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Thread: Time for an Upgrade...finally!

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    TURBO 99 M3, F82 M4

    Time for an Upgrade...finally!

    So I've been turbocharged since late 2006. I purchased one of the older style Technique Tuning kits. It was a vast improvement over the stock setup. It has been a really reliable yet power adding kit and I have enjoyed the car for years, but now feel that it is time to move on to something bigger and better.

    Link to old thread from forever ago http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ther-TT-Stg-II

    I've been lurking the Forced Induction forum for many years to keep up-to-date with the newer vendors, tuners, and products that are being introduced to the market. I'm really quite the recluse and don't often tout my setup or flaunt my car. It is the last year of the E36 M3 in the US being a 1999 and has been turbocharged since 62k, with the car now sitting at 97k. I'm not looking to fully build the car or go to extreme. I'm looking for what I consider a decent upgrade that will leave room to grow. I'd like to get 550-600whp out of the car with pump gas. This car is not my daily driver, but I would like something that runs solid and can be a fun weekend car. I'm not looking to build the motor at this time as I don't see a reason to, I'm not a drifter or professional racer so the car will see some events/track time from time to time and many local car meets.

    I usually keep things to myself, but I would like to poll the FI community here and ask given my goals what setup you would think could achieve my goals and not break the bank.

    Here is what I'm thinking so far:

    RK tuning/Nick G
    SPA T4 bottom Mount will most likely ceramic coat it as current TT manifold is swain coated and the engine temp has been no issue.
    Already have Rally Road motor mount.
    Turbo options: GT4094R or 6466 or Borg warner given the fitment works. (I'm open to many options however proven numbers work best for me as I'm not into breaking records or being a guinea pig.)
    I also would like to note my current setup uses water and oil cooling so it might be easy to retain this. The fewer modifications I have to make the better.
    Turbo piping (what are my best options?) I'm not a welder, but i'm not looking for some picaso work of art either in this case function far exceeds for to me.
    Current intercooler is anodized black and car is such a sleeper (not sure if I should retain this or show-out with a nice pearly smile.) Open to options would need to cool atleast 700-1000hp for future gains.
    Current WG is 38mm going to upgrade to 40/44mm thinking of staying TIAL.
    Cooling system is already upgraded have a alum thermostat, new hoses, SPAL puller fan, mishimoto alum rad, and e46 m3 clutch fan.
    Oil feed options? Currently run a Rally Road distribution block, seems to work great however open to other options.
    Manifold/ICV boost leaks issues - Looks like the MAX PSI kit is a great option (currently have M50 manifold conversion and Eurosport adapter and custom alum elbow.)
    New MLS gasket/ARP studs with less than 2k on it. (Might purchase Cut-ring are they still on sale?)
    Boost controller - Currently have Greddy Profec Spec-II however anyone who has used this knows that it's not user friendly so I am considering the Eboost2.
    Fuel upgrades? Currently have intank walbro 255 would want to upgrade to a single 450 with E85 and new fuel lines 3/2valve delete with (aeromotive model # ?) FPR. Also larger injectors should I go 60 or 80 considering my goals?
    Open to fuel rail/fitting upgrades (would like suggestions.) Please include links if possible.
    Suspension has Powerflex rtabs/lcabs and ucc black trans mounts, and new guibo.
    Brake system - Front BBK Wilwood with stainless lines all around.
    I'll probably edit this and add more as I think of it.

    Cosmetic upgrades for consideration would include a seperate trunk with LTW wing and Mateo diffuser.


    For any of the input you guys have please list your reasoning behind it to support the product, vendor, etc. I'm not looking to pit anyone or anything against anyone, just want to see all my available options.

    I've been a long time member of this community and I value the input of the members here.

    Thanks in advance and I hope to have updates very soon after I make the final decisions.

    Car currently:

    7878239308_712d495271_b.jpg 7909097282_e67c64c8d9_b.jpg 7909091652_6c2bd42f4b_b.jpg
    Last edited by JuCo; 07-31-2015 at 08:02 PM.
    Mod list - M50 manifold; TechniqueTuning Stg2, Apex Arc-8, ZKW euro, clear corners Mike R diffbrace, Koni Yell with HR race
    X-brace UCC tranny mounts -BLK/with enforcers, powerflex rtabs,lcabs, AAfanclutch, mishimoto rad, UCC Ultra-cerametallic Clutch.
    You will go through days of joy and days of sadness as the pursuit for power leads to madness...

  2. #2
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    If your gonna go with a big bottom mount turbo, wait for the new twin scroll steedspeed to come out. If your going over 450whp you should seriously consider better connecting rods.

