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Thread: Which MC for Massive Brake Booster Delete?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakermac View Post
    SCCA Autocross requires a dual circuit system.

    Lee, I'm really liking the looks of your new dual master stuff. How well do you think this would play with the BMW E36 3 channel ABS? What about an upgrade to the E46 M3 Bosch MK60 system?
    The new twin MC booster delete kit is just two pistons pushing fluid. ;-) I made sure the interface to the e30, e36 and e46 chassis and brake pedal is accurate and that the kit was stiff. ABS is another territory. Let me explain.
    Some MC manufacturer ( I think it was on AP Racing's UK website) claims mechanical incompatibility with ABS systems, while others have absolutely no reference to this inccompatibility. I really don't know where the itch would be. At least mechanically speaking, as it is only two brake line coming from the MCs and connecting into an ABS pump.

    Electronically speaking, some ABS systems use a position sensor. A round cylinder initially located in the brake booster.




    I think the three channel ABS don't have it, while the 4 channel ABS have it. Not all e36 have it. Not sure about that. So, if a signal is required, I heard some people were fooling the ABS system by fitting 1K Ohm resistor on the small harness to replace the sensor. I think it is not correct as if there's a sensor, there's probably a modulation of signal expected for the ABS module. So, my take is to reuse the sensor, locate it on the side of the twin MC assembly, with the tip of the sensor pushing against either side of the balance bar. It shall send the same movement as from a booster. if the movement is too much, then perhaps find a location where the travel is exactly the same as from the original booster. That is somewhere higher up on the balance bar's lever.

    On the subject of ABS. Keeping it on ditching it. I understand the fear from many racers. They drove their e36 or e46 with the constant fear of hitting ABS simply because BMW made sure that they designed an excessively powerful booster system so that ABS engages quickly. This was part of the thinking in the early 1990s (when the e36 was designed) that ABS will better brake than most drivers (which is actually true for your aunty and mr Magoo)... I think that if a racer needs ABS not to lock its car's wheels, then he needs to go back to HPDEs... But hey, it is only my point of view. ;-) That being said, when installing a pedal box or a booster delete system, driver get a much better control of their braking. The increase in brake modulation allows to much reduce the times when ABS is engaged. I will not judge those who want to keep their ABS, but is is something I don't want myself. ;-) In fact, I remember hitting the ABS only once in my e30 M3, and it was because I wasn't lined up properly in my braking zone (call that a brain fade). ;-)
    Last edited by Massive Lee; 12-21-2015 at 04:55 PM.
    1969 2002 racecar + 1989 e30 M3 racecar


  2. #52
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    FWIW, my 93 318i chassis with the 3-channel abs had a travel sensor.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyfizzle View Post
    FWIW, my 93 318i chassis with the 3-channel abs had a travel sensor.
    Thanks. Good to know.

    Lee
    1969 2002 racecar + 1989 e30 M3 racecar


  4. #54
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    Any details on the new Massive dual MC kit? I don't see it on the website. I've removed my boosted and deciding which way to go with pedals, MC...

  5. #55
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    1969 2002 racecar + 1989 e30 M3 racecar


  6. #56
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    Yay

  7. #57
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    This is a prototype batch. 10 units are made and sold at much lower $. They started selling this morning and expect that half of them will be gone by the end of the day. I designed the kit to be a bolt-on, and with two different pedal ratios easily adjustable. Short kit. Long kit. Three models available : e30 (also fits e28 and e24, e21), e36, and e46 (assymetric bolt pattern).

    Lee
    1969 2002 racecar + 1989 e30 M3 racecar


  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massive Lee View Post
    The new twin MC booster delete kit is just two pistons pushing fluid. ;-) I made sure the interface to the e30, e36 and e46 chassis and brake pedal is accurate and that the kit was stiff. ABS is another territory. Let me explain.
    Some MC manufacturer ( I think it was on AP Racing's UK website) claims mechanical incompatibility with ABS systems, while others have absolutely no reference to this inccompatibility. I really don't know where the itch would be. At least mechanically speaking, as it is only two brake line coming from the MCs and connecting into an ABS pump.

    Electronically speaking, some ABS systems use a position sensor. A round cylinder initially located in the brake booster.




    I think the three channel ABS don't have it, while the 4 channel ABS have it. Not all e36 have it. Not sure about that. So, if a signal is required, I heard some people were fooling the ABS system by fitting 1K Ohm resistor on the small harness to replace the sensor. I think it is not correct as if there's a sensor, there's probably a modulation of signal expected for the ABS module. So, my take is to reuse the sensor, locate it on the side of the twin MC assembly, with the tip of the sensor pushing against either side of the balance bar. It shall send the same movement as from a booster. if the movement is too much, then perhaps find a location where the travel is exactly the same as from the original booster. That is somewhere higher up on the balance bar's lever.

