost the most power. The Euro SuperSprint Race header makes he most power but for the money its not worth the 2-3hp more. They make the most power with a 3 inch exhaust. The custom Kromer Craft was roughly 3 inch but ovalized under the car. I have a few friends who still have it on their race cars...

The issue with running a race exhaust for most is the level of sound...

[cpalella]

I've been meaning to do this for awhile, because I believe there is a lot of exhaust system potential, but since I haven't been able to commit the time to fab the thing, I haven't made it a big priority yet.
I've got all the stock engine info other than cam timing at .050" and a reliable lift spec and the timing differences that the VANOS does.
I'd be more than happy to post the info here if we can nail down the details.

Great! I'll do some digging when time permits. I'm sure some people in the FI section could help with that info. I feel like I've even seen some of that posted there. I am also a long way off from actual fabrication and I've got a few other projects also in the R&D stage. I just try to push them all along as fast as I can and whichever matures fastest will get some funding and wrench time. But this one is definitely on the list. It will actually serve a dual purpose: first on my NA s52e30 and then on my SCed e36.

Highly unlikely you will see huge gains these cars have been around a LONG TIME and the exhaust has been pretty much figured out at this point. Kromer craft is no longer in business. And he used oval piping for ground clearance and his stuff literally varied car to car on power it was not a production piece you could get X power from. The Euro header is the one that makes almost the most power. The Euro SuperSprint Race header makes he most power but for the money its not worth the 2-3hp more. They make the most power with a 3 inch exhaust. The custom Kromer Craft was roughly 3 inch but ovalized under the car. I have a few friends who still have it on their race cars...

The issue with running a race exhaust for most is the level of sound...

I am quite familiar with most if not all of the headers/exhaust available and understand each system's positives and negatives. I also don't have any illusions towards "huge" gains. However, there is plenty to be had over the OBD2 tubular headers and I feel that most exhaust builds breeze over the most important part which is the secondary tube size/length and the y pipe/x pipe placement, configuration, and style/construction. There are very few exhaust builds that I have seen which place true science into the decision of the layout of those components. On r3v (I think it was r3v, might not have been) there is a member "digger" who did a lot of exhaust research and tried a whole host of configurations on his stroked m20 and saw sizeable gains after putting careful planning into x/y pipe placement. He posted a dyno with a handful of HP gained just from changing the x/y pipe from the 4th harmonic length to the 3rd.


That said, as long as I don't lose HP over what I currently have, I will consider that a success. For me, the projects don't always have a rationally proportionate ratio input:gain. The car is just as much about the projects, builds, research, learning, engineering, etc as it is about how much hp the motor makes and actually driving it

regarding sound: it can be tamed if needed I plan a removable/swapable center muffler/resonator/cat section for both cars

[fastback69]

I ran some numbers just goofing off. Some of my inputs may not be exact, I just used numbers I found doing various searches. I'm not sure about the cam specs. I don't know if the duration is correct for @ .050" lift. Here are the inputs I used and if someone will send me corrections, I'll re run the simulations.

Engine Data Intake Data Exhaust data
VE%: 98 # of valves: 2 #of valves: 2
Bore: 3.4" Valve head dia: 1.299" Valve head dia: 1.2"
Stroke: 3.527" Valve stem dia: .235" Valve stem dia: .234"
Rod C-C L: 5.315" Valve lift: .413" Valve lift: .374
Cyl: 6 Duration @.050: 252 Duration @.050: 244
Peak RPM: 6000 C.L: 116 Port CL length: 3.2"
CR: 10.5 LCA: 111

Simulation output

--- Single Primary Pipe Specs --- for 192.135 CID from 4000 to 6500 RPM
Diameter= 1.354 Length= 33.1 to 35.5 also 23.2 to 25.5 inches long
Note> Maximum Primary's Tuned Length= 55.2 to 57.5 inches long

--- Header Collector Specs (Conventional Straight Tube) ---
Diameter= 2.500 Tuned Lengths= 18.8 best and 9.4 or 37.6

