Why is so much hate on automatic cars in this section?

[thatonedood]

What was the question?

Also, this can hardly be a "debate" because it's nothing but personal preference. How can we effect change in x, y, z? That is a sort of question for debate. Why you no likey da slushbox? Not so much

[e34Croak]

What was the question?

Also, this can hardly be a "debate" because it's nothing but personal preference. How can we effect change in x, y, z? That is a sort of question for debate. Why you no likey da slushbox? Not so much

I feel as though thatonedude is provoking me. Are you questioning OP's deepness of such philosophical questions?
Have any of yous ever walked through a junkyard and stumbled across old, clapped-out, automatic BMW's? Has anyone ever asked themselves why this strange occurrence takes place? Is this phenomena specific to the Western region of the United States?

[thatonedood]

Oh you done been provokicated

[mboor]

They hold debates to decide who we want to vote in for president. Thats a matter of personal preferance also. Why not debate this issue? Like someone else said, At least its not another thread about leaking cooling systems

[thatonedood]

Lol. Yeah.. that's why they hold yelling pageants–er, debates

[demetk]

You can go faster in a 5-speed manual because of the extra gear. I think I heard that fact on top gear. Plus when you do an oil change it only takes 2 quarts in the manual vs 11 quarts for the auto. It's a mystery to me why the auto needs 9 extra quarts of oil. I mean they're almost the same size so what gives?

[priler]

You can go faster in a 5-speed manual because of the extra gear. I think I heard that fact on top gear. Plus when you do an oil change it only takes 2 quarts in the manual vs 11 quarts for the auto. It's a mystery to me why the auto needs 9 extra quarts of oil. I mean they're almost the same size so what gives?

HA! best post so far.

[Redfive]

Look. I don't think anyone here hates people who have automatic transmissions. Most of us have tried a variety of E34 and have a STRONG preference for the manuals for the reasons listed. So when new people come on here and talk up and down about their new car and it's an automatic and they didn't try to get the version we prefer we give them a hard time. We perceive as a lack of effort. Especially when they say they've been looking for a while. So of us go to long lengths to acquire or ride.
There's a certain pride some of us take in our cars. The unique factor. What we've done to them. How they look etc. Consider it an indoctrination ritual.

[E28E34]

You can go faster in a 5-speed manual because of the extra gear. I think I heard that fact on top gear. Plus when you do an oil change it only takes 2 quarts in the manual vs 11 quarts for the auto. It's a mystery to me why the auto needs 9 extra quarts of oil. I mean they're almost the same size so what gives?

Depends on the auto. It's 7 Qts. total capacity in my auto. Typical fluid change needs about 5.3-6qts and other autos need around 3qts. Top speed between a manual and an auto is only a few mph or none in some cases. Be nice guys.

[BMWM5E34]

Look. I don't think anyone here hates people who have automatic transmissions. Most of us have tried a variety of E34 and have a STRONG preference for the manuals for the reasons listed. So when new people come on here and talk up and down about their new car and it's an automatic and they didn't try to get the version we prefer we give them a hard time. We perceive as a lack of effort. Especially when they say they've been looking for a while. So of us go to long lengths to acquire or ride.
There's a certain pride some of us take in our cars. The unique factor. What we've done to them. How they look etc. Consider it an indoctrination ritual.

Why should they choose the version you prefer? And why should you give them a hard time?
I don't see the lack of effort anywhere, just different preferences.

Take for example your own 535i GTR. I don't know the exact mods that it has but it seems like a lot.
You must've invested a lot of time, money and effort to make it look and perform the way you wanted. I respect and admire that.

But is your E34 really an E34? It doesn't drive like one nor look like a standard one anymore.
So, why should the opinions of those who think that the E34 is what really isn't or who turned their E34s into something different from what it initially was be more valid than the ones from the people who love the car just as it came out of the factory??

I mean, some of you are convinced about the E34 being a sports car when it really isn't.
Most E34s sold in North America were automatic and even in Europe, the land of the manual, many of them came also in automatic (standard in the 540i which was rather unusual for the time).

