Francois' long term v8 project (PIC HEAVY)

[ButteDorFrank]

Edit: my personal opinion; is if you want a small car with a Chevy V8, use a Vega

in my opinion, that is an ugly car, I chose the e21 cause i love how it looks... I don't like American vehicles.

...
the crap i see every time i come and see someone doing something that isn't a 4 cylinder is just annoying!

i have a factory 323 and i wouldn't have it any other way, unless the 4 was an M42 or something i wouldn't be interested, not that MY own PERSONAL car choice should be brought into someone elses project thread

just give it a rest!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbYv1vldgvs
http://www.driftworks.com/forum/drif...now-video.html

I fcking love that green e21, never saw the build thread tho thanks ! ... it is something very similiar that I want to do with mine.
everyone that does own a 323 or a m20 swapped e21 would not have it any other way, i've never seen someone regret doing that swap, or talk bad about it or wish they still had the 4 cylinder.

I understand your frustration, it seems it's only a few select people that are in their own little world that keeps making these comments, like if they are angry with people thinking outside the box, or willing to do something ''out of the ordinary" ... everyone has an opinion and everyone online thinks they know everything, yet, alot of these bigger engine swaps have been done again and again with lots of success ... seems that these naysayers don't watch much online videos.

seriously, I find people that come into public forums and make statements like this narrow minded and annoying.

that's actually very funny coming from you, giving that most of your comments are narrow minded and annoying ... knowledgeable but annoying, just like a skipping discovery channel disc.

Here's another weight debate fun to read:
http://www.rx7club.com/other-engine-...eight-1063061/

[Tom D]

Here's another weight debate fun to read:

don't see the relation. in the link posted all the cars were able to get the weight more or less balanced by moving weight around and eliminating heavy components like power steering. you won't have this luxury and the only heavy item you can move is the battery.

the advantage of using a compact V8 like the lq4 is that it's probably not much longer then the M10 that's coming out, unlike a six pot that sticks past the axle and affects the front end inertia. if I was to go about this swap I would be taking a page from hrx's suggestion of pushing the engine 10-12 inches back, or ski's suggestion of putting it in the back seat. you made a comment that the mid-engine car didn't handle well going down a straight line. well I guarantee that it handles better then if he had put it in the engine compartment.

so you don't think that your narrow minded comment fell on deaf ears. some of my views are narrow minded and others are based on years and years of experience. I am a racer at heart and have been hanging around tracks and race shops for the past 45 years so when I see cars that are dynamically engaging dropped and tucked into static pieces of 'art' that looks like every other dropped and tucked car out there, I get irritated. is this narrow minded, perhaps. besides, I live on the monterey peninsula, where some of the greatest car shows in the world take place. so forgive me, but I see no 'art' in a e21/e30/mk1/mk2/civic sitting in the weeds with skinny tires stretched over 10" rims.

[HipMF]

M60 swaps are quite the rage for the E30 crowd.

my personal opinion; is if you want a small car with a Chevy V8, use a Vega

I was going to say that the vega isn't yer-ho enough, but....

I don't like American vehicles.

... the OP beat me to it.

The impasse here appears to be that the OP is more concerned with building a kick-ass awesome car that will light the tires at 80 mph, whereas the seasoned e21 aficionados seem to agree that such a car will be horribly unbalanced and does not capitalize on the cars strengths. Or if you really want to boil it down: fashion vs function.

- - - Updated - - -

fashion: A popular trend, especially in styles of dress and ornament or manners of behavior

"styles of dress": the car looks cool

"ornament": roundel

"manners of behavior": smoking tires

[Makr]

Do it and see if Tom is right!

No matter what, you learned something and that is the more valuable than going fast, turning sharp, or talking dirty.

[epmedia]

in my opinion, that is an ugly car, I chose the e21 cause i love how it looks... I don't like American vehicles.

I agree the e21 is a much better looking car

Nobody here is bashing what you want to do with your car, just giving some insight...

Your cage should hold it together really good. Just be careful with those left turns while on the throttle.

- - - Updated - - -

Do it and see if Tom is right!

No matter what, you learned something and that is the more valuable than going fast, turning sharp, or talking dirty.

I wish there were digital cameras in the '80s when I modified my '53 IH L110 pickup truck for twisties through the mountains between Santa Cruz and Los Gatos. It had a 327 that I lowered and moved back, sort of like how an engine in a van sits in the cab. I could tweak the ignition timing while driving. The ventilation scoop was above the Holley carb too, that was my boost while the passenger's leg was holding it open.

Unfortunately, I busted the frame on it twice because torque, it was a fairly weak frame. The cab bolts held it together really good though. Sort of a limp mode home while the truck was sagging lower than usual.