H-Pipe= 18.8 X-Pipe= 75.2 distance behind end of Primary Tube ends

-- Total Exhaust System Tuned Lengths (Primary ends to TailPipe end) --
Best HP/TQ Tuned Collector Lengths= 18.8 , 37.6 , 75.2 , 150.4 inches long

Worst HP/TQ Loss Collector Lengths= 28.2 , 56.4 , 112.8 , 225.6 inches long

Note=> measured from where the Primary Pipes end inside the Collector to
the point the tailpipe exits into the atmosphere.
H-Pipe is located at end of Collector, and X-Pipe is located
usually half-way between end of Primary Pipes -to- tailpipe end

Note-> all Pipe Diameters are OD and based-off .0625 inch Pipe thickness

---- Primary Pipe's Harmonics ----
1st Harmonic = 145.0 inches long ... typically never used
2nd Harmonic = 55.2 inches long ... longest recommended
3rd Harmonic = 33.1 inches long ... highly recommended , best Torque Curve
4th Harmonic = 23.2 inches long ... shortest recommended
5th Harmonic = 17.5 inches long ... typically never used
6th Harmonic = 13.8 inches long ... typically never used
7th Harmonic = 11.3 inches long ... typically never used
8th Harmonic = 9.4 inches long ... typically never used

---- Collector's Harmonics (includes Intermediate, Muffler , TailPipe) ----
1st Harmonic = 150.4 inches long ... longest with Mufflers and TailPipes
2nd Harmonic = 75.2 inches long ... longest recommended with Mufflers
3rd Harmonic = 37.6 inches long ... more bottom-end Torque
4th Harmonic = 18.8 inches long ... highly recommended , best Torque Curve
5th Harmonic = 9.4 inches long ... reduced Torque , more top-end HP sometimes
6th Harmonic = 4.7 inches long ... reduced Torque , not recommended


************** Metric Units ******************


--- Single Primary Pipe Specs --- for 3.149 Liters from 4000 to 6500 RPM
Diameter MM= 34.395 Length= 841.8 to 900.6 also 588.9 to 647.7 MM long
Note> Maximum Primary's Tuned Length= 1401.3 to 1460.1 MM long

--- Header Collector Specs (Conventional Straight Tube) ---
Diameter MM= 63.500 Tuned Lengths= 477.5 best and 238.7 or 955.0

H-Pipe= 477.5 X-Pipe= 1910.0 distance behind end of Primary Tube ends

-- Total Exhaust System Tuned Lengths (Primary ends to TailPipe end) --
Best HP/TQ Tuned Collector Lengths= 477.5 , 955.0 , 1910.0 , 3819.9 MM long

Worst HP/TQ Loss Collector Lengths= 716.2 , 1432.5 , 2864.9 , 5729.9 MM long

Note=> measured from where the Primary Pipes end inside the Collector to
the point the tailpipe exits into the atmosphere.
H-Pipe is located at end of Collector, and X-Pipe is located
usually half-way between end of Primary Pipes -to- tailpipe end

Note-> all Pipe Diameters are OD and based-off 1.588 MM Pipe thickness


---- Primary Pipe's Harmonics ----
1st Harmonic = 3683.0 MM long ... typically never used
2nd Harmonic = 1401.3 MM long ... longest recommended
3rd Harmonic = 841.8 MM long ... highly recommended , best Torque Curve
4th Harmonic = 588.9 MM long ... shortest recommended
5th Harmonic = 444.7 MM long ... typically never used
6th Harmonic = 351.6 MM long ... typically never used
7th Harmonic = 286.5 MM long ... typically never used
8th Harmonic = 238.4 MM long ... typically never used

---- Collector's Harmonics (includes Intermediate, Muffler , TailPipe) ----
1st Harmonic = 3819.9 MM long ... longest with Mufflers and TailPipes
2nd Harmonic = 1910.0 MM long ... longest recommended with Mufflers
3rd Harmonic = 955.0 MM long ... more bottom-end Torque
4th Harmonic = 477.5 MM long ... highly recommended , best Torque Curve
5th Harmonic = 238.7 MM long ... reduced Torque , more top-end HP sometimes
6th Harmonic = 119.4 MM long ... reduced Torque , not recommended

[cpalella]

I ran some numbers just goofing off. Some of my inputs may not be exact, I just used numbers I found doing various searches. I'm not sure about the cam specs. I don't know if the duration is correct for @ .050" lift. Here are the inputs I used and if someone will send me corrections, I'll re run the simulations.

