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Thread: Laminar's M3 5.0 swap: Fünf-Null

  1. #301
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    Drove it back to work after lunch. Let autotune do its thing. I'm so not used to it pulling past 4000, it's a fun feeling. I may have a slight exhaust leak on one bank, one O2 sensor is consistently reading higher than the other. I topped off and burped the coolant and reinstalled the plastic bit that bridges the gap between the grill and radiator, and it stayed below 203 or so today. Of course, it's about 10-20 degrees cooler outside as well, so that could be the entire difference, too.

  2. #302
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    1997 M3 / 5.3
    What success you have! Lot of blood and sweat invested...my hat is off to you with all the DIY work. :-)

  3. #303
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    Threw the headlights back in so it wouldn't attract quite so much attention. Resonators come today, I'll probably pull the exhaust and check for leaks sometime this weekend.


  4. #304
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    Started making the shroud for the puller fans.






  5. #305
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    Maybe I missed this somewhere, but why two small fans vs. one large one?
    Nate J.

    (oOO\ (|||)º(|||) /OOo)
    Titanium Silver/Black Nappa Full 07-18-2001 E39 M5 Heritage (BZ99672). 198,000mi+. Increasing daily. Engine rebuild thread.
    (eŌō\ (||||)º(||||) / ōŌe)
    Alpineweiss III/Black Merino Full 03-26-2007 E60 M5 Manual (CX08265). 157,000+. Dead starter -_-

    RIP, Seabiscuit. Black Sapphire/Schwarz 03-11-2003 530iA Sport (CK39185). T-boned 03-01-2017 at 155,861mi.
    Take 2 "Otto" - Toledo Blue/Sandbeige 04-25-2002 530iA Sport (CH98032). Sold 11-10-2017 at 147,743mi.
    Take 3 "Manuel" - Toledo Blue/Grau 10-29-2001 530i5 Sport (CE92358). Sold 02-01-2019 at 217,600mi. I regret that. Build Log
    Reliable P.O.S. - Green/gray 1995 Camry V6 LE. 270k mi. Sold for space.

  6. #306
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    Wow, I'm quite jealous of your fabrication abilities. Seems like you're capable of damn near anything. My hat is off to you sir, very nice job, and go do some racing!

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by computiNATEor View Post
    Maybe I missed this somewhere, but why two small fans vs. one large one?
    I tried making a large fan fit but the center of the electric fan wanted to be right where the water pump pulley is. I wanted to switch to pullers to expose the front of the radiator to the incoming air instead of blocking it by a shroud. So going with two fans lets me stagger them side to side and clear the water pump pulley. Really, because my radiator area is nearly a square (18.5" x 18") a single large fan is ideal and a pair of smaller fans isn't, but this is what fits. If this really doesn't keep it cool, I'll have to look for a slim aftermarket 16" or 18" fan and build a slim shroud to make it fit. Something like this is already 4" thick at the middle, and if I try and add a shroud at all, it's getting pushed too close to the engine. The radiator is already as far forward as it can go, sitting right behind the bumper mounts.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by 95maxrider View Post
    My hat is off to you sir, very nice job, and go do some racing!
    EVO school at the end of this month. Have to get it dialed in and not overheating by then!

  8. #308
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    Shroud is cut and bent up, test fit looks good.



    Clearance looks tight but should be okay once fixed in place.


  9. #309
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    Looks good! Maybe some small aero slats that open at speed would be good for airflow in the areas not covered by the fans?
    Nate J.

    (oOO\ (|||)º(|||) /OOo)
    Titanium Silver/Black Nappa Full 07-18-2001 E39 M5 Heritage (BZ99672). 198,000mi+. Increasing daily. Engine rebuild thread.
    (eŌō\ (||||)º(||||) / ōŌe)
    Alpineweiss III/Black Merino Full 03-26-2007 E60 M5 Manual (CX08265). 157,000+. Dead starter -_-

    RIP, Seabiscuit. Black Sapphire/Schwarz 03-11-2003 530iA Sport (CK39185). T-boned 03-01-2017 at 155,861mi.
    Take 2 "Otto" - Toledo Blue/Sandbeige 04-25-2002 530iA Sport (CH98032). Sold 11-10-2017 at 147,743mi.
    Take 3 "Manuel" - Toledo Blue/Grau 10-29-2001 530i5 Sport (CE92358). Sold 02-01-2019 at 217,600mi. I regret that. Build Log
    Reliable P.O.S. - Green/gray 1995 Camry V6 LE. 270k mi. Sold for space.