[ButteDorFrank]

what's the 4.6 ? the bmw v8 ? and the other one is the ford 5.0L ?

.... eliminating heavy components like power steering. you won't have this luxury and the only heavy item you can move is the battery.

... hrx's suggestion of pushing the engine 10-12 inches back, or ski's suggestion of putting it in the back seat. you made a comment that the mid-engine car didn't handle well going down a straight line. well I guarantee that it handles better then if he had put it in the engine compartment.

so you don't think that your narrow minded comment fell on deaf ears. ....

I do not have the power steering rack but I can and will remove the power steering pump, and the AC compressor from the engine , which will shave a few pounds.

I will have to enlarge the transmission tunnel to fit the TKO 600, or the T56 (if I find a great deal on one) so the engine will be put as far back as I can, once I start cutting I will decide if I move the firewall back or if I can manage to keep it at the stock location. I was reading on the Vehicle Requirement for Formula Drift (don't worry this car or myself will never make it to that level) and the car needs to have stock location firewall, can't cut past the shock towers, things like that ... I'm contemplating building it to their specs, but I might change my mind once I start cutting and fitting.

here's the video of the mid engine e30 (not a v8 tho) that I saw that seems to be struggling to keep it straight. keep in mind I have no clue how it was built, and what parts were put in, but it does seem sketchy to drive.


good to hear that you don't take comments too personally, I actually look forward to see what you reply, I like a little debate once in a while. Life would be boring if everyone agreed on everything.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree the e21 is a much better looking car

Nobody here is bashing what you want to do with your car, just giving some insight...

Your cage should hold it together really good. Just be careful with those left turns while on the throttle.

- - - Updated - - -


I wish there were digital cameras in the '80s when I modified my '53 IH L110 pickup truck for twisties through the mountains between Santa Cruz and Los Gatos. It had a 327 that I lowered and moved back, sort of like how an engine in a van sits in the cab. I could tweak the ignition timing while driving. The ventilation scoop was above the Holley carb too, that was my boost while the passenger's leg was holding it open.

Unfortunately, I busted the frame on it twice because torque, it was a fairly weak frame. The cab bolts held it together really good though. Sort of a limp mode home while the truck was sagging lower than usual.

I am not taking it personally, I like to hear what everyone thinks, I keep that in mind, but I already have my mind set. I've been wanting to do this for a long time now, so I'm gonna stick with my plan. the approach I take might change because of some insight people would give me but the final product will be a v8 powered e21.

be careful on with the left turns ? as in : RWD cars tend to ketch full lock more often or easier while turning left... is that what you are refering to ?
I always knew about that but never actually researched why it's more prone to lock up turning left ... figured it has to do with the direction of rotation.

yep that pickup of yours sounds like it was a blast ! too bad you don't have videos !

[Tom D]

I think the problem you'll encounter trying to shove the engine rearwards will be the brake booster, that and the steering linkage.

the 302 ci. above is indeed the ford 5 liter small block V8. as you can see it is a very narrow engine, much more so then the chevy gen1 small block. this is probably why the sunbeam tiger came with a ford 260/289 instead of a chevy 283. of course it helped that carol shelby worked with henry ford II.

[epmedia]

what's the 4.6 ? the bmw v8 ? and the other one is the ford 5.0L ?



I do not have the power steering rack but I can and will remove the power steering pump, and the AC compressor from the engine , which will shave a few pounds.

I will have to enlarge the transmission tunnel to fit the TKO 600, or the T56 (if I find a great deal on one) so the engine will be put as far back as I can, once I start cutting I will decide if I move the firewall back or if I can manage to keep it at the stock location. I was reading on the Vehicle Requirement for Formula Drift (don't worry this car or myself will never make it to that level) and the car needs to have stock location firewall, can't cut past the shock towers, things like that ... I'm contemplating building it to their specs, but I might change my mind once I start cutting and fitting.

here's the video of the mid engine e30 (not a v8 tho) that I saw that seems to be struggling to keep it straight. keep in mind I have no clue how it was built, and what parts were put in, but it does seem sketchy to drive.


good to hear that you don't take comments too personally, I actually look forward to see what you reply, I like a little debate once in a while. Life would be boring if everyone agreed on everything.

- - - Updated - - -



I am not taking it personally, I like to hear what everyone thinks, I keep that in mind, but I already have my mind set. I've been wanting to do this for a long time now, so I'm gonna stick with my plan. the approach I take might change because of some insight people would give me but the final product will be a v8 powered e21.

be careful on with the left turns ? as in : RWD cars tend to ketch full lock more often or easier while turning left... is that what you are refering to ?
I always knew about that but never actually researched why it's more prone to lock up turning left ... figured it has to do with the direction of rotation.

yep that pickup of yours sounds like it was a blast ! too bad you don't have videos !

