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Thread: Which MC for Massive Brake Booster Delete?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeronaut View Post
    And...for those that are using this in an E36, any updates on how it's working out?
    Also, is there a known fitment for the brake position sensor that's OEM in some boosters?
    I'm planning on an update, but unfortunately don't have one yet. I went to the track for a test day last fall, but had the rear master on the front lines, and didn't have the capability to fix it while I was there. It was, not good the way I had it.

    I'm hesitant to say what I have chosen for master bores, because I didn't write it down where I can get to it... and I don't want anyone to start with the wrong stuff like I did. I think one is .700 and the other is .750 but I just don't remember.

    I'm not racing until May at Heartland, but I'll have to sort it out before I get there.
    2017 F250 Superduty Race Red.
    2016 ATC 24' Raven trailer.
    2015 Four Wheel Hawk camper.
    2002 BMW M Roaster - 3rd Place Solo2 Nationals ASP 2001 and SM2 2002. Still love'n it.
    1998 BMW 328is E Production road racer in training.
    1994 Club Car golf cart. Supposedly better than walking.
    Looking for 2003 330Xi for rallycross

  2. #77
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    Got home and checked. After my track day fiasco, I swapped to 3/4 front and 7/8 rear. I may get out next weekend weather dependant
    2017 F250 Superduty Race Red.
    2016 ATC 24' Raven trailer.
    2015 Four Wheel Hawk camper.
    2002 BMW M Roaster - 3rd Place Solo2 Nationals ASP 2001 and SM2 2002. Still love'n it.
    1998 BMW 328is E Production road racer in training.
    1994 Club Car golf cart. Supposedly better than walking.
    Looking for 2003 330Xi for rallycross

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inflame View Post
    Interesting, I'd like to see what people say about a 17/17, 19/19, etc setup.

    I am running the Rallyroad kit front and rear on my E36. I ordered a wilwood proportioning valve for the rear as I don't like the rear bias much but I like running the same pad F/R, allows to switch F/R pads (same shape) if fronts get low and rears are still good.

    The sensitivity of the stock, boosted setup is way too high and I don't have the confidence as I can't get smoothing braking before a turn. Increasing pedal travel and decreasing boost seems to be the next logical step. I'm a fairly small guy, 145#, so I feel a 19/19 setup may be the right choice?

    Please chime in!
    Bueller?

    I ordered and installed the delete kit, looking for some insight on a 19/19 master cylinder that will fit the stock brake fluid reservoir.

    I found this Porsche 911 turbo MC, it is a 19/19 and looks to have the same spacing for the reservoir outlet... only thing I am slightly worried about is the push rod diameter prior to the bolt flange...

    Anyone chime in on this?

    https://www.ecstuning.com/b-uro-part...135501202~uro/

    Thank you,

    Bart

  4. #79
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    You probably don't want to hear this, but I know several people who switched to the Tilton masters, and own every one of them (.700 -> 1.000) myself included. You really can make the braking feel completely differently by picking different sizes; you'll probably have to do like the rest of us and try them at the track. Take some brake fluid, fresh pads, and 2-3 different masters to try. No one can tell you what you're going to like. I hated the 18s I started with and am up to 25/22 now.
    2017 F250 Superduty Race Red.
    2016 ATC 24' Raven trailer.
    2015 Four Wheel Hawk camper.
    2002 BMW M Roaster - 3rd Place Solo2 Nationals ASP 2001 and SM2 2002. Still love'n it.
    1998 BMW 328is E Production road racer in training.
    1994 Club Car golf cart. Supposedly better than walking.
    Looking for 2003 330Xi for rallycross

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoMZ302 View Post
    You probably don't want to hear this, but I know several people who switched to the Tilton masters, and own every one of them (.700 -> 1.000) myself included. You really can make the braking feel completely differently by picking different sizes; you'll probably have to do like the rest of us and try them at the track. Take some brake fluid, fresh pads, and 2-3 different masters to try. No one can tell you what you're going to like. I hated the 18s I started with and am up to 25/22 now.
    Indeed. let's not forget that not everyone has the same strength in their leg. Not every seat is positioned the same, which also affect how much force can be applied on the brake pedal. And let's not forget that the type of pad compound will also affect your stopping power, and your force applied on the brake pedal.