¿Was the majority of initial buyers of these cars a bunch of idiots who didn't understand the true essence of the E34? They thought this was a luxury sedan for driving at higher speeds in comfort and safely.
¿Or are you just trying to convince other people on your illussion, that is: the E34 is a sports car?
¿Is this the only truth, the path to follow for all new believers?

[Redfive]

What are you looking for? These are very deep philosophical questions. And we're talking about cars here. Most of us have more than 1 so it's not like we're looking for perfection. I think I unsubscribing from this.
My car has gone through many variations over the years. I haven't been happy with everything I do to it. Sometimes I want to sell it. Sometimes I want to drive it. Sometimes I want to change it again to suit my mood. Sometimes I feel like I should have sold it years ago or gotten something else. Nothing is perfect or ideal here. It fun to do and I don't judge other people based on what I did. Sometimes I get inspired to do something someone else did. And sometimes when I'm stuck in traffic with a race clutch I wish I had an auto. But then I remember I have 400+ft lbs of torque and I can leave the car in one gear and it will be fine (I don't shift out of 4th gear on most tracks because it is easier). Sometimes I think my car would be better on the track with a flappy paddle gearbox. Or maybe I need an e46 because a large sedan is a stupid starting point for a race car.
It was my first car 17 years ago and instead of building a car from the ground up I modified this one. I'm an engineer and I didn't get a job in automotive design so I made it my hobby. There is no single element that is essence of E34 goodness.

[S61Dan]

Begining to think op is a troll...

[longwayhome23]

Begining to think op is a troll...

Perhaps, but at least it's not the old M5 versus...well, you know. It's a new and different sort of pointless argument disguised as a question. The original question was about why some people so dislike automatics. That question has been amply answered by multiple people. But instead of saying, "Oh, thanks for your input. That satisfies my curiosity," OP has been bent on demonstrating what he believes are the logical fallacies of the answers received. Rather than merely finding out why people feel as they do, he's trying to persuade them that they shouldn't feel that way. Which is all fine and dandy, except that I don't think most posters here thought that's what they were signing up for. OP wants a fun and friendly debate (something he made clear in a later post). I'm OK with that. It's just that after a while, it goes around in circles. As Hillary Clinton famously said (recently, and I paraphrase): You can't change everyone's hearts and minds. Especially if they don't want to be changed.

[BMWM5E34]

What are you looking for? These are very deep philosophical questions. And we're talking about cars here. Most of us have more than 1 so it's not like we're looking for perfection. I think I unsubscribing from this.
My car has gone through many variations over the years. I haven't been happy with everything I do to it. Sometimes I want to sell it. Sometimes I want to drive it. Sometimes I want to change it again to suit my mood. Sometimes I feel like I should have sold it years ago or gotten something else. Nothing is perfect or ideal here. It fun to do and I don't judge other people based on what I did. Sometimes I get inspired to do something someone else did. And sometimes when I'm stuck in traffic with a race clutch I wish I had an auto. But then I remember I have 400+ft lbs of torque and I can leave the car in one gear and it will be fine (I don't shift out of 4th gear on most tracks because it is easier). Sometimes I think my car would be better on the track with a flappy paddle gearbox. Or maybe I need an e46 because a large sedan is a stupid starting point for a race car.
It was my first car 17 years ago and instead of building a car from the ground up I modified this one. I'm an engineer and I didn't get a job in automotive design so I made it my hobby. There is no single element that is essence of E34 goodness.

Well, I don't think they're that philosophical. My point is that when someone introduces his new all stock automatic E34 maybe he shouldn't receive so many negative comments about the car.
After all, he has purchased what BMW intended to be purchased 20 years ago and what the majority of customers did.
Not many of them decided to put racing clutches (ceramic?), racing bucket seats or racing stiff suspensions.
This of course adds to the variety of E34 users, but it should be just the exception to the rule, which is fine, not the only good path to follow.