I'll see what I can dig up. But, awesome!! Thank you. I'm also wondering how much those numbers would change with some cams like a sunbelt stage 2 or something since that's what I will likely end up with. I'll do some more research and get back. Going on vacation for a week this friday so there'll probably be a bit of a hiatus from me.

[fastback69]

I also didn't account for the vanos action. I'm new to BMW and the S52 engine so I haven't quite figured everything out yet. I'm more familiar with small block and modular Fords. There's a lot of exhaust system tech on www.speedtalk.com.

[RRSperry]

I can guarantee that BMW, and then SuperSprint, and probably a few others went through the science when they build exhausts...


I'll bet you $50 that what you are doing will be fun, but end up being just another form of mental masturbation. You're going to end up with an exhaust that makes within 5 Hp of everyone else...

(not hating, or saying don't do it... But the wheel has already been invented...)

[cpalella]

I also didn't account for the vanos action. I'm new to BMW and the S52 engine so I haven't quite figured everything out yet. I'm more familiar with small block and modular Fords. There's a lot of exhaust system tech on www.speedtalk.com.

We'll figure it out

I can guarantee that BMW, and then SuperSprint, and probably a few others went through the science when they build exhausts...
I'll bet you $50 that what you are doing will be fun, but end up being just another form of mental masturbation. You're going to end up with an exhaust that makes within 5 Hp of everyone else...
(not hating, or saying don't do it... But the wheel has already been invented...)

Well, BMW might know how to extract every exhaust hp possible, but what made it to the cars was obviously oriented towards a very different set of parameters...

In terms of supersprint et al. I am certain they do/did the science! But I can't afford it Also, this project is primarily focused on a system for my e30s52 for which there aren't any "bolt on" performance systems (there is one actually, arc asylum makes a truly beautiful header back exhaust for the swap, but again, can't afford it) So I will decline your bet, because that's exactly my goal: to make the same gains/power that any other performance system makes, albeit via DIY rather than spending $$$.

When I said before "most exhaust builds breeze over the most important part" and "There are very few exhaust builds that I have seen which place true science into the decision of the layout of those components" I was referring to the DIY builds rather than the systems already offered from some of the big performance companies for big $$$.

[FastFabM3]

I've used Pipemax a lot in the past and you need to get the right specs and use it as a tool to find the best system. If you just hack at it, you'll get hack results --> GIGO. Those cam specs can't be at .050" or you'd be looking at an upper RPM race cam with something like 290 inlet seat duration and 280 seat duration exhaust.

Also, exhaust companies have to make a profit (as does BMW), and assuming they maxed out the performance potential of anything is (IMO) a poor assumption. Production headers almost always have too large a primary tube diameter, usually unequal lengths, poor (high loss) collector designs and often too large a secondary diameter too. When computer mandrel bending the tube lengths, they can't place bends too close to each other or the tube can't be made, so that is also a compromise point that often leads to a less than optimum header design (tubes wrong length). I also don't think it's fair to say that there isn't a lot of performance potential in the system when the Euro cars make something like 50 more HP than the North American version with hardly anything but an inlet manifold and exhaust system change + tune.

So then, assuming you fix all of those issues and come up with some beautiful F1 style work of art, you now have so much exhaust potential, that pulls so hard on the engine, that you now need to totally re-think your cam and cylinder head flow characteristics, while also needing to completely re-tune the engine. Only after you've optimized everything, will you get maximum benefit, but that is where the gains come from. It's a can of worms, but I honestly believe he'll find something meaningful if he goes through with it.

[cpalella]

I've used Pipemax a lot in the past ..... It's a can of worms, but I honestly believe he'll find something meaningful if he goes through with it.

That's my feeling. And I do plan on addressing the other areas to tie it all together, hence the "other projects" that I am working on. It won't all get done quickly at the same time and might take a while to pull it all off, but I will work hard to make it happen.