Continue sticking to your guns

Being careful with the left turns while on the throttle has to do with the engine torque which 'tends' to lift the left wheels off the ground.

Yea, that truck was like a go-cart when the 400 pound bed was removed. Had to do some leaf spring mods to keep it level through the mountain roads.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the problem you'll encounter trying to shove the engine rearwards will be the brake booster, that and the steering linkage.

the 302 ci. above is indeed the ford 5 liter small block V8. as you can see it is a very narrow engine, much more so then the chevy gen1 small block. this is probably why the sunbeam tiger came with a ford 260/289 instead of a chevy 283. of course it helped that carol shelby worked with henry ford II.

Well, the brake pedal is too close to the gas pedal anyways. Maybe some room can be made to slide it over a couple inches

I also wonder how a dry sump oil pan could benefit? May be able to lower the engine and pull it back just a couple inches without having to mess with the firewall?

[Tom D]

wonder how a dry sump oil pan could benefit? May be able to lower the engine and pull it back .......

and then there the weight factor again. a dry sump means you get to put 8 quarts of oil on the back axle instead of the front.

[epmedia]

and then there the weight factor again. a dry sump means you get to put 8 quarts of oil on the back axle instead of the front.

Sounds good to me, I think...

[HipMF]

what's the 4.6 ? the bmw v8 ? and the other one is the ford 5.0L ?

It's a Ford, but the idea is the same. Here's the post that I snagged the picture from:

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...5#post11500325

[ButteDorFrank]

I think the problem you'll encounter trying to shove the engine rearwards will be the brake booster, that and the steering linkage.

I'm not worried about the brake booster, that can always be deleted or moved. the steering linkage is really what will limit me. but that's another thing I'll have to figure out when I start taking it appart. I am still undecided / haven't researched yet about putting e36 control arms, front brakes and suspension, and do something to fit a manual rack with all that. OR keep all the front components of the e21, and get e12 hubs, bearings and disc to get the 5 lug swap (now I forget if it's the e12 or another model, but there's one with 5 lug that has the same size bearing, makes for an easy swap).

I want e36 front control arms for this reason:

http://slrspeed.com/applications/e36/

and also because the rear of the car will be wider because of the e28 subframe, I'd want to get the front wider too, with longer control arms to be able to get more angle and not rub.

Continue sticking to your guns

Being careful with the left turns while on the throttle has to do with the engine torque which 'tends' to lift the left wheels off the ground.

Well, the brake pedal is too close to the gas pedal anyways. Maybe some room can be made to slide it over a couple inches

I knew it had to do with some sort of rotation of the components ... engine torque wanting to lift the left wheel makes sense.

and as for the gas pedal / brake pedal issue, this would be a solution :

http://www.obpltd.com/Pedal-Boxes

I had found a brake booster delete kit for mk1 vw that was working on a lever mechanism that gave you more strength just by moving the pivot points. that is another option to retrofit into the e21

[TheNeek]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay0h...k7Q0_RnwVCfBTw

[ButteDorFrank]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay0h...k7Q0_RnwVCfBTw

that thing moves ! and sounds great ! ... I've heard that it's a pain to do that swap tho ?

[epmedia]

that thing moves ! and sounds great ! ... I've heard that it's a pain to do that swap tho ?

At least the spark plugs are easy to reach
It is rather wide however... Could be an issue if you ever have to replace the exhaust gaskets

[ButteDorFrank]

if I was going to do an iron block V8 I'd probably do a 302/351 windsor just because they're so damn small.

I'd rather push my bmw then to power it with a ford engine ! lmao ... you see alot of fox bodies with lsx swaps ... must be meaning something ... the 302 is an old and pretty weak engine in stock form, a GTI vr6 is faster then a mustang 5.0L ...

the lsx swaps are plentiful, readilly available everywhere, and you can make an easy 550hp for a total of 4500$ including the purchase of the engine ... or 483 hp for 3500$ ... that's some pretty cheap horsepower, and those engines are in pretty much every damn GM vans and trucks out there ... build your own combo

[Tom D]

if I was going to do an iron block V8 I'd probably do a 289/302 windsor in either a hi pro or boss configuration, just because they're so damn small.

- - - Updated - - -

changed my mind and my post. I forgot that the 351 had a higher deck and might not clear the hood.

personally I would rather use a LS, but they've have become too common and certainly not period correct.

