Used BMW M3 Vs RSX TypeS

[antrey]

I now have two children and am in the process of selling my 1997 Miata STO. I had pretty much decided to purchase the new Acura RSX typeS but when looking at Edmund's TMV on a 95-97 used BMW M3 I was stunned to find it would be cheaper to buy the used M3 than the RSX typeS. The pros for each as I see them are: RSX-S will have better reliability, factory warranty, added utility of hatchback, lower repair costs, and better fuel economy while the M3 will have better driving dynamics (lauded by car reviewers the world over), more power, that wonderful inline 6, more room for rear seat passengers, better styling, and it has always been my dream car. The reliability issue is my main concern. I'd hate to be stuck with huge repair bills. What is your experience with M3 reliability?

[Kevlar]

Get the M3. Maintanence costs are higher, but it is a higher priced car... many more things on it. But it is worth it in everyway, no doubt.

The RSX can't even be compared in my eyes.

[Marita]

get the m3...more room for the kids...rsx has no room...trust me...rsx is really small in the back seat...

[Stockman]

I'll throw this out there:

The BMW will probably be safer.. in part because of it being a larger car.. if you go strictly by the crash ratings you will get confusing ratings.. if they had all cars in the same group the small little cars would be much worse off in crashes... a 4 star rating for a sub compact car may not be as good as a 2 or 3 star in a larger car

Another thing... If you are worried about things breaking down you can always buy an aftermarket extended warranty.. in fact I would tell you to get one definitly if you get a used M3.. not because something will break down but in the event something does break down.. like the engine or transmission.. just the bill for that would be more then the cost of the warranty

now a few small points
RSX = FWD
RSX looks like a mutated fish from the simpsons


But.. You should check out the costs for insurance before you pick the car you want.. its possible the M3 would be cheaper depending on your age.. Hondas get stolen ALOT so they have a high insurance rate


For general maintenance we, bimmerforums.com, can help you do most of that.. its really pretty easy... and you can order the parts to do it all from alloembmwparts.com or bimmerparts.com probably cheaper then the price for the honda parts

[Stylin]

All you have to do is drive both cars back to back.. then u'll make ur decision very easily.

[JimBob]

Like most ,if not all, Honda products there is more HP than Torque PLUS you have to the rev the things like you hate it to get that little bit of torque. I like the low end power of BMW, great for the hills where I live. How often do you really want to drive a car's engine above 5000rpm?

Acura 2.0L 160 hp I4 2.0L 200 hp I4
Horsepower 160 @ 6500 RPM 200 @ 7400 RPM Torque (lb-ft) 141 @ 4000 RPM 142 @ 6000 RPM

M3 - pre 2000 3.2L 240 hp I6
Horsepower 240 @ 6000 RPM
Torque (lb-ft) 236 @ 3800 RPM

[Kos-motate139]

Originally posted by antrey
...and it has always been my dream car.

That's really the point, isn't it? :

The M3 won't bite you. Get the extended warranty if you want extra security. Find a good independant mechanic you really trust and who won't bone you for repairs. Ask questions on this board. You're set!

Here's a list of repairs my M3 has required, I bought it in '99 with 30K, it's now at 87K, with probably 10 autocrosses, several long trips, and two Silver State Classic events averaging 125mph:

1. Replace Rear shocks and Rear shock mounts (broke during autocross)
2. Re-lube clutch pedal bearing
3. Replace front underbody panel
4. Replace headlight bulbs
5. Replace dash-light bulbs

But that's about it, aside from tires, oil and such.

[Dark Helmet]

hey antrey, I see you made it over. I hope we can be of some assistance.

guys, I invited this guy over from clubrsx... sounds like we might get another convert.

