E36 M3 and KW V2 Discussion

[Socali E36]

Hey guys I noticed after both searching the forum and online I was not able to find any solid feedback or info on the e36 M3 with KW V2s. I'd love get some info from those who know of the combo and or have them on their cars. I'm looking to get them for my 97 M3 Sedan.

With the little info that I found I understand that spacers will be involved for the front wheels. Is that correct? I also plan on running a square set up of rear DS2s eventually so the size of spacers and anything else involved with that would be nice to know.

I also understand that camber plates are a great addition. Maybe suggestions on plates and brands would be great too!

[ben4bama]

Consider then get the TC Kline SAs instead. The camber plates are quiet and the ride is as good as stock on their street setup. You won't be disappointed as these are custom tuned for this chassis by TC and used on his race cars. They're custom valved by Koni in Holland, not off the shelf stuff. I put these on my 98 sedan last year and love them. My buddy that has GCs said my car was the best riding e36 he's ever driven.

[Socali E36]

I'm looking to track the car as well, not just street use. How do those stack up for track use?

[ben4bama]

I'm looking to track the car as well, not just street use. How do those stack up for track use?

I tracked mine at Barbers and they did great. I have the street springs 450/550. You need to google TC Kline to get a better picture. I bought these for a reason. They're high quality and quiet.

[Socali E36]

I tracked mine at Barbers and they did great. I have the street springs 450/550. You need to google TC Kline to get a better picture. I bought these for a reason. They're high quality and quiet.

I checked them out and they are a bit more than what I feel comfortable paying. I'm able to get the V2s for $1200 new from a connect.

I'd still like to get more info about camber plates and spacers that may or may not be needed with the V2s.

[ben4bama]

You need camber plates with any coil over set as stock strut hats don't usually fit them.

[GGray]

If you want a decent set of coilovers and only want to budget around 1200 look at the ISC kits we sell. I have sold a ton of them and a lot of guys heavily track them with zero issues. I have them on my E46 touring I track and I am a habitual curb offender from years of driving race cars, just a habit.

They come with camber plates and rear shock mounts. I just picked up an E36M3 to use on track until my race car is back together I will be using the ISC kit on it along with sway Hotchkis sway bars.

They ride good and are adjustable. For the money they are hard to beat. We also have a very well developed installation sheet that I developed from tracking an E36M3 and my E46 touring. There are a few things we do different than the ISC instructions so they work substantially better when installed.

I am a fan of them and I have had a TON of suspensions on E36M3's over the years. My last one I owned for 13 years I think I had 5-6 different suspension set ups on it.

[Socali E36]

You need camber plates with any coil over set as stock strut hats don't usually fit them.

Any camber plate recommendations?

[Pat533i]

ground control camber plates

[ben4bama]

Any camber plate recommendations?

Yes, TC Kline camber only plates. They use a replaceable spherical bearing and make no noise, as many others do.

[Milney325]

To run the rear DS2s up front, you'll need at least a 12mm spacer. Even with stock suspension this is pretty well necessary. You might need 15mm with the KWs, depending on the spring setup. Make sure you get some with the hub extender.

Camber plates are a great thing to have for performance and adjustability, but are not strictly necessary. Most coilovers can be installed with stock mounts. As for a recommendation I don't have any personal experience, but have heard nothing but good things about Vorshlag plates.

[Socali E36]

To run the rear DS2s up front, you'll need at least a 12mm spacer. Even with stock suspension this is pretty well necessary. You might need 15mm with the KWs, depending on the spring setup. Make sure you get some with the hub extender. Camber plates are a great thing to have for performance and adjustability, but are not strictly necessary. Most coilovers can be installed with stock mounts. As for a recommendation I don't have any personal experience, but have heard nothing but good things about Vorshlag plates.

thanks for the great advice! Now, running 15mm spacers up front, will that make the front track wider than the rears? Would I need to space the tears out as well?

[Socali E36]

Yes, TC Kline camber only plates. They use a replaceable spherical bearing and make no noise, as many others do.

thanks!

[Socali E36]

I'm guessing I will also need stud extensions?

[ben4bama]

I'm guessing I will also need stud extensions?

