Time for an Upgrade...finally!

[Butters Stoch]

550-600whp out of the car with pump gas

The inevitable bench racing has begun...

I remember how generally happy Philip was with his GT3582R on the street in all conditions and the arrival of the GTX4088R.
It was very exciting Philip upgraded and headed for the track and started blowing up his drive train. Everyone was happy.

But as age and time settles in it seems the GTX4088 wasn't the unicorn horn elixir that we had hoped. Maybe a magic T4, tubular, split, polished steedspeed turbo manifold will make the magic ponies appear down low.

Our little truck engines just don't spin very fast but they have an extremely usable power band. The magic harmonic balancer didn't let us shift at 8k and there just isn't that much that needs balancing in the assembly.

The fully streetable, low lag, 600+ HP e36 3.2l still hasn't appeared. 500hp with 500 foot pounds of torque however is an awful lot of car for just about anyone. It wasn't that long ago when those kind of numbers on a Dodge Viper with a v10 truck engine were considered insane. The other thing is that this is a formula that can be put together that can actually hold together with only a reasonable maintenance schedule and very little engine investment.

So since the GTX4088R turned up a few years ago has there been anything new that might provide quicker spool up between shifts and in low boost that will let us run on pump gas (93) with nothing more than a little water/methonal for track days?

6466, 6266 will both fit the bill. The 6266 will easily do 600. But also look at the Garrett gtw 6265 and 6465. Lets not forget the gtx35r or even the gt35r with a 1.06 housing. Im sure the huge EFR will do it as well, but you know https://youtu.be/iVqiUhAv01c

[chikinhed]

I think that I've had a pretty good go of it so far with the GTX3582R on the street and at track days. I've been at 20-24 psi on the street depending on fuel in the tank and I turned it down to 18 psi at my last track day I went to. I'll try to get to a dyno soon but I would imagine it will do much better than the 620 whp @ 20 psi it did a couple years ago. After messing with the cams I was able to reduce the transient response time down to 0.3 seconds (time to get from 0 psi to 20 psi during a shift, shifting normally)

The new Steedspeed will probably recover a bunch of Phillips lost 'fun'. The only thing that I am concerned about with the new Steedspeed is the sharp corners the exhaust is asked to turn which may affect the flow at the top end on the bigger turbos. If not then the GTX4088R/Steed TS might still be the holy grail combo. Soon the new Star Wars will be released along side the Steedspeed TS mani. That will give us something to talk about for a while.

Sent from my GTX3582R

[pbonsalb]

550-600whp out of the car with pump gas

The inevitable bench racing has begun...

I remember how generally happy Philip was with his GT3582R on the street in all conditions and the arrival of the GTX4088R.
It was very exciting Philip upgraded and headed for the track and started blowing up his drive train. Everyone was happy.

But as age and time settles in it seems the GTX4088 wasn't the unicorn horn elixir that we had hoped. Maybe a magic T4, tubular, split, polished steedspeed turbo manifold will make the magic ponies appear down low.

Our little truck engines just don't spin very fast but they have an extremely usable power band. The magic harmonic balancer didn't let us shift at 8k and there just isn't that much that needs balancing in the assembly.

The fully streetable, low lag, 600+ HP e36 3.2l still hasn't appeared. 500hp with 500 foot pounds of torque however is an awful lot of car for just about anyone. It wasn't that long ago when those kind of numbers on a Dodge Viper with a v10 truck engine were considered insane. The other thing is that this is a formula that can be put together that can actually hold together with only a reasonable maintenance schedule and very little engine investment.

So since the GTX4088R turned up a few years ago has there been anything new that might provide quicker spool up between shifts and in low boost that will let us run on pump gas (93) with nothing more than a little water/methonal for track days?

Actually, I fused the clutches, broke the driveshafts, and broke the diff output shafts with the GT3582R. The only thing I have broken with the GTX4088R is the transmission.

I had 600 rwhp at 21 psi with the GT3582R but was getting bored and wanted more. However I wanted to run pump plus meth not race gas so that meant a bigger turbo that could make more power without much more boost. I have not been back to the dyno. It may be that the smoother onset of the bigger turbo masks the power and it just does not feel as exciting even though there is more power. I'll have to dyno to see.

I am not unhappy but just not as excited as I thought I would be. I would not go back to the GT3582R. The best compromise may be a mid size turbo. I am not sure yet. Hopefully more people will be trying mid size turbos and we will get some results.