  3. #3
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    Finally! Lol.

    honestly the best turbo for 600whp on pump gas for a street car is IMHO the 4094r, spools at the right time on a 3.2 so it doesn't rip the tires off and makes 600whp on stock cams without meth at around 18-19psi.

    Nice meeting you btw, hope to come down to FL this year or the next!

  4. #4
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    I love your car. It's looks great.

    I'm gonna agree with the gt4094 being the way to go.

    '97 M3/4 3.0l "Frankenstein" 760whp
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  5. #5
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    Also with some shricks you can make 670-680whp at the same boost level with more spool.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith1054 View Post
    If your gonna go with a big bottom mount turbo, wait for the new twin scroll steedspeed to come out. If your going over 450whp you should seriously consider better connecting rods.
    I can't say I see a huge difference as to an advantage for my intended uses the twinscroll would be awesome but something that is likely to be 2-4x times more expensive than my current option would need some justification. I'm not racing it for sport, just fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by E36 HateR View Post
    Finally! Lol.

    honestly the best turbo for 600whp on pump gas for a street car is IMHO the 4094r, spools at the right time on a 3.2 so it doesn't rip the tires off and makes 600whp on stock cams without meth at around 18-19psi.

    Nice meeting you btw, hope to come down to FL this year or the next!
    Frank, I know right! Those were my thoughts exactly easier on the drive line and stock motor, yet cranks out big power. Really nice meeting you too man. Hope to make it to MPAct next year with the car. If your coming down to FL we will def tag up.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPearlZ View Post
    I love your car. It's looks great.

    I'm gonna agree with the gt4094 being the way to go.
    thanks bro! I've been thinking about this for atleast the past 3 years....just haven't moved on it. No better time than the present.

    Quote Originally Posted by E36 HateR View Post
    Also with some shricks you can make 670-680whp at the same boost level with more spool.
    Great to know, don't really want to open her up, but if I did I'd have to swap those in for the added benefit.
    Last edited by JuCo; 08-02-2015 at 11:54 AM.
    Mod list - M50 manifold; TechniqueTuning Stg2, Apex Arc-8, ZKW euro, clear corners Mike R diffbrace, Koni Yell with HR race
    X-brace UCC tranny mounts -BLK/with enforcers, powerflex rtabs,lcabs, AAfanclutch, mishimoto rad, UCC Ultra-cerametallic Clutch.
    You will go through days of joy and days of sadness as the pursuit for power leads to madness...

  7. #7
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    Well im saying about the cams for in the next 2-3 years, the turbo upgrade is really serious, ICS 4094r cars used to rape. Ms109 and 24-25psi used to show 800whp with cams.

    It has headroom for when you get bored in the future but enough POW for right now.

  8. #8
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    Just talked to Chris about the cams, I like where that might go.

    Also I'm looking at the swapping to the 750il diff. I see the kit that Rally Road sells, however does it bolt to my current 99 M3 drive shaft? If not do I need an adapter plate or another driveshaft?
    Mod list - M50 manifold; TechniqueTuning Stg2, Apex Arc-8, ZKW euro, clear corners Mike R diffbrace, Koni Yell with HR race
    X-brace UCC tranny mounts -BLK/with enforcers, powerflex rtabs,lcabs, AAfanclutch, mishimoto rad, UCC Ultra-cerametallic Clutch.
    You will go through days of joy and days of sadness as the pursuit for power leads to madness...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuCo View Post
    Just talked to Chris about the cams, I like where that might go. Also I'm looking at the swapping to the 750il diff. I see the kit that Rally Road sells, however does it bolt to my current 99 M3 drive shaft? If not do I need an adapter plate or another driveshaft?
    I believe you have the 6 bolt flange. If that is the case then yes the m3 drive shaft will fit.
    soon to be.....
    1996 328i

    built motor:
    Molnar rods
    wiseco 8.5:1 pistons
    main bearings
    rod bearings
    all new gaskets etc
    .070 cometic head gasket
    s52 cams
    supertech dual valve springs

    60# injector technica tune
    pt6266 84 ar t4 flange
    26x12x3 intercooler
    2.5" hot side and 3" cold side piping
    tial 44mm wastegate
    obx top mount
    3" straight pipe