  10. #310
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    Yes! I just picked up some innertube to make some rubber flap that will do just that.

  11. #311
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    Way ahead of me, nice
    Nate J.

    (oOO\ (|||)º(|||) /OOo)
    Titanium Silver/Black Nappa Full 07-18-2001 E39 M5 Heritage (BZ99672). 198,000mi+. Increasing daily. Engine rebuild thread.
    (eŌō\ (||||)º(||||) / ōŌe)
    Alpineweiss III/Black Merino Full 03-26-2007 E60 M5 Manual (CX08265). 157,000+. Dead starter -_-

    RIP, Seabiscuit. Black Sapphire/Schwarz 03-11-2003 530iA Sport (CK39185). T-boned 03-01-2017 at 155,861mi.
    Take 2 "Otto" - Toledo Blue/Sandbeige 04-25-2002 530iA Sport (CH98032). Sold 11-10-2017 at 147,743mi.
    Take 3 "Manuel" - Toledo Blue/Grau 10-29-2001 530i5 Sport (CE92358). Sold 02-01-2019 at 217,600mi. I regret that. Build Log
    Reliable P.O.S. - Green/gray 1995 Camry V6 LE. 270k mi. Sold for space.

  12. #312
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    Hot and sweaty weekend in the garage, but I'm getting closer. I finished up the shroud, complete with speed flaps to let air through at speed.





    I installed it and found that clearance was not good. The fans were either touching or dangerously close to touching the accessories. So I did some hacking and slashing and moved the radiator forward about an inch. Clearance was much better after that.





    Then I made a new shift lever for the eBay short shifter. Effort was bit high and I felt like I had to reach too far forward to grab the shift knob. This one may actually be too long, but effort is great and ergonomically it sits in a really good spot for fast steering-wheel-to-shifter movements, which is what I was going for. I may shorten it a bit still, but I like it better now.



    I took it out for a test drive with the new fan setup and shifter and at some point got a good backfire out the exhaust. The rev limiter cuts fuel and/or spark, and at some point I hit redline, it cut spark, dumped some fuel in the exhaust, and gave me a good pop. When I got home I found that it had blown one of the tip caps right out D: . Also, the car liked to sit around 210-215, which is hotter than it used to be. There's still air in the system somewhere, so I ordered an inline coolant temp sensor adapter to put in the upper radiator hose that will allow me to fill from the highest point of the system. I'll jack the front end of the car way up and fill that way, hopefully that gets the last of the bubbles out and the temps can come down.

    Also I knew the exhaust was a bit leaky, I can hear it echoing off of the curb as I drive. So I lifted the car up and took a look. I found about 10 pinholes in the header-back section, and half of the header slip joints were leaky. So I pulled the whole header-back section off, and pulled the collectors off of the top half of the header. I'll weld up the pinholes and try some copper RTV on the slip joints, various internet people said that was my best bet short of welding them solid.





    I picked up oil and a filter today to do a change this week, EVO school comes on Saturday. Still plenty to do before then!

  13. #313
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    The copper RTV should hold up well. I’ve seen it used for header gaskets on turbo cars.
    Nate J.

    (oOO\ (|||)º(|||) /OOo)
    Titanium Silver/Black Nappa Full 07-18-2001 E39 M5 Heritage (BZ99672). 198,000mi+. Increasing daily. Engine rebuild thread.
    (eŌō\ (||||)º(||||) / ōŌe)
    Alpineweiss III/Black Merino Full 03-26-2007 E60 M5 Manual (CX08265). 157,000+. Dead starter -_-

    RIP, Seabiscuit. Black Sapphire/Schwarz 03-11-2003 530iA Sport (CK39185). T-boned 03-01-2017 at 155,861mi.
    Take 2 "Otto" - Toledo Blue/Sandbeige 04-25-2002 530iA Sport (CH98032). Sold 11-10-2017 at 147,743mi.
    Take 3 "Manuel" - Toledo Blue/Grau 10-29-2001 530i5 Sport (CE92358). Sold 02-01-2019 at 217,600mi. I regret that. Build Log
    Reliable P.O.S. - Green/gray 1995 Camry V6 LE. 270k mi. Sold for space.