[neenja]

well there is no comparison between a RSX and an M3. The M3 is a bmw...its very reliable. More so than Acrua....they are just not made well...they are cheap cars.
You get what you pay for.
The M3 has SO much more power than the RSX, more room...its safer than the rsx...better quality products. ITS A BMW
Get the M3, trust me....once you go M you never go back

[antrey]

well there is no comparison between a RSX and an M3. The M3 is a bmw...its very reliable. More so than Acrua....they are just not made well...they are cheap cars. The M3 has SO much more power than the RSX, more room...its safer than the rsx...better quality products. ITS A BMW

Quality and reliability are two very different things. The cheapest civic is statistically more reliable than any BMW if you look at problems reported per 100 vehicles sold as reported by consumer reports. For example, in the 1998 issue of consumer reports I have, the acura integra is the most reliable car in the 1997 model year regardless of brand or price. Reliability tells you how likely a vehicle is to breakdown or otherwise be troublesome (abnormal noises, excessive vibration, burning oil, gears grinding when cold, etc.) quality defines how expensive and luxurious the material grades are. For example, you can build a hammer out of the most expensive crystal and call it a high quality hammer compared to a cheap steel hammer, but the reliability of the cheap steel hammer will be apparent after you die and the hammer is still pounding nails while the crystal hammer shattered on the first swing. The cheap civic cloth seats may feel like burlap but they are likely to last very long. The integra now RSX has always been amongst the most reliable vehicles in the world and statistically I would be more likely to encounter problems with admittedly higher quality M3. I acknowledge the reliability risk I am taking by considering a BMW instead of a japanese vehicle but may be willing to make this sacrifice for the much better performance, driving dynamics, and fulfillment of driving my "dream car." I'd get an extended warranty as suggested by Kos-motate139 to reduce my risk in addition to asking for service records and performing a thorough checkup.

I was disappointed in badbadm's reply. He admits he is only grudgingly replying but yet writes a huge reply riddled with negative vibes. He even suggests I may be a smarta$$ honda driver when nothing in my original posts suggests I am. I don't currently drive a honda my wife does. Metal thickness is only one of many variables controlled to provide fatigue strength. Shape and material properties are just as important as thickness. I seriously doubt that a new RSX with five star frontal, offset, and side impact ratings (objective government testing not junkyard perusal), side air bags, pretensioners, and dual stage frontal air bags would disappoint me in an accident.

I know a guy who's new RSX-S has been in the shop for almost a month because it is destroying its own 6spd gearbox. I'll bet you didn't expect to hear about THAT when discussing the perfect reliability that of every freaking honda ever made (give me a freaking break). Additionally, I rescued a colleague in college one time who's honda accord suffered a BROKEN WISHBONE while driving about 30mph in a straight line. The only excuse was that the car was high mileage. High mileage causes metal fatigued wishbones in hondas??? Dang.

I fully expected such issues. I work for an automotive OEM and know that even the most reliable car in the world will have problems, some serious others less so, especially the first year of production. I've worked on many warranty related issues during the first year of production fewer as the platform ages and bugs are worked out. The 1997 acura integra, the most reliable vehicle in the world that year, saw 3 problems per 100 vehicles. Assuming honda sold 15,000 integras (a conservative estimate) in 1997 that equals 450 individuals experiencing problems to bitch on message boards about how horribly unreliable their integras are due to grinding gears, failed transmissions, etc.

Like most ,if not all, Honda products there is more HP than Torque PLUS you have to the rev the things like you hate it to get that little bit of torque. I like the low end power of BMW, great for the hills where I live. How often do you really want to drive a car's engine above 5000rpm?

Low end torque has greatly improved thanks to i-VTEC; at least 90% of the engines peak torque is available in the very broad range from ~3000 to ~8000 rpm. You also have to take into account the shorter gearing a high reving engine can have resulting in amplified torque at the wheels and the lower weight a honda's engine has to propel. An RSX-typeS is very close in acceleration performance to a 328i even though the 328i engine has greater peak torque. Please don't take this paragraph as a defense of the RSX; just trying to point out some things you may not have considered when writing your post.

I have a miata and really appreciate it for its balanced weight distribution and rear wheel drive handling. The miata steering has been compared to that of an M3 and I always saw that as praise of the highest order. When jumping back into my miata after a base rsx test drive I was surprised at how much torque steer I had felt in the RSX. The feeling of having the drive wheels decoupled from the steering wheels feels so right compared to having one pair do everything. I also noticed that when trail braking in the base RSX on high speed sweepers, the tail felt like it would start to come around rather quickly and steering input was required to maintain my desired line. The miata when braking even harder in the same sweeper felt much more stable and balanced. The Type-S might handle better in such a situation but until I drive one in the same sweeper, I won't know for sure. Given similar suspension tuning I feel the type-S would also feel less stable.