I needed the 90 mm studs with my 12.5 mm spacers up front and they'll do for the 15s

[=BA=]

You need a wide spacer up front to clear the 8,5" J DSII's up front like somebody says, but there is another method.

Change the front spindles to 95 M3 ones. You will loose about a degree in negative camber though, but you can correct this by either using 95 M3 topmounts as well, or simply reversing your 96 topmounts, which will give you an additional degree.

BMW changed their front geometry on the later M3's so that the spindles are tilted and the shock sits more upright. Thats why the 96 M3 has more tire clearance issues up front than the 95 M3.

[Socali E36]

You need a wide spacer up front to clear the 8,5" J DSII's up front like somebody says, but there is another method. Change the front spindles to 95 M3 ones. You will loose about a degree in negative camber though, but you can correct this by either using 95 M3 topmounts as well, or simply reversing your 96 topmounts, which will give you an additional degree. BMW changed their front geometry on the later M3's so that the spindles are tilted and the shock sits more upright. Thats why the 96 M3 has more tire clearance issues up front than the 95 M3.

Thank you for that additional info. Ideally I'm thinking 15mm spacers with the Vorshlag camber plates. My only concern is fender clearance with the wider wheels and spacers for the front.

[ben4bama]

Can't personally confirm 15mm, but I can tell you first hand that I don't have clearance issues even on track with my 12.5 mm spacers, lowered and -2.5 camber up front running 8.5 DSII or my 8.5 LTWs

[fiveightandten]

Back up a second and ask yourself why you need coilovers. They're completely unnecessary for anyone that doesn't need/want the adjustments they're capable of (and wanting to lower by X amount isn't a valid performance reason).

That being said, i've had the TC Kline SA kit (400/400) on my car since 2009 or so and it's amazing. The ride quality, dampening characteristics, and longevity are better than factory. The hardware quality is very high. The dampers are custom valved direct from Koni. They're not some garbage no-name mystery dampers, or Konis that someone disassembled to custom valve and put back together. They have short and long springs, in any rate that you'd want to run with a Koni twin tube damper.

And if you're going to run coilovers you absolutely 100% should be running camber plates as well. The entire reason to run coilovers is to get the adjustments, so you can set up the car the way you want. This is not for novice drivers, as quite frankly, the stock car is way faster than you for some time after you start racing. However, when the time comes, it makes literally zero sense to have coilovers, but be stuck to stock alignment specs. You'll get WAY more of a change in handling and grip from alignment changes than you'll ever get out of a set of coilovers. But the 2 work together so you can set the car up properly.

You shouldn't need a 15mm spacer. I run a 12mm with my TCK's and 4 rear LTW's wrapped in 245 star specs. There's plenty of room on the inside. Bear in mind that if you run a huge spacer in the front, you throw off the track width. You have about 3 to 5mm of space in the rear (outer) to work with, so you may consider getting spacers back there so the track width is similar and the car doesn't look ridiculous. That being said, you need to keep note of where your wheel centerline is, as adding spacers almost always means you'll be stressing the wheel bearings more by loading them at the wrong angle.

But anyways, when it comes to spacers, you really need to measure and find out what kind of spacing YOU need in your car. Use other peoples' setups as a guideline. But when you slap coilovers on, you screw with a lot of tolerances, so you need to understand every change you're making, and measure, and find the spacers and studs that your particular setup requires.

Oh, you'll also need adjustable sway bar end links, as you'll be screwing with the ride heights and will most likely put preload on the bar without them. Front and rear. Avoid heim joints for a car that's driven on the street.

Coilovers require proper setup, which is more than just spinning the adjusters until it looks ok. I'd recommend you do a good amount of reading, so you understand the suspension system completely before you decide to play engineer and take on what BMW M suspension engineers did. If you think you can out-do them with $1200 in your garage, then have at it. But you should fully understand the affects of the parts you install before you buy them and fit them.

Also, IMO, there are really only 2 camber plate options for E36 M3s:
-Vorshlag: Best for event cars, when you require more than -2º, or when you need caster adjustment.
-GC Street: Best for street cars, or dual driven cars where you don't need a lot of camber, and don't need caster adjustment.

I have the Vorshlag plates on my car, and they're very high quality.