  14. #314
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    Got the exhaust pinholes welded up last night, reinstalled the lower halves of the collectors with plenty of hi temp RTV goop. No pics of that, my hands and arms were covered in RTV. Full exhaust is reinstalled.

    I also took a look at the E34 steering coupler I bought to replace the E46 guibo-based coupler I've been using with the E46 steering shaft. Turns out the E34 coupler is a bit wider on both ends, which means it will probably hit the header, Plus both ends are splined, which means it won't work with the E46 shaft which is kind of a double-d shape.





    Coolant system parts are arriving today and tomorrow, I picked up an expansion tank from an Audi at the part store yesterday that I'll try and install somehow. Need to do a test run flat towing the M3 behind the wife's car to make sure this will work for Friday.

  15. #315
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    Where are you getting your water temperature from? I installed a temporary gauge and getting the reading from the thermostat housing. My temps stay at about 185-195 even during rush hour traffic in 95° weather

  16. #316
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    Stock coolant temp sender on the heater hose fitting. It generally sat on the thermostat on the highway. Autocrossing would bump it above 200 and the fan would bring it back down to 190. I still have a lot of air in the system, after driving for a while and parking, the upper radiator hose is firm with pressure but squishy with air. I ordered an inline coolant temp adapter to put in the upper hose so that I can bleed the air out of it as I fill. And the expansion tank will go in the rear of the engine bay on the passenger side, higher than the radiator and hoses. So I can fill through that tank and let everything bleed.

  17. #317
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    This came today so I went ahead and threw it in, I was actually able to top off the coolant. I'll run it for a couple of cycles and see how it goes - I'm going to hold off on installing the expansion tank until I see that this still isn't good enough.

    I adjusted the coilover height, changed the oil and filter, and dropped it back down on the ground. I need to shake it down still but rain is hindering that. Hopefully I get a chance to thrash at least a little bit before I drag it two hours to Evo school.

  18. #318
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    In preparation for this weekend, I hooked up the flat tow bar and took the rig for a test drive. I installed the brackets on the front of the BMW about 2 years ago and haven't had the car break since, so I've never actually used them. But since we're making a family trip out of the Evo school this weekend, we'll drag the car along and wifey can haul the kids around while I go race. I drove out the original bumper-mount studs and I'm using 5/16" grade 8 hardware with flange lock nuts. I also made a little brace plate for the driver's side out of 1/4" steel to assume the function of the cast aluminum piece on the passenger side behind the stock tow hook.





    I did another test drive with the upper hose bled and the car still sat at ~210. And with the fans going at idle, it wouldn't drop below 205. So expansion tank it is! When I first built the car, I used the stock BMW radiator and expansion tank, because the stock radiator had no cap - that was on the tank itself. I plumbed the BMW expansion tank into the heater return hose, and that worked well for me. Until I hit a berm rallycrossing and pushed that hose into the water pump pulley, which sawed right through it. You can see the piece of copper pipe I literally found on the ground to re-seal the coolant hose and allow me to drive the two hours home.





    This is essentially the same scenario, but I hit the heater hose in the back instead of the front.

    The first iteration of the hookup required a loop and a rise that basically defeated the entire purpose of the expansion tank. The stock Explorer lines both shoot up 90 degrees at the back of the engine, since the Explorer's cab sits higher than the engine.



    So I pulled out the sawzall and hacked off the upturn. It's a cleaner install and should do okay, despite the billion hose clamps I had to throw in for the 3/4" to 5/8" reducer and 5/8" tee. I actually found a tee at O'Reilly's that has 5/8" and 3/4" ends after I finished up last night that I need to grab today, so if I redo the hoses I can eliminate a few connections.





    It was late when I finished up so I haven't run it yet, we'll see how it goes.
    Last edited by Laminar; 06-22-2018 at 10:44 AM.

  19. #319
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    Big weekend. Took the car out Friday afternoon and it seems to cool okay. The fans were a bit slow to cool the car down, but the temps would drop to 190 or so once the car was moving so I figured it was good to go for the weekend.

    Hooked it up and took off for the 140 mile trip.