  10. #10
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    I see, I was under the impression the 750 diff was a 4 bolt. I was told I'd need a 95 drive shaft. If this isn't the case then I'd really considering this.
    Mod list - M50 manifold; TechniqueTuning Stg2, Apex Arc-8, ZKW euro, clear corners Mike R diffbrace, Koni Yell with HR race
    X-brace UCC tranny mounts -BLK/with enforcers, powerflex rtabs,lcabs, AAfanclutch, mishimoto rad, UCC Ultra-cerametallic Clutch.
    You will go through days of joy and days of sadness as the pursuit for power leads to madness...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuCo View Post
    I see, I was under the impression the 750 diff was a 4 bolt. I was told I'd need a 95 drive shaft. If this isn't the case then I'd really considering this.
    It's definitely a 6 bolt flange, I know from personal experience, I have the 750 diff jn my car, quite an easy up grade for what it sounds like too
    soon to be.....
    1996 328i

    built motor:
    Molnar rods
    wiseco 8.5:1 pistons
    main bearings
    rod bearings
    all new gaskets etc
    .070 cometic head gasket
    s52 cams
    supertech dual valve springs

    60# injector technica tune
    pt6266 84 ar t4 flange
    26x12x3 intercooler
    2.5" hot side and 3" cold side piping
    tial 44mm wastegate
    obx top mount
    3" straight pipe

  12. #12
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    Check this link out, I'm sure there is a bunch of other threads on it as well,

    http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...iff-conversion
    soon to be.....
    1996 328i

    built motor:
    Molnar rods
    wiseco 8.5:1 pistons
    main bearings
    rod bearings
    all new gaskets etc
    .070 cometic head gasket
    s52 cams
    supertech dual valve springs

    60# injector technica tune
    pt6266 84 ar t4 flange
    26x12x3 intercooler
    2.5" hot side and 3" cold side piping
    tial 44mm wastegate
    obx top mount
    3" straight pipe

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ziptied View Post
    Check this link out, I'm sure there is a bunch of other threads on it as well,

    http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...iff-conversion
    Ok, great thread found my answer.

    Apparently 10/96-99 M3 US have the 4 bolt flange. FML.

    Can you just buy a flange or do you need an entire new driveshaft?


    "The six bolt driveshaft came standard on the '95 E36 M3. '96 and above M3's came with the 4 bolt driveshafts. The european evo M3's that came with the 6 speed tranny also had a 6 bolt driveshaft (that was shorter than the 5 speed driveshaft due to the larger tranny), and was matched to the euro diff (which was also bigger than the us spec diffs.., almost identical to the 750 diff conversion we did)... except the euro diff was a 3:64 instead of the 3:15"
    Mod list - M50 manifold; TechniqueTuning Stg2, Apex Arc-8, ZKW euro, clear corners Mike R diffbrace, Koni Yell with HR race
    X-brace UCC tranny mounts -BLK/with enforcers, powerflex rtabs,lcabs, AAfanclutch, mishimoto rad, UCC Ultra-cerametallic Clutch.
    You will go through days of joy and days of sadness as the pursuit for power leads to madness...

  14. #14
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    Not true....my 97 M3 has the 6 bolt flange...never been changed, swapped, or anything else...build date, 10/96. Maybe i got the last one?

    http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=26_0108

    Shows a 6 bolt as well. My e30 is 4 bolt. I don't think they went 4 bolt to 6 bolt and back to 4 bolt?
    Last edited by BMWManiac; 08-07-2015 at 10:18 AM.
    1997 Arctic Silver/Black M3
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  15. #15
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    The 4 & 6 bolt was random. The date range isn't an accurate way of knowing. My 97 is also 6 bolt.

    You can change the input flange on the 210 diff to 4 bolt but you run the risk of changing the preload on the input shaft bearings and messing up the mesh of the ring and pinion gears. It can be done but you will have to check everything after.

    Sent from my GTX3582R
    Last edited by chikinhed; 08-07-2015 at 11:56 AM.
    '97 M3, Estoril blue, 2 dr, euro 6-spd, EFR 9180 divided T4 .92 IWG, RK tuning, CP 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, Schrick cams, L19 11 mm ARP studs, O-ringed block, Supertech stainless/inconel valves, Supertech springs & Ti retainers, ported head, S54 oil pump/pan, 80 lb. injectors, OBD1 intake manifold, Steedspeed twin scroll T4, 3.5" SS exhaust, eBoost2 EBC, HFS-4 W/M injection, AEM Failsafe, Zeitronix data logger, Racelogic TC, OpenOBC w. ethanol %, Ireland Eng. engine mounts, UUC black tranny mounts w. enforcers, UUC twin disc feramic, ARC-8's, MCS 2-ways, Z3 rack, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Eibach sway bars, Ground Control LCAB bushings, Bimmerworld RTAB's, Powerflex subframe bushings, 210 4-clutch LSD, Stoptech BBK, titainium shims, steel braided lines, brake cooling ducts.