I've rambled on long enough, but one issue I haven't mentioned that is concerning me is bent wheels. I've read several posts regarding the propensity of 17" M3 wheels to get bent when hitting potholes, etc. I live in Texas but work across the border in Mexico and ... lets just say some sections of road in Mexico feel like your travesing the lunar surface. What is your experience with this issue? I've read 16" wheels won't fit due to brake caliper interference, not to mention the handling penalty such a change would entail.

[mpbmw318is]

BMW has serious problems in shipping from the factory with problems. However, as you put, it was on primary first run e39's, which i s a world apart from what you're looking at. E36's have few problems, if any, and I am willing to wager many of the things you mention (odd noise, vibration) is no less present in the 97 integra than in an e36 BMW. However, a common BMW customer is prolly more likely to complain/register it as a problem, mainly due to demographics of the common buyer.
You have to be happy with the car, bottom line.
It sounds like you have some decent track/auto-x experince. You mentioned FWD as (it seemed) a problem. Find an M3 to drive. The handling is superb. Theres some factory dialed in understeer, but thats a saftey feature. If you're worried about room, I would recomend the sedan. I have a coupe, and its good on room, as long as you only have two people. Its just a pain to get 4 in and out with 2 doors (and no one goes in or out my door but me) For adults its a tight fit, but worlds better than an RSX, but its great for kids. My kid sister fits back there just fine.

Theres nothing at all wrong with an RSX, in fact they're kinda funky cool little cars. But you do get what you pay for, and in the end its my opnion that you'll be much happier with a ///M3.

If you can lets us know what you go with. Enjoy either way

[littleblue]

I would get the M3. Forget the RSX. It's small and it's performance is not very inspiring. If anything get a WRX before te RSX. It's bigger, and has A LOT more performance in both stock and aftermarket form. I have a WRX but want to sell it for a E36. I didn't get the M3 origonally because the car would have been driven 100 miles a day so I figured I'd go w/ a new car since I'd be racking up the miles so quick. But now, no more long drives so I'm trying to sell my WRX.

Also take into account if your gonna be driving in snow at all. WRX is all wheel drive. If not then definatly go M3.

[Rel44 M3]

Hey, Antrey, I don't know if you mentioned it, but have you test-driven the M3 yet? It would be nice if you could test drive an M3 and an RSX on the same day, and then give us your impressions.

I do agree with you on your quality vs. reliability argument. I often have this discussion with my friends. The other thing to consider too, is that the average ///M driver will be far more hard on the car than the average Honda Civic or anything driver (save perhaps for the S2000) and will probably end up breaking things more often.

As for you bent rims question, I seem to recall the number of bent rims being higher on the 95's as opposed to the 96+'s. I venture to guess that this is because of the smaller sidewall, as the 95's rode on 235/40/17's all around, versus the staggered 225/45/17 and 245/40/17 of the 96+ (gee, it seems like I said this a few minutes ago). I haven't had any problems with bent rims, and I'm going on about two years on the stock rims in Chicago area potholes.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally posted by littleblue
I would get the M3. Forget the RSX. It's small and it's performance is not very inspiring.

this is absolutely not true. the RSX (the Type-S) is a very fun little car to drive. its reflexes are quicker than the M3s and its VERY tossable and the tranny is a TON of fun. however, it is in a completely different performance league and will simply not be able to hang with the M3 in most if not all performance areas. th RSX is a great drivers car... the M3 is simply better. (and bigger, and more comfortably, and safer, and better looking...)

[jesd325is]

antrey, im in el paso also, if u like i could let u drive out my car, sure it's no ///M3 but it sure does handle and perform great. but i think in your post in the other forum you said u already drove someone elses ///m3.
i had to deal with the same questions in june, and even thogh it's no ///M i knew that one day i'd like to own a bmw. i have what i have now for insurance purposes, since i had like 3 speeding tickets a year from the EPPD when i had my stang, ever since i got the bimmer i've just had warnings
i don't have the factory rims on now, and i know the roads in ep and juarez are bad, but i never bent a factory rim for the time i had them on. as far as maintenance, sure it will be high, if u go to the dealer($75/hr labor at mack massey)but most of the stuff u may need to repair can be a diy project. the only problems i had were the radiator(an easy diy which only cost me $150. the only other problem was the fabric from my door armrest area coming off which was common around my year of production, but an easy fix at a local upholstery shop.