Oh, you'll also have to re-aim your lights, and keep note of the rake you're running, as it can affect how your oil dipstick reads. Oh, and you need to re-preload your RTAB's and rear subframe bushings. The lowered ride height will twist the FCAB's, so you'll need new ones set at your new ride height (or poly, which have no rotational loading).

[ben4bama]

That being said, i've had the TC Kline SA kit (400/400) on my car since 2009 or so and it's amazing. The ride quality, dampening characteristics, and longevity are better than factory. The hardware quality is very high. The dampers are custom valved direct from Koni. They're not some garbage no-name mystery dampers, or Konis that someone disassembled to custom valve and put back together. 12mm with my TCK's and 4 rear LTW's wrapped in 245 star specs. You have about 3 to 5mm of space in the rear (outer) to work with, so you may consider getting spacers back there so the track width is similar and the car doesn't look ridiculous.

I have same setup. Tck 450/550 SA but I went with TCKline camber only plates (super quiet) with 8.5 LTWs wrapped in 245 star specs with 12.5 mm front spacer, powerflex FCABs. I had NO room for any rear spacers. In fact I had 1 mm clearance with the LTWs (was ok with my DSII) and had to roll my rear fenders.
Cheers!

[fiveightandten]

I have same setup. Tck 450/550 SA but I went with TCKline camber only plates (super quiet) with 8.5 LTWs wrapped in 245 star specs with 12.5 mm front spacer, powerflex FCABs. I had NO room for any rear spacers. In fact I had 1 mm clearance with the LTWs (was ok with my DSII) and had to roll my rear fenders.
Cheers!

I'm surprised you don't have any rear room. Though it does depend on ride height and camber. I'm running maxed out camber on the stock arms. Though it's been so long since I set my ride heights, I can't remember that without measuring it again. Haha.

[ben4bama]

I'm surprised you don't have any rear room. Though it does depend on ride height and camber. I'm running maxed out camber on the stock arms. Though it's been so long since I set my ride heights, I can't remember that without measuring it again. Haha.

I had plenty of room with DSII and skinnier 245 conti DWs but the 1 mm offset difference with the LTWs and a wider 245 star spec tread ate up all the space

[Socali E36]

Back up a second and ask yourself why you need coilovers. They're completely unnecessary for anyone that doesn't need/want the adjustments they're capable of (and wanting to lower by X amount isn't a valid performance reason). That being said, i've had the TC Kline SA kit (400/400) on my car since 2009 or so and it's amazing. The ride quality, dampening characteristics, and longevity are better than factory. The hardware quality is very high. The dampers are custom valved direct from Koni. They're not some garbage no-name mystery dampers, or Konis that someone disassembled to custom valve and put back together. They have short and long springs, in any rate that you'd want to run with a Koni twin tube damper. And if you're going to run coilovers you absolutely 100% should be running camber plates as well. The entire reason to run coilovers is to get the adjustments, so you can set up the car the way you want. This is not for novice drivers, as quite frankly, the stock car is way faster than you for some time after you start racing. However, when the time comes, it makes literally zero sense to have coilovers, but be stuck to stock alignment specs. You'll get WAY more of a change in handling and grip from alignment changes than you'll ever get out of a set of coilovers. But the 2 work together so you can set the car up properly. You shouldn't need a 15mm spacer. I run a 12mm with my TCK's and 4 rear LTW's wrapped in 245 star specs. There's plenty of room on the inside. Bear in mind that if you run a huge spacer in the front, you throw off the track width. You have about 3 to 5mm of space in the rear (outer) to work with, so you may consider getting spacers back there so the track width is similar and the car doesn't look ridiculous. That being said, you need to keep note of where your wheel centerline is, as adding spacers almost always means you'll be stressing the wheel bearings more by loading them at the wrong angle. But anyways, when it comes to spacers, you really need to measure and find out what kind of spacing YOU need in your car. Use other peoples' setups as a guideline. But when you slap coilovers on, you screw with a lot of tolerances, so you need to understand every change you're making, and measure, and find the spacers and studs that your particular setup requires. Oh, you'll also need adjustable sway bar end links, as you'll be screwing with the ride heights and will most likely put preload on the bar without them. Front and rear. Avoid heim joints for a car that's driven on the street. Coilovers require proper setup, which is more than just spinning the adjusters until it looks ok. I'd recommend you do a good amount of reading, so you understand the suspension system completely before you decide to play engineer and take on what BMW M suspension engineers did. If you think you can out-do them with $1200 in your garage, then have at it. But you should fully understand the affects of the parts you install before you buy them and fit them. Also, IMO, there are really only 2 camber plate options for E36 M3s: -Vorshlag: Best for event cars, when you require more than -2º, or when you need caster adjustment. -GC Street: Best for street cars, or dual driven cars where you don't need a lot of camber, and don't need caster adjustment. I have the Vorshlag plates on my car, and they're very high quality. Oh, you'll also have to re-aim your lights, and keep note of the rake you're running, as it can affect how your oil dipstick reads. Oh, and you need to re-preload your RTAB's and rear subframe bushings. The lowered ride height will twist the FCAB's, so you'll need new ones set at your new ride height (or poly, which have no rotational loading).