    Up early Saturday morning, headed out to site to start Evo school. I ran the snow tires on the car for towing, trying to minimize traction so the M3 didn't throw the tow vehicle around. Once I got to site I threw the Hoosiers on.



    The instructors had set up a course consisting of a slalom, a carousel, a sweeper, a Chicago box, and a couple of s-curves into the finish - some basic autocross elements nicely linked together. My first runs were in the low 29/high 28 second range. Then we spent some time with an instructor working on car placement, getting tight on the cones, and setting a good line. My best time of the morning was a 27.7. Already big gains!

    Also big gains in engine temperature - after a few quick consecutive runs, engine temps touched 230, the Audi expansion tank overflow popped and I puked some coolant in the staging lane. I took off to drive up and down the road a bit to get some airflow into the engine bay and cool the thing off. After a couple of miles I went to turn around and...suddenly lost all steering. Luckily I was at low speed so I coasted into the ditch a bit where I wouldn't totally be blocking traffic?



    So the steering coupler that I'd pulled on and off a few times to get the driver's side header in place had been turned around 180 degrees and so it wasn't properly retaining the steering shaft and after a few runs, managed to come loose and eventually pop out. That was my fault. And now I was several miles from site with no tools and no phone numbers for anyone at the school. So I called my wife.

    I'd loaded the tow bar back into her car just in case, luckily she was only about 12 minutes away...



    I dragged the car back to site, jacked it up, rotated the joint around, popped the shaft back in, made sure it was retained properly this time, and it was good to go.



    I was more careful about not letting the car get too hot the rest of the day, I had to take a couple of breaks as temps crept past 220 and let them get down to 215 or so before going again.

    Even through all of that, I managed to lay down a 26.9 on my very last run of the day with the engine pushing 218 degrees, tire pressures unknown, coilovers untouched from the Z3 coupe they were pulled from, and the blinker falling off from hitting too many cones.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bkc6Zt8lJ9J/

    After that, I took it back to the pits and let it idle with the fans on full blast and hood up. It wouldn't drop below 215 degrees. So I let it cool for the rest of the day and then drove back to the hotel. Once on the road, temps dropped to ~190.

    The next day after some time at the waterpark, we hooked up and headed home.



    We hit some torrential rain coming back into town, but made it home just fine.



    So here's what needs the most attention right now:

    - Brakes: They were mushy. My rotors/pads may be glazed from when I had a stuck caliper at last year's Starting Line school. Those need some attention, and I should probably build a heatshield to protect the brake lines from the new header. They're about an inch away and even with the coating and wrap, they're putting off a lot of heat that the brake fluid doesn't need.

    - Engine bay heat: I need to release heat from the engine bay - I know the headers are adding more heat to the engine bay that needs a way out. I'm looking at vents above the headers/near the rear, and also something right behind the radiator to give the air flowing through it somewhere to go.

    - Seats: The stock luxury package seats are 80lbs each and I think my driver's seat is broken, just this year it started leaning to the right. Seats would be an easy way to save ~100lbs.

    - Overheating: The Big One. My current theory based mostly on Googling is that combustion gasses are mixing with the coolant system through either the block, heads, or head gasket. The car heats up way too fast - from cold, it takes a four block drive for coolant temps to top 190. If combustion gasses are introducing air and a ton of extra heat directly into the coolant system that would decrease cooling system effectiveness. The car smokes a bit, and it's a whitish smoke, but it could be oil or water. Not sure, I haven't driven it enough to see what's being consumed. My water pump, thermostat, radiator, fans, hoses, etc. are all new and known good. I did a full system flush last year (backflushed via garden hose through the heater hose, ran the Preston chemical flush with water for a bunch of miles, then backflushed again and refilled with coolant) and since then coolant has stayed green and stopped coming out all rusty. The engine had no problem cooling with the old setup - it'd get up to ~203 after an autocross run and after a minute or two in the pits, the fan would have it back down to 190. It would sit at ~175 on the highway with a 180 degree thermostat installed, telling me that the thermostat didn't even need to be full open to cool the car effectively.