    On the subject of ABS. Keeping it on ditching it. I understand the fear from many racers. They drove their e36 or e46 with the constant fear of hitting ABS simply because BMW made sure that they designed an excessively powerful booster system so that ABS engages quickly. This was part of the thinking in the early 1990s (when the e36 was designed) that ABS will better brake than most drivers (which is actually true for your aunty and mr Magoo)... I think that if a racer needs ABS not to lock its car's wheels, then he needs to go back to HPDEs... But hey, it is only my point of view. ;-) That being said, when installing a pedal box or a booster delete system, driver get a much better control of their braking. The increase in brake modulation allows to much reduce the times when ABS is engaged. I will not judge those who want to keep their ABS, but is is something I don't want myself. ;-) In fact, I remember hitting the ABS only once in my e30 M3, and it was because I wasn't lined up properly in my braking zone (call that a brain fade). ;-)
    I see no reason this would not work with the Teves MK60 ABS from the E46 M3, which does not employ a position sensor, at least, not in standalone form. Rather, the MK60 employs two pressure sensors, one in the front circuit and one in the rear.

    --Peter

    PS: Product looks great, BTW. Would love to modify this to fit the E39 M5! I may try! Regardless, I'm likely a buyer for my E46 GTS4 car.
    Last edited by herrubermensch; 01-09-2016 at 12:43 PM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massive Lee View Post
    Some MC manufacturer ( I think it was on AP Racing's UK website) claims mechanical incompatibility with ABS systems, while others have absolutely no reference to this inccompatibility. I really don't know where the itch would be. At least mechanically speaking, as it is only two brake line coming from the MCs and connecting into an ABS pump.
    Pretty sure you're thinking of Tilton. I looked into this a couple years ago and went as far as calling them:

    Just spoke with Tilton. According to them, there is a design difference between the 74 series MCs, and all of the others, that makes the 74 fine for ABS, where the others are not recommended. I'll do my best to describe what they told me. On all of the other MC versions, the high speed pulsation from the ABS puts a lot of pressure directly on an internal pressure seal. Something about a port inside the MC being directed right at the center of the seal, where this is not the case with the 74 series.
    The tech mentioned they had seen "some" failures, but didn't give a lot of detail of how frequent, what types of systems, etc. Basically, because of the design, if you're using ABS, they recommend the 74 series master cylinders...

    BTW Lee, I still have your full pedal box kit for my E30 and the E46 MK60 parts sitting in boxes and am still planning on installing at some point.

    Brendan
    Brendan
    '90 E30 M3
    Boston, MA

  10. #60
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    Thanks Brendan for the explanations. I suppose that continuously hitting the ABS may affect certain hydraulic components. Nonetheless, when the over enthusiastic booster is removed and a pedal box is fitted, the chances of hitting the ABS are much reduced.

    Lee
    1969 2002 racecar + 1989 e30 M3 racecar


  11. #61
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    BoT I suppose. Here's that VW rabbit master:


    I'm still trying to find a res for it that fits and doesn't cost $60 (the master cost $15). So here's my temp solution


    Can't even tell...


    I need to bleed the brakes but it seems to work fine. I had to mess with the rod length a bit and space out the master since the inner bore is bigger than the factory one on the sikky manual kit. Otherwise, looks like this might work.

    Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!

  12. #62
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    1969 2002 racecar + 1989 e30 M3 racecar


  13. #63
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    Did anyone get a definitive part number for a 19/19 master? Just ordered a delete kit. Spent some time googling and came up with this

    1967-77 VW Standard Bug
    1967-74 VW Karmann Ghia
    1973-74 VW Thing

    From what I've read it's 19/19.
    P/N 113611015BD



    '96 328iC, '96 328i, '89 s52 swapped 325i
    Shadetree30

  14. #64
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    Yep that looks right to me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I have - http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/v...+cylinder,1836
    EIS - E96431

    Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by protomor View Post
    Yep that looks right to me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I have - http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/v...+cylinder,1836
    EIS - E96431
    Great! Thanks. It also looks like from that rockauto link there are 13/16" (~20mm) MCs available there too?


    '96 328iC, '96 328i, '89 s52 swapped 325i
    Shadetree30

  16. #66
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    Figured I would update based on my experience with the 19/19 MC.

    It wasn't right for my setup. I think I should've gone with a larger bore since I am running the wilwood 4piston/corrado disc front bbk. I am also retaining ABS for the time being. I bled and bled and bled, cycled the ABS pump/solenoids and everything else I could think of but no matter what it just wasn't generating enough pressure to stop the car. I am able to press the brake pedal all the way to the end of it's travel and only at that point does the car "slow" I am thinking the 19/19 MC is the culprit, but the 19/19 MC is probably right for a car with stock brakes.