Thank you for the detailed info! I know it took some time to write that up. Here is my exact set up. My KW V2s just came in. I've decided to go with the Vorshlag plates but need to call them today to find out which one of their setups is for my suspension idk which spring perch I need for this suspension. I also need to figure out which strut style I have.

My current suspension has:

-New control arms
-H&R front and rear sway bars with the poly bushings that came with them
-Powerflex control arm bushings
-Xbrace
-Mason one piece front strut bar
-Front subframe has had the reinforcement plates welded on
-New Group N motor mounts (the bimmerworld reps)
-New Poly tranny mounts
-New poly RTAB
-Rear sway bar tabs have been Welded with AKG reinforcement plates

Once I can figure out the camber plate situation then I can figure out what size of spacers I need. At this point I'm assuming I'll probably need the 12.5mm. I'll be running pilot super sports on the 8.5 rears up front.

It also looks like I need rear shock mounts as well by the looks of it since I don't see them in the packaging and won't be using the ones that came with the BC coils that I have on now. Should I purchase the stock rear shock mounts or do I need something fancy for this application?

As far as tuning the suspension I do plan on getting it aligned and corner balanced by a shop.

My purpose of this build is to have a weekend car that I can track for fun every few months or so. The car won't be driven as a daily like I used to do.

Based on all that info what recommendations do you have for me?

[fiveightandten]

Thank you for the detailed info! I know it took some time to write that up. Here is my exact set up. My KW V2s just came in. I've decided to go with the Vorshlag plates but need to call them today to find out which one of their setups is for my suspension idk which spring perch I need for this suspension. I also need to figure out which strut style I have.

My current suspension has:


-New control arms
-H&R front and rear sway bars with the poly bushings that came with them
-Powerflex control arm bushings
-Xbrace
-Mason one piece front strut bar
-Front subframe has had the reinforcement plates welded on
-New Group N motor mounts (the bimmerworld reps)
-New Poly tranny mounts
-New poly RTAB
-Rear sway bar tabs have been Welded with AKG reinforcement plates


Once I can figure out the camber plate situation then I can figure out what size of spacers I need. At this point I'm assuming I'll probably need the 12.5mm. I'll be running pilot super sports on the 8.5 rears up front.


It also looks like I need rear shock mounts as well by the looks of it since I don't see them in the packaging and won't be using the ones that came with the BC coils that I have on now. Should I purchase the stock rear shock mounts or do I need something fancy for this application?


As far as tuning the suspension I do plan on getting it aligned and corner balanced by a shop.


My purpose of this build is to have a weekend car that I can track for fun every few months or so. The car won't be driven as a daily like I used to do.


Based on all that info what recommendations do you have for me?

-With sways, you’ll need adjustable end links. This is to prevent preload on the bar, and make sure it’s at the right angle so it doesn’t bind up or stress the mounts, and so it works properly. Stay away from anything with a hiem joint on a street car, and use sealed ball joints only. There are a number of options for that, but the last time I looked the Turner motorsport ones were the best high quality end links with ball joints. Adjust so the bar is perpendicular to the front rails. Make sure you can slide the end links in and out of the holes while the car is on a level surface (get it on ramps to adjust them like this).


