Possible M62TU success w oil flush vs startup rattle

[geargrinder]

This is an update to a previous thread really, but, at end of 2014 i did a multi stage oil flush as an exploration of how that might help occassional startup rattle. The recap is i had a very light rattle only when the car had been parked for some time, few days at least most times, not bad actually but still irritating to somebody who cant tolerate odd car noises. Based on other stories i'd seen and some theories about the various engine oil check valves and passages in the VANOS getting sticky, i wanted to try an oil flush routine and see if reducing varnish had any impact.

The process i followed was...

• Marvel Mystery Oil tossed into old oil for 300 mis or so
• LubroMoly flush run at idle for 20mins before draining
• Fresh Pennzoil 5W20 conventional (famed high detergent high quality oil) w new filter run for 3k mis driving "sensibly"
• Fresh load of Rotella T6 5W40 w filter

I have put over 4k on the car since, and great result is no more startup rattle. It pretty much went away during the Pennzoil run but maybe the thin oil would tend to leak down out of VANOS and tensioner a little faster...

Here's the photo evidence from oil fill pix for what thats worth... Amazingly but consistent w BITOG reports & PZ fanboi advice, the Pennzoil was the most dramatic change.

Before... dirty oil but not real varnished





After few 100mis of Marvel - slight varnish cleanup





After Lubro flush - further cleanup





After 3k miles of Pennzoil 5W20

[AK_5eries]

Looks pretty good and thanks for sharing.


So is that caramel discoloration of the interior engine bad? I thought that was just a side effect of synthetic oils?

[geargrinder]

So is that caramel discoloration of the interior engine bad? I thought that was just a side effect of synthetic oils?

Yeah its totally normal "varnish" and generally not a big deal. I would not worry about the varnish - does not look bad at all for a 85k mile motor - except that a few others had been having luck w flushing & rattle. The logic / theory would be that there are 2 check valves in each bank that are supposed to keep oil in the head, as well as hydraulic lifters and hydraulic chain tensioner, as well as valves and passages in the VANOS and maybe those items are gummed up by varnish, and so making oil leak down more than it should during shutdowns and cause excessive clearances someplace for a few seconds until oil pressure builds.

[philly98540]

Looks great GG. Some good proof that doing the proper "flushes" can help alleviate the dreaded start up rattle on the vanos motors. Getting to those check valves would require a major, if not total, engine tear down, so this looks like a prudent step for anyone with this issue.

[geargrinder]

Yeah the 2 valves behind the solenoids are easy to change (and i have...) but the ones in the block... Nightmare. One can wonder if those leakin down contribute to tiny incremental wear which accelerates guide wear. And if keeping that from happening will help.

[lesguy]

Good thread, but from a purely scientific and engineering aspect, I'm not certain there is enough evidence to truly conclude..anything here.

[geargrinder]

c'mon bro. "scientific and engineering"? how many times did I go out of my way to use words like 'theory' ? just giving it a try based on other good reports and reporting a success. don't break my balls here just trying to show some experimentation results.

[lesguy]

I wasn't. I stated "good thread". Your post is appreciated. And agreed that it's purely theory. Admittedly I'm a bit skeptical whenever any type of product has "mystery" in it's name. But that's not to say the product doesnt work as claimed.

that said, my theory is that the same after results (assuming that the color change actually correlates to noise/rattle sounds) could be obtained by a simple oil change to an oil with a lighter weight/color and letting the engine run post oil change for several minutes to circulate the light oil before too many heat/cool cycles naturally darkens the oil

[geargrinder]

BTW the evidence isn't the photos. Those are just thread decor really. The evidence so far is the observed results, not the pix which are indeed meaningless. But posts w/o pix are boring...

What i would intend to accomplish is get a few others w light startup rattle and no other valve train issues to try the same thing and see if we can start to have some more confidence.

[Ed CT]

Thinking about trying this - got a short (.5 sec), sharp rattle at start-up that developed recently. I'll need to have someone else start the engine while I listen under the hood to locate the area of the rattle.