[///Mracer]

you can sum it allup in 2 little symbols M3. It is the only way to go and you will definitly NOT regret it.:

[Zoso]

Many people have problems with rim bending because they want to get the biggest rim possible on their cars and end up with tiny "painted on" tires that don't do much to protect the rim from potholes.

The stock 17" rims on the M3 are tough. I've had them on my car up here in Massachusetts (our roads suck) and I haven't had a problem. I'd say that bending up the stock rims with the stock size tires is really a non-issue.

As far as the car debate, I don't think it is really fair to compare an RSX to an M3. Besides the cost of a new RSX to a 4 or 5 year old M3, they have little in common. The M3 wins in safety, handling, accelleration, braking, luxury, style, solidness, and looks. BMW makes a solid car and if you have problems with the car they will typically be small annoying things... it is seldom that a large component like the transmission fails (and I hear this is a problem with the RSXs). In the years that I've had my M3, it has been a very, very reliable car. If you are worried, get one with a warranty then if anything goes wrong you can get it fixed for free.

[neenja]

Ok, some of you are posting some arguements on how reliable an acura vs. bmw...and damn what long posts....i fell alseep on one or two of them.
Frankly when you buy an M3 or any BMW you have the money to do so, or else you would not have bought it.
Therefore you must then know that it sucks gas, and be able to pay for that....and it has problems, and be able to pay for that as well.
Basically, if you have the money for an M3 you have the money for maintinence and such things.
If you don't have the money, buy something cheaper and leave it at that.
Get the M3....if you have the money
You will not regret it, the rewards outweigh the shortcomings.
I would not agree with any Acura/Honda...i used to own one, there are things with that car i never liked....clank! sound when you shut the door, quality of parts made for them, lack of any TQ, and small things that can irritate anyone.
Just my opinion

[Dark Helmet]

Originally posted by neenja
Ok, some of you are posting some arguements on how reliable an acura vs. bmw...and damn what long posts....i fell alseep on one or two of them.
Frankly when you buy an M3 or any BMW you have the money to do so, or else you would not have bought it.
Therefore you must then know that it sucks gas, and be able to pay for that....and it has problems, and be able to pay for that as well.
Basically, if you have the money for an M3 you have the money for maintinence and such things.
If you don't have the money, buy something cheaper and leave it at that.
Get the M3....if you have the money
You will not regret it, the rewards outweigh the shortcomings.
I would not agree with any Acura/Honda...i used to own one, there are things with that car i never liked....clank! sound when you shut the door, quality of parts made for them, lack of any TQ, and small things that can irritate anyone.
Just my opinion

again, these are all things that have to do with the "quality of the engineering" and the "Quality of the Materials" and nothing to do with how well they are screwed together. the E36 is hardly a pinnacle of interior refinement either... the interior on my '92 integra had the materials of equal quality.

Quality does not equal reliability... this is what Antrey is getting at, and he's dead right. no one wants to spend money on maintenance, and any assertion that the M3 is somehow more reliable than the RSX implies that the maintenance on the M3 will cost less than the maintenance on the RSX... this is simply not true, even by your own admission.

reliability just means that it keeps running without any help from you or anyone else. hondas excell in this function.

the Lack of Torque is also not as much of a problem as many suspect... the fact that its got like 4.40 gears is pretty helpful!

I still think the M3 is the best choice. the (admittedly abused) RSX loaner (base auto) I drove for my father-in-law was a total buzz-kill and felt EXTREMELY crappy after havign the Z3 for a few days.

[DOO]

RSX is a girl's car. BMW is a man's car...any questions?

[Stylin]

Originally posted by //Masterpiece
RSX is a girl's car. BMW is a man's car...any questions?

But I just love a hottie in a Z3..

[Dark Helmet]

Originally posted by Stylin


But I just love a hottie in a Z3..

damnit, did my wife take the car out last night???