-Set the sways on full soft. The more suspension travel you have, the more sways work. They have a more profound affect on a stock car than they do on one with high spring rates and minimal bump travel.


-After you set your ride height, roll the rear end up on ramps and loosen (then re-tighten) the rear inner control arm bushings where they meet the subframe. This will keep them from twisting at the lower ride height. You’ve eliminated that issue with the poly RTAB’s and FCAB’s, but the inner rears are still rubber with rotational loading.


-Shock mounts are a balancing act. The harder a mount is, the longer it lasts. The softer it is, it’s less harsh on the rear shock towers. Stiffer dampers will wear stock mounts quicker. Whatever is “optimal” for your setup will depend on what your spring/shock rates are, and whether you want to worry about mounts wearing, or shock towers breaking. Whatever you run, definitely use reinforcement plates. The VAC ones are the beefiest i’ve seen. I hate VAC, but I do run their mounts. Even the OE Z3 plates are fine though. Personally, I run the Bimmerworld lifetime mounts. I’ve had them since roughly 2009, with my TC Kline SA coilovers (400/400), and they’re still going strong with no shock tower damage. But there are lots of decent RSM’s out there. Personally, i’d go soft, like OE, BW lifetime, or JTD.


-See Scott’s (joenationwide) great post on alignment. I’d run between -2.0º and -2.5º up front with zero toe, and max out the rear camber with a little bit of toe in. After they corner balance the car, keep an eye on the tires for any signs of rubbing. It’s hard to reproduce the clearances in play when the car is rolling into a corner. What doesn’t rub at rest, may rub under cornering load. Keep an eye on things for a little while.


-Now would be a good time to weld in RTAB pocket reinforcements. I’d consider those a very prudent thing to do on any E36, especially a track car.




To setup the coilovers, here’s a cut and paste from a previous thread I commented on link with more of my banter here: http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showp...0&postcount=26 ). I know you’re getting it corner balanced, but this might help to get it set up enough to drive it over there.:


You will need the following:
-A large ruler (24" or so) that measures at least down to 1/8" increments,
-A small ruler that measures down to 32nds, or at least 16ths
-A level
-Some painter's tape
-A sharpie.


1) Get the car on completely level ground. Ie. a poured garage floor.
2) Disconnect the sway bars. One side off will do.
3) Put some painters tape over the center area of each fender/quarter panel
4) Put the level up against your ruler, position the ruler with one end in the middle of the roundel on a wheel. Tilt it upright until the level indicates that it's perfectly straight. Mark that point on the fender with a sharpie. Repeat for the other 3 wheels/fenders. Any time you make a ride height measurement, make sure the ruler is on those points.
5) Measure each corner and write down the ride heights.
6) Spin the ride height adjusters in the front down the amount you want the front end to drop. I recommend using the small ruler and measuring the perch.
7) Spin the ride height adjusters in the rear down in a smaller increment. Remember that the motion ratio for the rear spring is not the same as the wheel because the spring is inboard.
8) Put the car back on the ground, drive it back about 25 feet, then forward again.
9) Measure your heights again.
10) Repeat this process until you have the heights you want. Re-check every wheel every time you change any wheel. Write down every change. If you don't, you'll wish you did.
11) Connect your sway bars. If the links don't line up with the holes, you need adjustable links.
12) Drive the car for a while, come back, see what has shifted (most likely just the rear) and readjust to compensate.