    So my next attempt will be with the VW corrado MC which is a 22/22.


    '96 328iC, '96 328i, '89 s52 swapped 325i
    Shadetree30

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpalella View Post
    Figured I would update based on my experience with the 19/19 MC.

    It wasn't right for my setup. I think I should've gone with a larger bore since I am running the wilwood 4piston/corrado disc front bbk. I am also retaining ABS for the time being. I bled and bled and bled, cycled the ABS pump/solenoids and everything else I could think of but no matter what it just wasn't generating enough pressure to stop the car. I am able to press the brake pedal all the way to the end of it's travel and only at that point does the car "slow" I am thinking the 19/19 MC is the culprit, but the 19/19 MC is probably right for a car with stock brakes.

    So my next attempt will be with the VW corrado MC which is a 22/22.
    I had similar experience with a 19/19 even on stock brakes. The pedal was really hard and it was very hard to modulate. It went from very little pressure to near lockup.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmw16 View Post
    I had similar experience with a 19/19 even on stock brakes. The pedal was really hard and it was very hard to modulate. It went from very little pressure to near lockup.
    Hmmm that's interesting. I couldn't get my brakes to lockup at all with the 19/19, but I'm not sure if that's also due in part to the larger front calipers. My pedal isn't hard at all, it gets progressively harder to press the further I push it until it's nearly at the end of it's travel. At that point I'm pressing very hard and the car slows. This is making me question if there's still air in the lines again...

    I'll try the 22/22 MC and if that doesn't improve things I'll bypass the ABS unit to see if that's the culprit trapping air. Dunno if it's worth mentioning but I also relocated the ABS unit under the driver fender, and it was drained dry in the process.

    Edit: What was your final setup? MC, calipers, discs, pads? And your feedback?
    Last edited by cpalella; 05-25-2016 at 12:01 PM.


    '96 328iC, '96 328i, '89 s52 swapped 325i
    Shadetree30

  19. #69
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    Interesting, I'd like to see what people say about a 17/17, 19/19, etc setup.

    I am running the Rallyroad kit front and rear on my E36. I ordered a wilwood proportioning valve for the rear as I don't like the rear bias much but I like running the same pad F/R, allows to switch F/R pads (same shape) if fronts get low and rears are still good.

    The sensitivity of the stock, boosted setup is way too high and I don't have the confidence as I can't get smoothing braking before a turn. Increasing pedal travel and decreasing boost seems to be the next logical step. I'm a fairly small guy, 145#, so I feel a 19/19 setup may be the right choice?

    Please chime in!

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpalella View Post
    Hmmm that's interesting. I couldn't get my brakes to lockup at all with the 19/19, but I'm not sure if that's also due in part to the larger front calipers. My pedal isn't hard at all, it gets progressively harder to press the further I push it until it's nearly at the end of it's travel. At that point I'm pressing very hard and the car slows. This is making me question if there's still air in the lines again...

    I'll try the 22/22 MC and if that doesn't improve things I'll bypass the ABS unit to see if that's the culprit trapping air. Dunno if it's worth mentioning but I also relocated the ABS unit under the driver fender, and it was drained dry in the process.

    Edit: What was your final setup? MC, calipers, discs, pads? And your feedback?
    I actually put the booster back on. Decided for an endurance car I wanted to have power brakes.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmw16 View Post
    I actually put the booster back on. Decided for an endurance car I wanted to have power brakes.
    Darn it. Makes sense though. My purpose is autox, DEs, canyon carving. Previously I was running a porsche 944 booster necessitated by the s52 swap but it just wasn't that great and didn't provide the stopping power or pedal feel I wanted.


    '96 328iC, '96 328i, '89 s52 swapped 325i
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpalella View Post
    Darn it. Makes sense though. My purpose is autox, DEs, canyon carving. Previously I was running a porsche 944 booster necessitated by the s52 swap but it just wasn't that great and didn't provide the stopping power or pedal feel I wanted.
    I'm running a 944 booster on a stock E30 MC w/ UUC BBK front and stock rear with an E46 M3 ABS. Pedal was good last season (pre-ABS). Feels good around the block with the ABS but yet to use it in anger.

  23. #73
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    It would be great if the kits had a confirmed fit purchasable M/C right from Massive in the suggested bore sizes 17,19,22,25 etc. I'm all about turn key from one vendor I guess...

  24. #74
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    Just reminding people about the 19/19mm MC that was mentioned a few times.

    http://www.nosimport.com/vw-volkswag...rans-1975-1977

    Last edited by Massive Lee; 01-16-2017 at 11:32 PM.
    1969 2002 racecar + 1989 e30 M3 racecar


  25. #75
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    And...for those that are using this in an E36, any updates on how it's working out?
    Also, is there a known fitment for the brake position sensor that's OEM in some boosters?

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