From your experience maybe a flappy paddle gearbox with straight toothed gears is the best thing to do, but bear in mind that your understanding of the E34 is very different from the average person's.
That's why I asked this sort of philosophical question: What's the E34? ¿Is it the old 1980s luxury sedan that once was loved and admired by many (some suggest this concept deserves nothing more than crushing) or is it just a start point to build a new and different car which doesn't behave in any way like the original car (seems like heavily modifying the car is the trend here)?

Begining to think op is a troll...

The guy has some different opinions, so he must be troll. Yeah, that makes sense.

Perhaps, but at least it's not the old M5 versus...well, you know. It's a new and different sort of pointless argument disguised as a question. The original question was about why some people so dislike automatics. That question has been amply answered by multiple people. But instead of saying, "Oh, thanks for your input. That satisfies my curiosity," OP has been bent on demonstrating what he believes are the logical fallacies of the answers received. Rather than merely finding out why people feel as they do, he's trying to persuade them that they shouldn't feel that way. Which is all fine and dandy, except that I don't think most posters here thought that's what they were signing up for. OP wants a fun and friendly debate (something he made clear in a later post). I'm OK with that. It's just that after a while, it goes around in circles. As Hillary Clinton famously said (recently, and I paraphrase): You can't change everyone's hearts and minds. Especially if they don't want to be changed.

I'm glad you understand it. There's nothing wrong with having a little friendly argument.

[E39540V8]

Can I have one of each please

[E34prease]

Begining to think op is a troll...

X2

[Binjammin]

What are you looking for? These are very deep philosophical questions. And we're talking about cars here. Most of us have more than 1 so it's not like we're looking for perfection. I think I unsubscribing from this.
My car has gone through many variations over the years. I haven't been happy with everything I do to it. Sometimes I want to sell it. Sometimes I want to drive it. Sometimes I want to change it again to suit my mood. Sometimes I feel like I should have sold it years ago or gotten something else. Nothing is perfect or ideal here. It fun to do and I don't judge other people based on what I did. Sometimes I get inspired to do something someone else did. And sometimes when I'm stuck in traffic with a race clutch I wish I had an auto. But then I remember I have 400+ft lbs of torque and I can leave the car in one gear and it will be fine (I don't shift out of 4th gear on most tracks because it is easier). Sometimes I think my car would be better on the track with a flappy paddle gearbox. Or maybe I need an e46 because a large sedan is a stupid starting point for a race car.
It was my first car 17 years ago and instead of building a car from the ground up I modified this one. I'm an engineer and I didn't get a job in automotive design so I made it my hobby. There is no single element that is essence of E34 goodness.

Let's not forget the black car or the wagon. Wagon swapped to manual, black car was manual from birth. Just because you have the red car doesn't mean you haven't had other, mostly stock e34s around. OP focusing on the race car is a little disingenuous, saying that because you have a modified e34 your opinion is invalid. I'd say you have more weight to your opinion than most, seeing that you've been in the game a lot longer than most people around here. Having modified ONE e34 as far as you have, while having had more that didn't go that far...

[Jackson42]

You asked for an opinion and I'm gonna give you several.