- - - Updated - - -

the lsx swaps are plentiful, readilly available everywhere, and you can make an easy 550hp for a total of 4500$ including the purchase of the engine ... or 483 hp for 3500$ ...

that's what just what I mean, not period correct, everybody doing it and there's no way in hell a 400 hp E21 is going to be fast. maybe fast through the gears in a straight line, but that's not my description of fast.

[ButteDorFrank]

if I was going to do an iron block V8 I'd probably do a 289/302 windsor in either a hi pro or boss configuration, just because they're so damn small.

- - - Updated - - -

changed my mind and my post. I forgot that the 351 had a higher deck and might not clear the hood.

personally I would rather use a LS, but they've have become too common and certainly not period correct.

- - - Updated - - -



that's what just what I mean, not period correct, everybody doing it and there's no way in hell a 400 hp E21 is going to be fast. maybe fast through the gears in a straight line, but that's not my description of fast.

It's probably the cheapest horsepower money can buy, we will see how "slow" it will be :P

[TheNeek]

that thing moves ! and sounds great ! ... I've heard that it's a pain to do that swap tho ?

Non-Vanos M60 (4.0L) swaps are OBD1 and quite "simple" electronically. There are many sites that relocate brake boosters and show how to get the job done. Since an E21 is rear-steer, I think it gets easier. Go with wilwood master cylinders and try to find a non-vanos OBD1 M62 (4.4L) and it's quite the screamer. Aluminum heads, 32 valve, and it's a BMW mill still. 5 or 6 speed depending on year and car it came out of.

And just for reference, it's 480ish lbs (just the engine).

20ish mpg city ta boot!

- - - Updated - - -

you may be wondering why I know so much about M62 swaps?



Currently working on one.


E21 legion secret. mums the word.

[Tom D]

what is that, an E12? little tight, but it fits.

[HipMF]

My google-fu says it's an e3. The clearancing tool on the cowl say "Yes, it will fit".

[Tom D]

that would make sense, nic has a Bavaria.

[ButteDorFrank]

Non-Vanos M60 (4.0L) swaps are OBD1 and quite "simple" electronically. There are many sites that relocate brake boosters and show how to get the job done. Since an E21 is rear-steer, I think it gets easier. Go with wilwood master cylinders and try to find a non-vanos OBD1 M62 (4.4L) and it's quite the screamer. Aluminum heads, 32 valve, and it's a BMW mill still. 5 or 6 speed depending on year and car it came out of.

And just for reference, it's 480ish lbs (just the engine).

20ish mpg city ta boot!

- - - Updated - - -

you may be wondering why I know so much about M62 swaps?



Currently working on one.


E21 legion secret. mums the word.

ohhhh nice, your wife's car ! that's awesome ... how much power does that engine produce ?

the lq4 is quite a bit more compact I believe.... here's a pic of one in an e12 (should be pretty close to the same size as the bavaria)




weight is very similar between the two engines (480 - 520) ... I know the ls base engine is pretty easy to get some good HP numbers ... and is readily available, I don't know where I would find a bmw v8 engine ... the local junk yard is a crook, and the other nearest one is 5 hour away ... I live in a damn remote location up north. money is good but everything is so far.

can't wait to see the finished product of your car... make some videos

here's a 240sx with an lq4 :

[TheNeek]

what is that, an E12? little tight, but it fits.

The picture is a bit deceptive. Manifold nuts wouldn't be fun but it's not quite as bad as it looks.

ohhhh nice, your wife's car ! that's awesome ... how much power does that engine produce ?

Stock it'll make 300hp 310tq. Not earth shattering. I'm doing it more to keep it all BMW, and for the beautiful 32 valve noise.

[kilian22]

i personally think the v8 is kinda heavy, but damn do i love the idea. i went with a toyota blacktop beams for my e21 (will start thread soon) rated at 210hp not overly aggressive but i think it'll be awesome with the great balance of the car. a jdm engine was cheaper than going to my local junkyard and getting anything heavier so i thought what they hey...... i'm a urban hillbilly with a jap engine in a German car (i'm gonna piss of a lot of people and i love it)


- - - Updated - - -

i personally think the v8 is kinda heavy, but damn do i love the idea. i went with a toyota blacktop beams for my e21 (will start thread soon) rated at 210hp not overly aggressive but i think it'll be awesome with the great balance of the car. a jdm engine was cheaper than going to my local junkyard and getting anything heavier so i thought what they hey...... i'm a urban hillbilly with a jap engine in a German car (i'm gonna piss of a lot of people and i love it)


- - - Updated - - -

apperently i overdid that a little, sorry everyone lol