    While 19mm MCs (3/4") is a baseline when using calipers with a single 60mm piston or multiple 1.625" pistons, it very often requires to adjust the MC size. And this is why I designed the twin MC booster delete kit with balance bar. It allows to fit a wide range of MCs. Not to mention that front and rear MC size can be tuned. Not two cars have exactly the same weight distribution, same suspension, and driver preferences.

    1969 2002 racecar + 1989 e30 M3 racecar


  6. #81
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    Hey Lee,
    As much as I do not want to further complicate my life,,, what is the install procedure if I were to swap from your non-power MC adapter that I have now to this setup pictured above?
    What mechanical / physical changes would be needed on an E30 (beyond plumbing, that is understood).
    The future service-ability of switching to non-BMW masters is intriguing and having some further adjustability in adverse weather would be nice.
    Hope you are well
    Thanks
    jimmy
    jimmy p.


    88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - street
    88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - SCCA SPU
    87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car 2.0 Litre
    04 Ford F350 - V10
    06 Audi A3 Brilliant Red / 2.0 / DSG

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmypet View Post
    Hey Lee,
    As much as I do not want to further complicate my life,,, what is the install procedure if I were to swap from your non-power MC adapter that I have now to this setup pictured above?
    What mechanical / physical changes would be needed on an E30 (beyond plumbing, that is understood).
    The future service-ability of switching to non-BMW masters is intriguing and having some further adjustability in adverse weather would be nice.
    Hope you are well
    Thanks
    jimmy
    More pictures here BTW
    https://www.facebook.com/pg/Massive-...35244873250970

    It is even simpler to install than the single MC booster delete kit. No need to drill a hole higher on the pedal lever to get a higher 6:1 pedal ratio (from stock 4:1). The pick-up is on the original location, using the original clevis (which you recycle from the old booster). The pedal ratio has the multiplier (6:1 and 6.8 to 1) directly built-in within the pedal box. In fact when I designed that kit 7 years ago at the same time as the now famous single MC booster delete kit, the multiplier was the aspect I couldn't achieve. It was just too simple for me to see it. The 6 years later I had an epiphany... Allelujah !!! Found the design, and it is universal between any car. Only the mounting pattern on the firewall changes. The pushrod stays centered and in the same location as stock, whichever the car.

    All that is needed is to remove the original brake booster and fit this twin MC booster delete kit in place. No cutting and no drilling.

    The benefit fo that kit versus a traditional pedal box is that it installs quickly. No need for welding a structure under the dash to hold the pedal box, and no hole to drill through the firewall. Also, the pedal area ergonomics stays the same as before as nothing is touched. All the changes happen ahead of the firewall. But you get the same functionality as a full-on pedal box. Choice of master cylinders and instant bias adjustability.

    I suggest buy off eBay a brake booster dust boot to isolate the cabin from the engine bay.

    Last edited by Massive Lee; 03-28-2017 at 03:00 PM.
    1969 2002 racecar + 1989 e30 M3 racecar


  8. #83
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    I'm sold.
    So if I love the feel of my 25mm 7 series master currently I'd assume I start w/ 1" master in front and then the next smaller size rear as a starting point?

    You still have a website or do I email you?
    I'm not a Facebooker.
    jimmy p.


    88 E30 M3 Zinnoberot - street
    88 E30 M3 Lachsilber - SCCA SPU
    87 E30 M3 Prodrive British Touring Car 2.0 Litre
    04 Ford F350 - V10
    06 Audi A3 Brilliant Red / 2.0 / DSG

  9. #84
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    Hey Jimmy

    Email me at massivebrakes@gmail.com

    Thanks

    Lee
    1969 2002 racecar + 1989 e30 M3 racecar


  10. #85
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    I ordered the 19mm and I"ll most likely order the 23mm also if the 19mm is too soft.