Any then probably throw it all out (sell it) in a couple years when I decide I want forced induction

[fastback69]

I've used Pipemax a lot in the past and you need to get the right specs and use it as a tool to find the best system. If you just hack at it, you'll get hack results --> GIGO. Those cam specs can't be at .050" or you'd be looking at an upper RPM race cam with something like 290 inlet seat duration and 280 seat duration exhaust.

I don't think those are @.050" either. Other cams in the 240/252 range have @.050" duration around 192/206 respectively. Unless we can find the info online somewhere, the stock cams will have to be degreed to find their true numbers. I'd also like to figure out the valve timing events.

[cpalella]

Pics for clicks, and to illustrate what the real deal looks like

bmwe36longtube1.jpg

5270371_orig.jpg

8377840_orig.jpg


S54, I know. The s52/s54 design is very similar
IMG_9816_zps45914eae.jpg

[FastFabM3]

This...

bmwe36longtube1.jpg

5270371_orig.jpg

... is exactly what I have been thinking of making for my car. I was planning a little different mid-section (thinking to put a muffler in the mid-pipe) and a little more muffler at the back so the noise levels aren't excessive, but that is the best header I've seen for the purpose. The tube length looks correct and it has a good collector design, doesn't look over-sized, etc.

[RRSperry]

Maybe a dose of reality here.. By the time you are running a cam big enough, and have maximized flow through the head, and exhaust. You have built yourself a race motor, that isn't going to very good in a street car. I've had my car 20 years, and have seen people try everything. You aren't the first to think of this...

If it is for a race car, by all means go ahead, but you're not going to like having no power below 3500 rpm, but it's going to be fun from 4500 to 7500 rpm.

The stock cams, or even the schricks, just won't do it for those headers.. If you get the big schrck's or the sunbelts.. Well,... race car...

[FastFabM3]

Maybe a dose of reality here.. By the time you are running a cam big enough, and have maximized flow through the head, and exhaust. You have built yourself a race motor, that isn't going to very good in a street car. I've had my car 20 years, and have seen people try everything. You aren't the first to think of this...

If it is for a race car, by all means go ahead, but you're not going to like having no power below 3500 rpm, but it's going to be fun from 4500 to 7500 rpm.

The stock cams, or even the schricks, just won't do it for those headers.. If you get the big schrck's or the sunbelts.. Well,... race car...

Why is it not possible to tune the header system to work at a lower RPM if you're building it from scratch?

The point behind using a program like Pipemax is to use the calculations in the program to ensure that all aspects of the engine build are matching and that you have made them do so at an RPM point you feel is best for your application. The ideal header system for a street engine that spends a lot of time below 4,000RPM and the ideal header for a race engine that runs above 5,000RPM 100% of the time on track, are going to be completely different in regards to tube sizing and tuned lengths. The street header would choke off the race engine at higher RPM and the race header would kill the torque output of the street engine at lower RPM, this is not rocket science (well, maybe a tiny bit).

In summery, the design aspects will be different. The look may be similar and the build quality should be the same, but they won't work the same.

[cpalella]

Maybe a dose of reality here.. By the time you are running a cam big enough, and have maximized flow through the head, and exhaust. You have built yourself a race motor, that isn't going to very good in a street car. I've had my car 20 years, and have seen people try everything. You aren't the first to think of this...

If it is for a race car, by all means go ahead, but you're not going to like having no power below 3500 rpm, but it's going to be fun from 4500 to 7500 rpm.

The stock cams, or even the schricks, just won't do it for those headers.. If you get the big schrck's or the sunbelts.. Well,... race car...

Why do you assume I wouldn't like "no power" below 4k rpm? I love driving my car at 4k plus as a dd. No problem with that. When I want power I down shift, when I want a quiet simple cruise, higher gears and lower rpms. I also plan on swapping a g420 to pair with the 3.23 lsd already in the car which will net a nice advantage in lower gears. Furthermore, the motor is in an e30. I'm sitting 500 lbs less than an e36 and you definitely feel it. Also it's not like I'll make 1 lb/ft torque before 4k and 250lb/ft after... I know what I want.