1. It is not hate. It is a strong preference for cars with manual transmissions.
2. BMW advertises its cars as "the ultimate driving machines." I contend in the last few years that has become less and less true because of all of the gimmicks and gizmos BMW has invented and thrust between us and the road. Witness the execrable clutch delay valve in the newer manual cars that is nothing but an admission that their manual gearboxes aren't as quick as their owners.
3. To be the ultimate driving machine, the car must give the driver the ultimate in control. I have to draw the line between purely automatic transmissions and modern automatics that have readily-accessible manual modes, as cars of E34 vintage typically do not. I travel a LOT, and that means I drive a lot of different cars with automatic transmissions. Some are good and some are bad. Dodge HemiCharger = good (well, pretty good - the way it controls engine revs in upshifts is not consistent and can become annoying); Ford Focus = bad, way, way bad, and not because of the class of car. In a Focus, you'll wonder if you've been rear-ended from time to time because of a 1-2 upshift crash when rolling slowly in heavy traffic. When I'm commuting in some distant location, I'm not interested in the ultimate driving experience; I'm just trying to get the job done, and an automatic gives me one less thing to think about when I'm dodging stupid driving in an unfamiliar place (anybody on this thread from Miami? I pity you!) Recently I had a new Camry ("bold, new Camry"? New, yes; bold, heck no!) and the darn thing had paddle shifters! Okay, that comes close to giving you the level of control you need.
4. Reliability. Think about all those tiny little parts and all those expensive electronics and all those little clutches whirring away in there. How long will it be before they go away on you? And how expensive will it be when that happens?
5. We have four BMWs in the family, the newest and only one with an automatic being an M-sport 318ti. It's a tight little car with excellent suspension, great steering and big brakes. The M44 in the ti is a rev-happy little motor, but it is totally overwhelmed by the crappy decisions made by the transmission, and putting the trans in manual mode is just an invitation to fight with it to get it to be in the gear I want it to be in when I want it to be there. I think the car would probably be a blast to drive with a manual gearbox but I'll never know. Sad. I don't like driving the car, and only because of the transmission.
6. I've spent the last several weeks on the road, with a number of different rental cars. Last night my wife picked me up at the airport in the M5. Before we were even out of the parking lot, I was ripping off perfect heel-and-toe downshifts without even thinking about it. I was immediately as one with the car. I knew I was home.

So this really cannot be a debate, as it is about personal preference. There is no right or wrong answer. It's almost like religion, or motor oil, or football. Go (put the name of your favorite team here)!

But I'd at least like the opportunity to make the choice myself without having someone else make it for me.

[mboor]

^ this post sums it up for me. I used to travel cross country for a previous job, and can relate to everything this guy said. About driving all different types of cars and transmissions, how some a better than others, especially the part about getting home from the air port and the satisfaction of a perfect heel/toe downshift letting you know your home. People that prefer automatics will never understand this.

[0reo535i]

having both auto and manual m60s, i like them both. I work construction and after some long days, i dont feel like driving a stiff clutched 6 speed, just feel like floating home in the auto 7. the 540i is for my sporty, spirited driving when i feel like throwing the ass end out in second gear from time to time. they both serve their purposes well.

the autos ive experienced in the m50 cars...eh... ill pass. but the one in my m70 and m60 cars i loved.

[wilourosen]

The V8 and V12 are both well suited for cruising. This is what they were tuned for.
You have more cylinders working so therefore the drive feels effortless. You accelerate in any gear at any rpm and the engine still pulls without any stress to it.
Its like each cylinder is helping the other.
An automatic transmission fits right in there and feel at home. The drive is simply beautiful.

[Redfive]

Not sure how my car doesn't look or drive like an E34. All the body panels are stock. All the parts were made for the car. Whether they came from BMW, M, Alpina, Hartge, Dinan etc. It all part of the BMW legacy. When I sit in it, it still smells the same. Same door closing thunk. Same unique handling characteristics of the trailing arm suspension. Oh and I have to still deal with the feel of the m30. The only difference is that some of these sensations have been turned way up. But there is no drastic departure from what it was originally.
Plus as Bin pointed out. I've owned several other e34s. In addition to other models from BMW. There is a characteristic feel of these cars. Some thing that is clearly not there in an Audi for example. You'd be a fool to mess with that.
So I think I can speak for E34s. I've sampled a lot so I can offer my opinion too. I've driven pretty much everything BMW has made in the last 2 decades at some point. A lot of those are autos too and I didn't mind them. I'm just of the strong opinion that the ones available in the E34 are terrible. As is the one in my parents 1995 Camry.