[litemup]

Don't use my car as an example. I pushed that thing to the limit. That being said, I truly believe the .82 A/R T3 turbine housing was the choke point, not the manifold design itself. Just my opinion based upon my expert eyeball analysis.

[litemup]

The heat retention characteristics of cast iron aren't matched well for high power anyway though.

[Butters Stoch]

Just my opinion based upon my expert eyeball analysis.

Maybe more than just eyeball expert. Me thinks sometimes experience is greater than theory and maths.
Why don't we ever see a gt3788 ?
Seems like a nice in between turbo. All I've heard is on paper it sounded nice till Kam tried it.

[JuCo]

Alot of Great points by some long time turbo cars from the forum. I appreciate the feedback guys. I was really planning on getting a GT4094R up until last week when I talked to a local shop about some really good prices on a 6766.

To be honest this is not a track monster planning to be built. This is my weekend car which maybe see's 800-1000 miles a year. Hopefully more if I really enjoy it! I want more power than the current 400whp. I also wanted to get these gains on pump fuel. I'm a big shit talker and I'd rather fill up at any gas station on the corner and my car perform. My reason for the bigger turbo was for it's option to upgrade other parts of the car in the future. This is a car I've owned for 10 years and don't plan on selling so it will constantly be updated.

While I will admit that I could get a really nice tubular mani or get a steedspeed that would flow better I don't think I will be touching those types of power levels to realize gains of 40/60+whp at 600+ levels to make a huge difference to me. Also I am seeing alot of people refer to my SPA as a T3; I know when I purchased it I was under the impression it was a T4 style manifold are we saying this is untrue?

I can certainly get the manifold port n polish to clean it up a bit also plan on heat ceramic coating as I did my current TT manifold, I'm just not sure how much more power I'm seeking in doing so. I only plan on running the turbo at lower levels 17-22psi and think my current goals can be achieved with this setup.

Now back to my question as far as room for mounting the turbo to the bottom mount spa, how much room do I have to run either the GT4094R or 6766 and not have to grind or modify anything. I'm going for ease here I want to bolt it up and just get some custom piping made and drive the car. I guess I would also ask about either turbo with the mounting position would I need a sump?

Also another reason I was looking at the 6766 over the 6266 was how the power would come on, having the larger compressor side I was thinking that my torque would come on later.

[vollosso]

The 66 comes on a bit later more like 4k versus like 3500 of a 35r.

I think the turbo will make power but i think youll see spool like a gt40 sized turbo and flow like a 6262.

Food for thought from an engineer who does cfd regularly.

[Fender13Bender]

I absolutely love my GT4094R on a 3.0 with a twin scroll tubular manifold.

Spools about the same as my buddies 2.5 with a small (don't remember exactly size) GT35R.

[chikinhed]

The heat retention characteristics of cast iron aren't matched well for high power anyway though.

From the Subie dyno charts I've looked at they often provide two dynos, one cold exhaust manifold and one hot and the hot always shows better response so I assumed the heat retention was a good thing except after I shut the engine off.

Sent from my GTX3582R

[hsvturbo]

I thinks more folks should be dynoing there cars with their new set ups.

[chikinhed]

Avee (S362 billet wheel) is ready to hit the dyno so maybe in the next couple of weeks it will happen.

Sent from my GTX3582R

[vollosso]

Alot of Great points by some long time turbo cars from the forum. I appreciate the feedback guys. I was really planning on getting a GT4094R up until last week when I talked to a local shop about some really good prices on a 6766. To be honest this is not a track monster planning to be built. This is my weekend car which maybe see's 800-1000 miles a year. Hopefully more if I really enjoy it! I want more power than the current 400whp. I also wanted to get these gains on pump fuel. I'm a big shit talker and I'd rather fill up at any gas station on the corner and my car perform. My reason for the bigger turbo was for it's option to upgrade other parts of the car in the future. This is a car I've owned for 10 years and don't plan on selling so it will constantly be updated. While I will admit that I could get a really nice tubular mani or get a steedspeed that would flow better I don't think I will be touching those types of power levels to realize gains of 40/60+whp at 600+ levels to make a huge difference to me. Also I am seeing alot of people refer to my SPA as a T3; I know when I purchased it I was under the impression it was a T4 style manifold are we saying this is untrue? I can certainly get the manifold port n polish to clean it up a bit also plan on heat ceramic coating as I did my current TT manifold, I'm just not sure how much more power I'm seeking in doing so. I only on running the turbo at lower levels 17-22psi and think my current goals can be achieved with this setup. Now back to my question as far as room for mounting the turbo to the bottom mount spa, how much room do I have to run either the GT4094R or 6766 and not have to grind or modify anything. I'm going for ease here I want to bolt it up and just get some custom piping made and drive the car. I guess I would also ask about either turbo with the mounting position would I need a sump? Also another reason I was looking at the 6766 over the 6266 was how the power would come on, having the larger compressor side I was thinking that my torque would come on later.