Lastly, I well aware I'm not the first as the pictures show. I just don't want to pay for it and I like the project/challenge as I already mentioned...

20 years? Are you the only owner? That's pretty cool to be honest. I wonder how many around here have been in it from the beginning. I'm just a young whipper snapper.

[cpalella]

Why is it not possible to tune the header system to work at a lower RPM if you're building it from scratch?

The point behind using a program like Pipemax is to use the calculations in the program to ensure that all aspects of the engine build are matching and that you have made them do so at an RPM point you feel is best for your application. The ideal header system for a street engine that spends a lot of time below 4,000RPM and the ideal header for a race engine that runs above 5,000RPM 100% of the time on track, are going to be completely different in regards to tube sizing and tuned lengths. The street header would choke off the race engine at higher RPM and the race header would kill the torque output of the street engine at lower RPM, this is not rocket science (well, maybe a tiny bit).

In summery, the design aspects will be different. The look may be similar and the build quality should be the same, but they won't work the same.

Agreed.

[cpalella]

Bumping this back up because I am getting close to actually going through with it.

Bought a set of euro headers. They were previously modified to fit an e30 which is great, but the welding wasn't so nice. Regardless, I wanted to cut them up to the collectors so I could design it all to fit my space limitations. I've also been considering cutting the collectors off completely and contacting burns to have them run their software and design an optimized collector, that is if I can't get the dimensions from some kind soul through pipemax and attempt to amke the piece myself (sounds like fun)









I also found this on ebay. It's listed as a "E36 Group A Motorsport exhaust" and has made in germany stamped all over it. Looks pretty legit so I saved all the photos as reference and inspiration for later. LINK Interesting to see the x pipe placement right after the headers. Unfortunately the kit is $5k so it's a little bit out of my price range by about $4700

[pbonsalb]

What about using replica Supersprint euro headers from Raceland and the replica SS euro midpipe from.member Filer in the engine classifieds here plus a stock or real or aftermarket euro rear section?

[cpalella]

What about using replica Supersprint euro headers from Raceland and the replica SS euro midpipe from.member Filer in the engine classifieds here plus a stock or real or aftermarket euro rear section?

Well, I've had the euro raceland reps before and they are just really really cheap quality and fitment wise. I already have the euro headers now, so I will use them. My application is actually an s52 swapped e30 so none of the bolt on parts will fit anyway.

[jakermac]

Well here is my custom made header being built by Vollosso here (Zack from 22rpd.com). It's designed by Burns, I bought 2 of their collectors and Vollosso fab'd the merge to Burns' specs. Its 1.5 stepped to 1.625, stepped to 1.75 tubing. The collectors are 1.75" in to 2" out. The merge is 2" in to 2.5" out and then transitions to 3" tubing. The whole exhaust is a single 3" with a cat, a resonator, a Burns (Coast Fab actually) lightweight race muffler and a Magnaflow muffler as well.

The engine is a built 3.0 running on OBD1 tuning by Vollosso currently at 270whp/240ft/lbs. The header right now is a set of the Raceland shorty headers with a nicely made collector and the previously mentioned single 3" exhaust. We're hoping to get closer to 290-300 with a change to OBD2 tuning, and bigger TB and this header set.

[pbonsalb]

Looks impressive, and expensive. Hope you get close to 300 rwhp.

[JEC928]

Subscribed!

[fastback69]

What is the O.D of the euro header primary tubes and collector?

Bumping this back up because I am getting close to actually going through with it.

Bought a set of euro headers. They were previously modified to fit an e30 which is great, but the welding wasn't so nice. Regardless, I wanted to cut them up to the collectors so I could design it all to fit my space limitations. I've also been considering cutting the collectors off completely and contacting burns to have them run their software and design an optimized collector, that is if I can't get the dimensions from some kind soul through pipemax and attempt to amke the piece myself (sounds like fun)









I also found this on ebay. It's listed as a "E36 Group A Motorsport exhaust" and has made in germany stamped all over it. Looks pretty legit so I saved all the photos as reference and inspiration for later. LINK Interesting to see the x pipe placement right after the headers. Unfortunately the kit is $5k so it's a little bit out of my price range by about $4700