  16. #16
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    I would say something a tad smaller than a gt40 for that power level. A 64mm compressor and. A 65-66mm exhaust wheel would be very nice. Plus it splits the difference so you keep some spool.
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  17. #17
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    For 550-600 rwhp, a GT3582R with 0.82 T4 housing and T04S cover works. A GTX3582R has maybe 10% more top end potential and should lose very little spool. A PT 6262 should be very similar, as would an HTA 3586R. A PT 6266 would also be more than sufficient. One advantage of the smaller turbo is that you can spend more time in boost in more of your driving because the spool is a few hundred rpm faster.

    I did not change from my GT3582R until I had made 600 rwhp SAE Dynojet with it and still wanted more. I think I have more (0.95 GTX4088R), but definitely lost some response and I notice that in my daily driving. If I did not want more than 600 rwhp (I want 700 rwhp), then I would not have gotten a bigger, slower turbo.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWManiac View Post
    Not true....my 97 M3 has the 6 bolt flange...never been changed, swapped, or anything else...build date, 10/96. Maybe i got the last one?

    http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=26_0108

    Shows a 6 bolt as well. My e30 is 4 bolt. I don't think they went 4 bolt to 6 bolt and back to 4 bolt?
    I'm gonna have to check mine out to see what kinda luck I have.


    Quote Originally Posted by vollosso View Post
    I would say something a tad smaller than a gt40 for that power level. A 64mm compressor and. A 65-66mm exhaust wheel would be very nice. Plus it splits the difference so you keep some spool.
    I just don't wanna have to ring it out to get the power I am looking for, I hear what you are saying about the spool.

    Quote Originally Posted by chikinhed View Post
    The 4 & 6 bolt was random. The date range isn't an accurate way of knowing. My 97 is also 6 bolt.

    You can change the input flange on the 210 diff to 4 bolt but you run the risk of changing the preload on the input shaft bearings and messing up the mesh of the ring and pinion gears. It can be done but you will have to check everything after.

    More than one makes me think that I might be lucky! I'll check it out and report back to you guys what my 99 has.

    Sent from my GTX3582R
    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    For 550-600 rwhp, a GT3582R with 0.82 T4 housing and T04S cover works. A GTX3582R has maybe 10% more top end potential and should lose very little spool. A PT 6262 should be very similar, as would an HTA 3586R. A PT 6266 would also be more than sufficient. One advantage of the smaller turbo is that you can spend more time in boost in more of your driving because the spool is a few hundred rpm faster.

    I did not change from my GT3582R until I had made 600 rwhp SAE Dynojet with it and still wanted more. I think I have more (0.95 GTX4088R), but definitely lost some response and I notice that in my daily driving. If I did not want more than 600 rwhp (I want 700 rwhp), then I would not have gotten a bigger, slower turbo.
    I agree with all the points you stated above, my main concern isn't spool and more so the power delivery. That might sound like I'm talking about one in the same, however I'm not. While I know the power can be had with a smaller unit, the extra benefit of a larger turbo is for future mods and being able to achieve this power level of pump 93 these are more so the reason I'm leaning towards it.

    I'm thinking that sacrificing a few hundred rpm would be worth it. I hope I don't regret it. I know you have the GT4088 which is similar, how do you like it compared to the 35R? Your driving impressions would be what I'd like to know more about and what do you use the car for? I was also thinking about the 6266 as I think for the price and performance it would get me where I wanna be, I just don't see enough other members with proven plots showing this obtained. It also doesn't allow me to run water lines I don't believe.
    Last edited by JuCo; 08-07-2015 at 08:05 PM.
    Mod list - M50 manifold; TechniqueTuning Stg2, Apex Arc-8, ZKW euro, clear corners Mike R diffbrace, Koni Yell with HR race
    X-brace UCC tranny mounts -BLK/with enforcers, powerflex rtabs,lcabs, AAfanclutch, mishimoto rad, UCC Ultra-cerametallic Clutch.
    You will go through days of joy and days of sadness as the pursuit for power leads to madness...

  19. #19
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    Get a Garrett GTW 6465 or 6265. I really wanted one of these before I pulled the trigger on a precision 6466. Unfortunately they were not yet on the market. $1300 for the Ball bearing version of either one. Water cooled, and Garrett reliability. Go for the 6265 claims 800 HP turbo, and get the T4 .81 if you want the spool or the .96 for the flow. Unless you have a TS or a T3 manifold. Then there are other options.