Big turbo for 600hp.

[futureroadracer]

I'll be running a SPA T4 with a 4088r. I previously ran a tubular top mount with a 4088r so it'll be interesting to see how the SPA compares...

[e30kid89]

I know it's an apples to oranges comparison but there are some cast manifolds being used on supras that are making 1100whp. Closest comparison to our platform.



http://youtu.be/Bh9N4Xi6c5s

I'd love to see high boost, 3.5-4" exhaust, T4 spa and what an 64-67mm turbo can do on our motors.

[JuCo]

Big turbo for 600hp.

Korrect! I'm in the boat i'm in now cause I didn't start with a bigger turbo. While I love the t60-1 and its spool at right around 3k the top-end dies off too soon for me. I figure this time I'll give myself headroom. I mean maybe one day I might wanna make 850whp ;-)

I'll be running a SPA T4 with a 4088r. I previously ran a tubular top mount with a 4088r so it'll be interesting to see how the SPA compares...

Very nice, I'd love to see the results when do you plan on making the change? I'd like to havemy car up and running by mid Nov.

I know it's an apples to oranges comparison but there are some cast manifolds being used on supras that are making 1100whp. Closest comparison to our platform.

I've always thought that the engines were similar and that power could be made on both platforms.



http://youtu.be/Bh9N4Xi6c5s

I'd love to see high boost, 3.5-4" exhaust, T4 spa and what an 64-67mm turbo can do on our motors.

Perhaps I might go that route just want to know if the turbo will fit without any problems.

[pbonsalb]

I would not buy an 850 hp turbo to make 600 hp. Buy a 600-700 hp turbo. When you make 650 and want 800 buy the 850 turbo. I just went through this and the tradeoff is noticeable

[e36ALPINE]

Are those turbo specs whp? Or crank. At these numbers it's quite different.

[litemup]

The 66 comes on a bit later more like 4k versus like 3500 of a 35r. I think the turbo will make power but i think youll see spool like a gt40 sized turbo and flow like a 6262. Food for thought from an engineer who does cfd regularly.

From what I've seen the 66 turbine spools much sooner. Might want to look into that a little further.
Here is a 6266, gtx35r, and 4094 overlay that I posted a long time ago. Both the 6266 and gtx35r were on a 100 octane.

[litemup]

From the Subie dyno charts I've looked at they often provide two dynos, one cold exhaust manifold and one hot and the hot always shows better response so I assumed the heat retention was a good thing except after I shut the engine off. Sent from my GTX3582R

Heat retention has an effect on exhaust energy and would aid in spooling the turbo, but I assume as you go further up in power and generate more and more heat then it can be detrimental to have the manifold absorb heat and not expel it. I don't know, I'm not an engineer, but it makes sense.

[RobertFontaine]

From what I've seen the 66 turbine spools much sooner. Might want to look into that a little further.
Here is a 6266, gtx35r, and 4094 overlay that I posted a long time ago. Both the 6266 and gtx35r were on a 100 octane.

What motor are these graphs for?

Heat retention has an effect on exhaust energy and would aid in spooling the turbo, but I assume as you go further up in power and generate more and more heat then it can be detrimental to have the manifold absorb heat and not expel it. I don't know, I'm not an engineer, but it makes sense.

[Butters Stoch]

What motor are these graphs for?

All S52.

[RobertFontaine]

Life is beautiful. Now can I borrow 10k and a cup of sugar

[vollosso]

From what I've seen the 66 turbine spools much sooner. Might want to look into that a little further. Here is a 6266, gtx35r, and 4094 overlay that I posted a long time ago. Both the 6266 and gtx35r were on a 100 octane.

i agree. I was talking about the 67mm compressor being too large For both his goals and that 600hp manifold.

[chikinhed]

Why is the GT4094R so weak for the psi its at?

Sent from my GTX3582R