GG - What was your LubroMoly process? All LubroMoly? Mixed with current oil? What LM product? Thanks

[lesguy]

I have the short start up rattle that seems to come and go. It's so quick I can barely hear it most times. Seems if the temps are in the 50's and above and I've run the car to full operating temp and not let the car sit for more than say, two hours? No start up rattle.

Temps below 40 and the car has sat overnight? quick brief startup rattle almost every time. New VCG, guides recently inspected to be fine, and no oil leaks. Otherhwise the engine idles and runs just fine. I recall similar behavior on my old E36 M3 and theory was it was the second or two it took the oil to circulate up through the hydraulic lifters. I just kinda got used to it then as well.

[Flounderasu]

Hey Ed - did you swap out just the spring on your tensioner yet? At least the i6 guys have this ability - for $5 worth it.

GG - incrementally speaking, after each step was rattle reduced/eliminated? I'm tempted to do this as I have an OC coming up but thinking about going straight to the penzoil step and skipping the mystery & motul steps...

- - - Updated - - -

I have the short start up rattle that seems to come and go. It's so quick I can barely hear it most times. Seems if the temps are in the 50's and above and I've run the car to full operating temp and not let the car sit for more than say, two hours? No start up rattle.

Temps below 40 and the car has sat overnight? quick brief startup rattle almost every time. New VCG, guides recently inspected to be fine, and no oil leaks. Otherhwise the engine idles and runs just fine. I recall similar behavior on my old E36 M3 and theory was it was the second or two it took the oil to circulate up through the hydraulic lifters. I just kinda got used to it then as well.

Kinda the whole point of what he is trying to do - eliminate/reduce the oil drainback to eliminate the intermittent startup rattle that we have even after changing out the tensioner.

[agentrnge]

I had similar luck with reducing my start up rattle with a seafoam treatment. I changed the tensioner first a year earlier, and that helped a decent amount. Then 2/5th a bottle of Seafoam in the crank case for ~35 miles before an oil change helped a little more. Varnishing was reduced as well. no pics for proof though. D'oh.

Geargrinder: Have you noticed any improvement in hot idle vanos noise? Mine seemed to be better for ~3000 miles, now back to normal.

[geargrinder]

I wasn't. I stated "good thread". Your post is appreciated. And agreed that it's purely theory. Admittedly I'm a bit skeptical whenever any type of product has "mystery" in it's name. But that's not to say the product doesnt work as claimed.

that said, my theory is that the same after results (assuming that the color change actually correlates to noise/rattle sounds) could be obtained by a simple oil change to an oil with a lighter weight/color and letting the engine run post oil change for several minutes to circulate the light oil before too many heat/cool cycles naturally darkens the oil

just a tip. Don't keep re-editing your post and adding and changing it over and over. Makes it hard to have a convo when you keep changing it. A little typo fix is one thing but adding and changing whole paragraphs is hard to keep up with. Let's respond to the various changes you've made.

1. Yeah relax, I'm not promoting MMO. ITs mainly just stoddard solvent. Just tossed it in for a rinse effect because I have some lying around. It's a product from like 1927 or whatever. They used to name stuff goofy names back in the day. Whatever. It is the least important part of the process.

2. Oil color change is Not the point at all. Zero zero zero. Point entirely missed. It's the semi-hard varnish on the surfaces we are trying to be looking at and even then I admit the oil fill peek is not really deterministic it's just for eyeball fun. Oil color = zero.zero the point. If you don't know what varnish is you are missing the point.

GG - What was your LubroMoly process? All LubroMoly? Mixed with current oil? What LM product? Thanks

lubro/liqui moly engine flush. Usually it's 1 can for a car but our sumps are so big you need 2 cans (or 1.5 cans). Follow the instructo but it's basically pour in, idle car for 10-2mins then dump the oil and change.

- thinking about going straight to the penzoil step and skipping the mystery & motul steps...

Yeah for sure the MMO is the unimportant part. I think the Lubro/Liqui works. Expensive though.