    I have heard nothing but greatness about these.
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  20. #20
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    Are you currently doing any data logging? If you are what are you using? The eboost2 is a great boost control. It offers multiple boost settings. I have a Innovate SCG-1 boost controller. It's working very well. Holds boost levels very steady. It has the added feature of data logging and a built in wideband. It's also priced less than he eboost2. I spoke with Innovate a few months ago and they informed me they are comming out with a unit that will offer all the features of the SCG-1 and it will have multiple boost settings. They didn't say when it would be released and I don't see anything on their site the last time I looked. SCG-1 also offers 2 different failsafes. 1 based on whatever AFR you choose and one based on boost level.

    Butters has a very nice setup in his car. He can give you the details. His uses the eboost2 and a separate data logger.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuCo View Post
    I'm thinking that sacrificing a few hundred rpm would be worth it. I hope I don't regret it. I know you have the GT4088 which is similar, how do you like it compared to the 35R? Your driving impressions would be what I'd like to know more about and what do you use the car for? I was also thinking about the 6266 as I think for the price and performance it would get me where I wanna be, I just don't see enough other members with proven plots showing this obtained. It also doesn't allow me to run water lines I don't believe.
    I drive this car about 6k a year on the street. No track but I do run it at the dragstrip regularly. I ran 93 pump plus a little water/meth. It has never seen race gas. With the GT35R, my best trap was 134.5. I actually have not beaten that yet with the bigger turbo but just put that on this spring.

    For a full weight pump gas car, the responsive turbos like the GT35R are a lot of fun. On the highway, I rarely bothered to downshift. With the bigger turbo, I want to downshift.

    If you were running E85 with stock CR, a bigger turbo would spool better than on pump gas with lower CR. Think about stuff like this when you consider what other turbos people run.

    I am not saying the bigger turbo is a bad choice but rather that it has trade offs to consider. I am keeping mine but will be going to a TS manifold to improve response a little.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    Garrett reliability.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    Get a Garrett GTW 6465 or 6265. I really wanted one of these before I pulled the trigger on a precision 6466. Unfortunately they were not yet on the market. $1300 for the Ball bearing version of either one. Water cooled, and Garrett reliability. Go for the 6265 claims 800 HP turbo, and get the T4 .81 if you want the spool or the .96 for the flow. Unless you have a TS or a T3 manifold. Then there are other options.

    I have heard nothing but greatness about these.
    I've heard good things also, price point is a positive. The only issue I have is that I have not seen any others with these and the guinea pig idea doesn't excite me. I have also read on the Garrett site that the housings are bigger than both the GT and GTX Garrett series, this concerns me with space limitations.
    Mod list - M50 manifold; TechniqueTuning Stg2, Apex Arc-8, ZKW euro, clear corners Mike R diffbrace, Koni Yell with HR race
    X-brace UCC tranny mounts -BLK/with enforcers, powerflex rtabs,lcabs, AAfanclutch, mishimoto rad, UCC Ultra-cerametallic Clutch.
    You will go through days of joy and days of sadness as the pursuit for power leads to madness...

  24. #24
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    96 332IS 6466 turbo
    Quote Originally Posted by JuCo View Post

    I've heard good things also, price point is a positive. The only issue I have is that I have not seen any others with these and the guinea pig idea doesn't excite me. I have also read on the Garrett site that the housings are bigger than both the GT and GTX Garrett series, this concerns me with space limitations.
    From what I was told the housings are not exactly bigger , they are longer. But it would be best to confirm that. I know if my stupid 6466 breaks , I'm going the GTW route. Either the 62 or the 64.
    1996 332IS
    Built 3.2
    CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
    Technique Tuning 80# tune.
    1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
    Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
    WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Manchvegas
    Posts
    2,307
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    Boosted M3’s
    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    From what I was told the housings are not exactly bigger , they are longer. But it would be best to confirm that. I know if my stupid 6466 breaks , I'm going the GTW route. Either the 62 or the 64.
    Really? Anyway I don't think your 6466 is going to fail on you. Solid turbo with ample amount of oil.
    1997 Cosmos E36 M3/4/5 Boost Logic GT40/94r .85 Technique Tuning
    Stock motor

    1998 Estoril E36 M3/4/c4 Steed Speed2 Gt40/94r 1.06 Technique Tuning,
    Built motor, Best ET ( 9.63 @ 142.61 mph MS100+meth ) 10/08/21
    Best mph ( 10.08 @ 144.66mph MS100+meth ) 9/18/19
    build thread:
    http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2269817-Habbit-continued-Turbo-build-V



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