[Redfive]

BTW I've had mine for 17years. How long have you had yours? There is only one other person on here with that level of legacy. He has me beat by a couple months.
17 years ago the forums were full of original owners. So I know what they valued. I've talked to them. Hell the guy who got me to go to the track the first time was a driving instructor with a 535iA and that car could hustle.

[0reo535i]

I cant say that as im only 20, but im the 3rd owner of my e34 and either 3rd or 4th on my e32 740i.

[BMWM5E34]

Can I have one of each please

Best decision.

You asked for an opinion and I'm gonna give you several.

1. It is not hate. It is a strong preference for cars with manual transmissions.
2. BMW advertises its cars as "the ultimate driving machines." I contend in the last few years that has become less and less true because of all of the gimmicks and gizmos BMW has invented and thrust between us and the road. Witness the execrable clutch delay valve in the newer manual cars that is nothing but an admission that their manual gearboxes aren't as quick as their owners.
3. To be the ultimate driving machine, the car must give the driver the ultimate in control. I have to draw the line between purely automatic transmissions and modern automatics that have readily-accessible manual modes, as cars of E34 vintage typically do not. I travel a LOT, and that means I drive a lot of different cars with automatic transmissions. Some are good and some are bad. Dodge HemiCharger = good (well, pretty good - the way it controls engine revs in upshifts is not consistent and can become annoying); Ford Focus = bad, way, way bad, and not because of the class of car. In a Focus, you'll wonder if you've been rear-ended from time to time because of a 1-2 upshift crash when rolling slowly in heavy traffic. When I'm commuting in some distant location, I'm not interested in the ultimate driving experience; I'm just trying to get the job done, and an automatic gives me one less thing to think about when I'm dodging stupid driving in an unfamiliar place (anybody on this thread from Miami? I pity you!) Recently I had a new Camry ("bold, new Camry"? New, yes; bold, heck no!) and the darn thing had paddle shifters! Okay, that comes close to giving you the level of control you need.
4. Reliability. Think about all those tiny little parts and all those expensive electronics and all those little clutches whirring away in there. How long will it be before they go away on you? And how expensive will it be when that happens?
5. We have four BMWs in the family, the newest and only one with an automatic being an M-sport 318ti. It's a tight little car with excellent suspension, great steering and big brakes. The M44 in the ti is a rev-happy little motor, but it is totally overwhelmed by the crappy decisions made by the transmission, and putting the trans in manual mode is just an invitation to fight with it to get it to be in the gear I want it to be in when I want it to be there. I think the car would probably be a blast to drive with a manual gearbox but I'll never know. Sad. I don't like driving the car, and only because of the transmission.
6. I've spent the last several weeks on the road, with a number of different rental cars. Last night my wife picked me up at the airport in the M5. Before we were even out of the parking lot, I was ripping off perfect heel-and-toe downshifts without even thinking about it. I was immediately as one with the car. I knew I was home.

So this really cannot be a debate, as it is about personal preference. There is no right or wrong answer. It's almost like religion, or motor oil, or football. Go (put the name of your favorite team here)!

But I'd at least like the opportunity to make the choice myself without having someone else make it for me.

1. Then it's completely fine.
2. That slogan can be very subjective, but I get you.
3. Yes and no. I see your point, but BMW doesn't build hardcore machines only. In fact, they only build a few of those.
In a 5 Series and 7 Series you want comfort. I see people complaining about the E34's steering for not being as communicative as they wished. For me that doesn't make much sense, it's like complaining about a Lotus Elise for not having big electric leather seats, power steering, power windows, Connolly leather, etc.
That's missing the point and the true purpose of the car!

In a comfort oriented vehicle you want the steering to be connected to the road, but not so much because it makes the driving less comfortable; you may want an automatic transmission to add comfort; leather seats; sunshades; wood trim to give the interior a warmer feel; etc.
The E34 retains that enthusiastic driving experience, but it's in essence an executive sedan.
Even the more radical versions such as the M5 or the Alpinas retain that refined gentleman's drive.