    Excited to see the results.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massive Lee View Post
    No need to drill a hole higher on the pedal lever to get a higher 6:1 pedal ratio (from stock 4:1).
    Wait - what???
    2017 F250 Superduty Race Red.
    2016 ATC 24' Raven trailer.
    2015 Four Wheel Hawk camper.
    2002 BMW M Roaster - 3rd Place Solo2 Nationals ASP 2001 and SM2 2002. Still love'n it.
    1998 BMW 328is E Production road racer in training.
    1994 Club Car golf cart. Supposedly better than walking.
    Looking for 2003 330Xi for rallycross

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoMZ302 View Post
    Wait - what???
    Changing to manual brakes reduces your mechanical advantage over the brakes, since the brake booster/servo is removed. Two countermeasures can be used to get a lot of the mechanical advantage back -- the first is to increase the leverage ratio. The second is to reduce the diameter of the master cylinder.

    In order to increase the leverage ratio, you need to move the point at which the brake arm attaches to the input shaft of the master cylinder.

    Massive's booster delete plate shifts the master cylinder upwards maybe around 25 mm or so, and the brake input shaft attachment point on the brake pedal has to correspondingly be moved upwards 25 mm.

    However, with Massive's fancy booster delete bracket, it has a lever arm built into it so that you do not need to drill into your stock brake arm, instead that is achieved through a linkage attached to the bracket.

  13. #88
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    FredK - thanks for the explanation - I understand the physics of it all.

    I either missed this detail on the install instructions or there weren't any instructions and I left the pivot point where it was for the master delete kit.

    I was hoping Lee would chime. I can easily move it back to stock. Well easily meaning crawling around on the floorboard upside down with my back twisted into a knot.
    2017 F250 Superduty Race Red.
    2016 ATC 24' Raven trailer.
    2015 Four Wheel Hawk camper.
    2002 BMW M Roaster - 3rd Place Solo2 Nationals ASP 2001 and SM2 2002. Still love'n it.
    1998 BMW 328is E Production road racer in training.
    1994 Club Car golf cart. Supposedly better than walking.
    Looking for 2003 330Xi for rallycross

  14. #89
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    Which master delete kit do you have? If it's the machined aluminum plate like in this picture:
    3SQBW1k.jpg

    then you need to drill a pivot higher.

    If you have the welded steel booster delete, you leave the pedal alone.

  15. #90
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    I had the one that just deleted the booster and used the stock dual-piston master.... then I sold that and moved to the separate (tilton) master unit pictured above.

    Guess I'm moving the pivot back to stock. I wonder what my pedal ratio is?!
    Last edited by CoMZ302; 04-07-2017 at 04:00 PM.
    2017 F250 Superduty Race Red.
    2016 ATC 24' Raven trailer.
    2015 Four Wheel Hawk camper.
    2002 BMW M Roaster - 3rd Place Solo2 Nationals ASP 2001 and SM2 2002. Still love'n it.
    1998 BMW 328is E Production road racer in training.
    1994 Club Car golf cart. Supposedly better than walking.
    Looking for 2003 330Xi for rallycross

  16. #91
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    I've tried everything from 17mm, 19mm, 21mm, and 1" (25.4mm) with the Massive delete plate, 6.4 pedal ratio. UUC front kit, stock rear calipers- Raybestos ST-43 pads front & 45 rears. The 21mm is by far my personal preference. The 17 & 19 were too soft, and the 1" was like stepping on a brick (which some like). Since I have a Mustang engine, I found it only appropriate to use a fox body Mustang MC (the 21mm).