Keep the following things in mind:
1) Changing the height at any one corner will throw all the others off.
2) The goal is to get the weight distributed evenly at all 4 corners, though some forward or rearward bias may be desired. You will not really know how the weight balance is, but measure the rake between front and rear by measuring under the rocker panel so you have a rough idea (front and rear fenders are not comparable, so you can't go by those).
3) When you sit in the car, the driver's side will sag a little more than the passenger side. The stock car is staggered to compensate for this. You can predict how much your weight will make the car sag if you know your spring rates, and stagger the sides to compensate. On the E36 M3 (TCK coilovers), my driver's side is slightly less than 1/8" higher than the passanger side for this reason. The stock suspension is 1/4" higher. Lower spring rates mean more sag under the same weight.
4) Setting coilover ride height by eye with a ruler is a faulted process to begin with. The car really should be corner balanced to get it perfect. So make your measurements as accurate as you possibly can in order to minimize any measurement error/inaccuracy, paying particular attention to changes when you re-adjust, and attention to the rake.
5) This is not something you do in 5 minutes. Many people just spin the adjusters without really measuring things. To do this right will take a few hours, and numerous times of putting the car up and down, and backing it in and out to settle things.
6) Certain bushings on the car are designed to be at a position of rest when the car is at its normal ride height. When you lower the car, you twist them. This wears them prematurely and binds things up a bit. You can re-preload the RTAB's and some of the bushings in the rear subframe to compensate for this. You will need to get the car aligned again anyways, so i'd recommend pre-loading the RTAB's at your new ride height (as you can't take the carrier down without an alignment).
7) When you change the ride height (and especially the rake), your headlight aiming will be off, and you have even made your oil dipstick a bit inaccurate.

[blubimmer]

Back up a second and ask yourself why you need coilovers. They're completely unnecessary for anyone that doesn't need/want the adjustments they're capable of (and wanting to lower by X amount isn't a valid performance reason).

That being said, i've had the TC Kline SA kit (400/400) on my car since 2009 or so and it's amazing. The ride quality, dampening characteristics, and longevity are better than factory. The hardware quality is very high. The dampers are custom valved direct from Koni. They're not some garbage no-name mystery dampers, or Konis that someone disassembled to custom valve and put back together. They have short and long springs, in any rate that you'd want to run with a Koni twin tube damper.

And if you're going to run coilovers you absolutely 100% should be running camber plates as well. The entire reason to run coilovers is to get the adjustments, so you can set up the car the way you want. This is not for novice drivers, as quite frankly, the stock car is way faster than you for some time after you start racing. However, when the time comes, it makes literally zero sense to have coilovers, but be stuck to stock alignment specs. You'll get WAY more of a change in handling and grip from alignment changes than you'll ever get out of a set of coilovers. But the 2 work together so you can set the car up properly.

You shouldn't need a 15mm spacer. I run a 12mm with my TCK's and 4 rear LTW's wrapped in 245 star specs. There's plenty of room on the inside. Bear in mind that if you run a huge spacer in the front, you throw off the track width. You have about 3 to 5mm of space in the rear (outer) to work with, so you may consider getting spacers back there so the track width is similar and the car doesn't look ridiculous. That being said, you need to keep note of where your wheel centerline is, as adding spacers almost always means you'll be stressing the wheel bearings more by loading them at the wrong angle.

But anyways, when it comes to spacers, you really need to measure and find out what kind of spacing YOU need in your car. Use other peoples' setups as a guideline. But when you slap coilovers on, you screw with a lot of tolerances, so you need to understand every change you're making, and measure, and find the spacers and studs that your particular setup requires.

Oh, you'll also need adjustable sway bar end links, as you'll be screwing with the ride heights and will most likely put preload on the bar without them. Front and rear. Avoid heim joints for a car that's driven on the street.

Coilovers require proper setup, which is more than just spinning the adjusters until it looks ok. I'd recommend you do a good amount of reading, so you understand the suspension system completely before you decide to play engineer and take on what BMW M suspension engineers did. If you think you can out-do them with $1200 in your garage, then have at it. But you should fully understand the affects of the parts you install before you buy them and fit them.

Also, IMO, there are really only 2 camber plate options for E36 M3s:
-Vorshlag: Best for event cars, when you require more than -2º, or when you need caster adjustment.
-GC Street: Best for street cars, or dual driven cars where you don't need a lot of camber, and don't need caster adjustment.

I have the Vorshlag plates on my car, and they're very high quality.

Oh, you'll also have to re-aim your lights, and keep note of the rake you're running, as it can affect how your oil dipstick reads. Oh, and you need to re-preload your RTAB's and rear subframe bushings. The lowered ride height will twist the FCAB's, so you'll need new ones set at your new ride height (or poly, which have no rotational loading).

I've been putting together e36 track cars for a while. Explain what you are saying that lowering the car by x amount isn't a valid performance reason.
Lowering the center of gravity is no longer going to produce gains in handling?
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't word that correctly.