This same story happens with the E31 8 Series. A lot of people look at its low sleek design and think it's a sports car, then they go on the hunt after a used one and realise rather disappointingly that 95% of them are automatic!
This comes from a misunderstanding of the car's essence. It is a two ton GT, not a sports car, and that's why the majority of buyers chose the automatic.

Anyway, tell me what the automatic transmission in the E34 doesn't allow you to do. You're in full control of the vehicle at anytime through the different driving modes. Yes, the manual gives you that bit of extra control, but this is especially noticeable in a sports car.

4. I give you that, but if we cared so much about reliability we would be all driving around in mechanically simple econoboxes from Toyota or Dacia.

5. The M44 doesn't go that well with the automatic. In fact, I think all 318is in Europe were manual.
As mentioned before by other users, some transmissions suit some engines and others don't.
When it comes to the 540i I think it works well with both, maybe the 525i wouln't feel right as an auto as the engine is so peaky.

6. Oh boy, the M5 is just another story!

You are right, it's about personal preferences.

having both auto and manual m60s, i like them both. I work construction and after some long days, i dont feel like driving a stiff clutched 6 speed, just feel like floating home in the auto 7. the 540i is for my sporty, spirited driving when i feel like throwing the ass end out in second gear from time to time. they both serve their purposes well.

the autos ive experienced in the m50 cars...eh... ill pass. but the one in my m70 and m60 cars i loved.

They're both enjoyable, but yes, in different contexts as you said.

The V8 and V12 are both well suited for cruising. This is what they were tuned for.
You have more cylinders working so therefore the drive feels effortless. You accelerate in any gear at any rpm and the engine still pulls without any stress to it.
Its like each cylinder is helping the other.
An automatic transmission fits right in there and feel at home. The drive is simply beautiful.

I couldn't agree more, sir.

Big engine with multiple cylinders and generous displacement + torque converter = perfection.

I always thought the Americans got this formula so well applied to their cars, being part of their automotive culture.
That's why I was a bit shocked when I realised just how many people in this section seem to hate this idea!! Couldn't believe it...

Not sure how my car doesn't look or drive like an E34. All the body panels are stock. All the parts were made for the car. Whether they came from BMW, M, Alpina, Hartge, Dinan etc. It all part of the BMW legacy. When I sit in it, it still smells the same. Same door closing thunk. Same unique handling characteristics of the trailing arm suspension. Oh and I have to still deal with the feel of the m30. The only difference is that some of these sensations have been turned way up. But there is no drastic departure from what it was originally.
Plus as Bin pointed out. I've owned several other e34s. In addition to other models from BMW. There is a characteristic feel of these cars. Some thing that is clearly not there in an Audi for example. You'd be a fool to mess with that.
So I think I can speak for E34s. I've sampled a lot so I can offer my opinion too. I've driven pretty much everything BMW has made in the last 2 decades at some point. A lot of those are autos too and I didn't mind them. I'm just of the strong opinion that the ones available in the E34 are terrible. As is the one in my parents 1995 Camry.

I woun't say your E34 isn't a drastic departure from the original concept. I'm not saying this in a bad way, don't get me wrong.

Sure, Audis have their engines hanging over the front headlights.

I've also driven several cars in my very short experience compared to yours and I wouldn't say the automatic in the E34 is bad. Not at all.
I've tested ZF8, 7G Tronic and such, of course they're at another level, but still the ZF 5HP30 feels great!!

BTW I've had mine for 17years. How long have you had yours? There is only one other person on here with that level of legacy. He has me beat by a couple months.
17 years ago the forums were full of original owners. So I know what they valued. I've talked to them. Hell the guy who got me to go to the track the first time was a driving instructor with a 535iA and that car could hustle.

You got me there.
I had a previous 525i manual and then this 540iA for about three years now. But then, I only have my driving license for five.

I wasn't doubting of your experience, just put as an example your car for not being stock.

I cant say that as im only 20, but im the 3rd owner of my e34 and either 3rd or 4th on my e32 740i.

Almost the same here. lol