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by ross2004 View Post
    I've tried everything from 17mm, 19mm, 21mm, and 1" (25.4mm) with the Massive delete plate, 6.4 pedal ratio. UUC front kit, stock rear calipers- Raybestos ST-43 pads front & 45 rears. The 21mm is by far my personal preference. The 17 & 19 were too soft, and the 1" was like stepping on a brick (which some like). Since I have a Mustang engine, I found it only appropriate to use a fox body Mustang MC (the 21mm).
    This kit?

    http://store.uucmotorwerks.com/big-b...l-ix-p563.aspx

  18. #93
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    That's the one

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by ross2004 View Post
    I've tried everything from 17mm, 19mm, 21mm, and 1" (25.4mm) with the Massive delete plate, 6.4 pedal ratio. UUC front kit, stock rear calipers- Raybestos ST-43 pads front & 45 rears. The 21mm is by far my personal preference. The 17 & 19 were too soft, and the 1" was like stepping on a brick (which some like). Since I have a Mustang engine, I found it only appropriate to use a fox body Mustang MC (the 21mm).
    I agree the 19mm is way too soft. I was going to try the 23mm from a 911. Curious how the 21mm is now, maybe there's a 22mm somewhere out there? Lol

  20. #95
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    A 23mm should feel pretty nice on track, might be a little hard on the street.

  21. #96
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    When you guys say the 19mm is "too soft", is it because the pedal gets too long, or the activation is too soft? Also, how does it compare to the OEM with booster? Is it "softer", about the same or harder?

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakermac View Post
    When you guys say the 19mm is "too soft", is it because the pedal gets too long, or the activation is too soft? Also, how does it compare to the OEM with booster? Is it "softer", about the same or harder?
    It's legitimately soft and too much stroke IMO. Much softer than the OEM pedal. I feel a 21mm+ will feel great with a nice firm pedal.

  23. #98
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    OK so - I tried 1.000 rear and 0.875 front last night. The pedal is simply too hard to be safe on the track - much less fast on the track...

    I have to push so hard to get it to slow down. I can ultimately get them to lock, but I wouldn't last a whole race like that ( and I can leg press 300+)

    Just for the hell of it, I swapped out the front master to to the rear -and the rears just locked first instead of the fronts.

    I'm going to have to go back down - not sure to what yet. I may do 3/4 front 7/8 rear and hope for the best.

    I'm honestly considering going back to the stock booster and master.
    2017 F250 Superduty Race Red.
    2016 ATC 24' Raven trailer.
    2015 Four Wheel Hawk camper.
    2002 BMW M Roaster - 3rd Place Solo2 Nationals ASP 2001 and SM2 2002. Still love'n it.
    1998 BMW 328is E Production road racer in training.
    1994 Club Car golf cart. Supposedly better than walking.
    Looking for 2003 330Xi for rallycross

  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakermac View Post
    When you guys say the 19mm is "too soft", is it because the pedal gets too long, or the activation is too soft? Also, how does it compare to the OEM with booster? Is it "softer", about the same or harder?
    Exactly, the pedal stroke is too long. On track it's much easier to modulate and commit to muscle memory pedal pressure than it is stroke length. A 19mm would probably work for a street driven car, but I think you'd still find it too soft.

    Also if anyone is interested I'm parting out my E30. Delete plate, modified pedal, 21mm master $150 + shipping.
    Last edited by ross2004; 04-11-2017 at 12:53 PM.

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoMZ302 View Post
    OK so - I tried 1.000 rear and 0.875 front last night. The pedal is simply too hard to be safe on the track - much less fast on the track...

    I have to push so hard to get it to slow down. I can ultimately get them to lock, but I wouldn't last a whole race like that ( and I can leg press 300+)

    Just for the hell of it, I swapped out the front master to to the rear -and the rears just locked first instead of the fronts.

    I'm going to have to go back down - not sure to what yet. I may do 3/4 front 7/8 rear and hope for the best.

    I'm honestly considering going back to the stock booster and master.
    I feel comparing street performance to track performance isn't ideal as a track brake pads CoF is very low when cold and on track, with elevated temps and higher CoF the braking torque will be much much higher.

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