I had similar luck with reducing my start up rattle with a seafoam treatment. I changed the tensioner first a year earlier, and that helped a decent amount. Then 2/5th a bottle of Seafoam in the crank case for ~35 miles before an oil change helped a little more. Varnishing was reduced as well. no pics for proof though. D'oh.

Geargrinder: Have you noticed any improvement in hot idle vanos noise? Mine seemed to be better for ~3000 miles, now back to normal.

For sure incrementally. But I will say the real improvement results came progressively while the PZ was in. That stuff is mojo I have to say.

[Ed CT]

Hey Ed - did you swap out just the spring on your tensioner yet? At least the i6 guys have this ability - for $5 worth it. .

Flounderasu:
Are you talking about the T-Chain spring here? http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...nsioner+Spring

Thanks for the suggestion.

[lesguy]

"Oil color change is Not the point at all. Zero zero zero. Point entirely missed. It's the semi-hard varnish on the surfaces we are trying to be looking at and even then I admit the oil fill peek is not really deterministic it's just for eyeball fun. Oil color = zero.zero the point. If you don't know what varnish is you are missing the point"


Varnish generally is cosmetic and harmless. It's part of the natural aging process within an engine. I'm fairly certain there is zero correlation to varnish shown in any of your pics to lifter rattle at startup. There simply aren't any facts to bear that out.

[philly98540]

Really still going?

I think the point is that, the visible varnish removal may lend an indication that the varnish on the suspect check valves was removed and thus making them work better. No actual proof, but some correlation may be there. The fact remains that the rattle has gone bye-bye after this flush job.

[lesguy]

certainly can't argue with results! :-)

[keeslinger31]

Mine has no varnish at 123k and still rattles
Its not a very loud rattle though

[geargrinder]

Varnish generally is cosmetic and harmless. It's part of the natural aging process within an engine. I'm fairly certain there is zero correlation to varnish shown in any of your pics to lifter rattle at startup. There simply aren't any facts to bear that out.

Thanks for confirming you don't get the point. We are all clear now.

[extra]

mine rattles every other startup when it sits overnight, and I've got the vanos rattle aswell. I'm starting to notice that if I stomp on it in first from 2k rpm up, it doesn't have the kick it used to. I wonder if it could be spark plugs or vanos or what.

[Flounderasu]

Flounderasu:
Are you talking about the T-Chain spring here? http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...nsioner+Spring
Thanks for the suggestion.

That's the one. Seems like it's not sold separately for the 8's but it is for the 6's and for $5-10 worth a change.

Swapping out the tired tensioner (or spring) seems to reduced the majority of startup rattle and this thread is basically trying to get rid of the occasional one that we're all facing - from GG's discovery of the check valves, passages, and such. He had another thread on how he found them and the lightbulb moment....

[geargrinder]

Mine has no varnish at 123k and still rattles
Its not a very loud rattle though

startup or on-going? This theory wouldn't address running-rattle so
much as that's going to be VANOS seals or guides. And really - I thought I made it clear - my pix show very little varnish in the first place. It's just trying to look at the little reduction there to guess about how some worse spots might be doing. For the 72nd time - I am not saying the pix illustrate a varnish problem (...not aimed at you Kees)

But theoretically my idea is the in-head check valves will be in much worse place since the shutdown heat soak temps will be much higher maybe?

[Mannyf540]

Great work GG, I remember when Jim first showed the location of these check valves, and considered doing what you just did.

I chose Rislone, next time around I'll use Liquimoly, I've been running Pennzoil Ultra Platinum (Euro Formula ) and my start up rattle has been to a minimum. I still have running vanos rattle though, but that's a different issue.

[Ed CT]

That's the one. Seems like it's not sold separately for the 8's but it is for the 6's and for $5-10 worth a change.

Swapping out the tired tensioner (or spring) seems to reduced the majority of startup rattle and this thread is basically trying to get rid of the occasional one that we're all facing - from GG's discovery of the check valves, passages, and such. He had another thread on how he found them and the lightbulb moment....

Thank you F & GG. I'll put this on my list of things to do. Very surprised that I did not see anything about this over on the other board during the last 10+ years - guess I shoulda swithed to BF sooner!