    The heads were used on Craigslist and I didn't have them checked out before installing, just threw in new valve guide seals, springs, and retainers. I used a 1262 intake gasket set and trimmed the extra bolt hole in the coolant passage as directed. The head gaskets are Fel-Pro 1011-2 and I confirmed that the square corner is visible on the front of the engine, so they were installed correctly with coolant passages in the rear. The Explorer lower was cleaned, ported, and coated by tmoss. The thermostat was a 180 degree parts store cheapo, but I just changed it out last week for a "premium" thermostat, installed with the bleed hole at the top.

    I intended to do a compression check on Thursday night when I changed out the plugs but the wide header bolt pattern made installing the compression gauge difficult and time was limited so I gave up and just threw new plugs in. I'll have to pull out the leakdown tester and see what I find.

    Never a dull moment.
    Last edited by Laminar; 06-25-2018 at 11:34 AM.

  20. #320
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    Pulled the plugs for a leakdown check last night.







    The ground electrodes on 2 and 8 were definitely white. The center electrodes had some variance, nothing too obvious.



    Leakdown check all looked good - all cylinders were within 10% of each other and pumping the pressure way up on each cylinder didn't reveal any leaks into nearby cylinders or into the cooling system. I'll have to grab a cooling system pressurizer and pump it up to see if I can push water somewhere it shouldn't be. If that fails to tell me anything valid, I'll start pulling parts off one by one to see if anything obvious shows up. If I still can't see anything, I'll probably send the heads out to get checked over.

  21. #321
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    Sorry to hear about your cooling system troubles, I've been there! The only way I was able to burp ALL of the air pockets out of my S52 was to get the car on ramps and rev it to 4000 RPM and hold it there. 2000 RPM just wasn't enough, as I still consistently had air pockets. I doubt the 5.0 is as difficult to bleed, but hey, who knows.

    Regarding the solid E34 steering coupler, I looked into it myself at one point, interested in getting rid of any slop in the wheel. I had a long talk with the guy who runs rackdoctor.net (who owns two Z3s) and he strongly recommended we not use the solid E34 coupler with E36/Z3 racks. He said it would put too much stress on upper shaft seal on the steering rack, and will eventually cause failure.

  22. #322
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    Pumped up the cooling system to 20psi last night. Had a few drippy hose clamps that I tightened. The system dropped about 2psi all night, no water at all in the cylinders, just a few drips from my billion hose clamp connections.



    No smoking gun so far. Next step will be to pull the intakes and water pump and start looking for bad gaskets or other obstructions.

  23. #323
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    Intake gaskets looked fine.



    So I kept going.





    Head gaskets looked good, were definitely installed correctly. No obvious visual damage to the heads, no obvious piston/combustion chamber variation.

    I'm going to drop the heads off at the machine shop today to get them checked out for cracks/pinholes/flatness. Possibly replace valve guides, I think a couple were a bit sketchy when I was slamming everything together.

    The coolant came out looking reeeally clean, except for some brown sludge in the thermostat neck/bypass hose area. Everything else was pure bright green.

  24. #324
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    These issues are the worst - so much effort expended - you make me tired looking at the images - impressive!

    Although I would never partake, the shot of your car in the dirt turn is very cool!

  25. #325
    Join Date
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    01 M5 TiAg/M1SW
    I know how you feel. I just yanked the transmission back out of my 530i after changing the clutch just 1300 miles ago.
    Nate J.

    (oOO\ (|||)º(|||) /OOo)
    Titanium Silver/Black Nappa Full 07-18-2001 E39 M5 Heritage (BZ99672). 198,000mi+. Increasing daily. Engine rebuild thread.
    (eŌō\ (||||)º(||||) / ōŌe)
    Alpineweiss III/Black Merino Full 03-26-2007 E60 M5 Manual (CX08265). 157,000+. Dead starter -_-

    RIP, Seabiscuit. Black Sapphire/Schwarz 03-11-2003 530iA Sport (CK39185). T-boned 03-01-2017 at 155,861mi.
    Take 2 "Otto" - Toledo Blue/Sandbeige 04-25-2002 530iA Sport (CH98032). Sold 11-10-2017 at 147,743mi.
    Take 3 "Manuel" - Toledo Blue/Grau 10-29-2001 530i5 Sport (CE92358). Sold 02-01-2019 at 217,600mi. I regret that. Build Log
    Reliable P.O.S. - Green/gray 1995 Camry V6 LE. 270k mi. Sold for space.

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