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Thread: E46 330i Automatic - M54B30 Turbo

  1. #1301
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    https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced...creep-2912170/

    two guys in in the above forum thread had success reducing creep changing to a larger AR. Maybe with your billet turbo, this wouldn't work for you....
    WOT

  2. #1302
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    Quote Originally Posted by hsvturbo View Post
    https://honda-tech.com/forums/forced...creep-2912170/

    two guys in in the above forum thread had success reducing creep changing to a larger AR. Maybe with your billet turbo, this wouldn't work for you....
    Normally I wouldn't see value in opinions without data to back it up, but I believe Tony based on previous posts over the years.

    Just the same, there isn't any data in that thread to show HOW it changed the boost on the engine. What may very well have happened is that the response of the turbo was moved down a few PSI across all RPMs, so that the turbo was operating below the boost threshold until higher RPMs. Hard to say....but I still consider it a relevant view point....

    My biggest issue is that I have to remove the engine from the car to change either the turbine housing, or anything to do with the WG. I would prefer to make a change just once.....


    In other news, my son and I tore down the engine to just the bottom end yesterday....and I hope to have the pistons/rods/crank removed today.

  3. #1303
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post

    In other news, my son and I tore down the engine to just the bottom end yesterday....and I hope to have the pistons/rods/crank removed today.
    Awesome man! Can't wait to enjoy that experience someday!

    1000+RWHP, Lab22 Built Turbo S54 - BMW Half Mile Record Holder

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    Quote Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
    My biggest issue is that I have to remove the engine from the car to change either the turbine housing, or anything to do with the WG. I would prefer to make a change just once.....
    It does look like if the wastegate was welded to the bottom of the turbine housing, you'd have enough room to swap it without having to remove the engine. You could even send your downpipe along with the turbine to have the wastegate outlet welded directly to your current system. It seems this would be the simplest option, but I know you are concerned about the effects on flow inside the turbine...

  5. #1305
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    It's been so long since I pulled an ATI damper off a crank....I forgot that I had to keep the crank bolt in for the puller bolt to press against.


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    At some point I got some junk in the oil lines after the filter:



    It looks bad, but I couldn't feel it with my finger.

    Crank journal looks no worse:



    - - - Updated - - -

    A glimpse of the billet oil squirters I'm running:





    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin View Post
    Awesome man! Can't wait to enjoy that experience someday!
    It's pretty awesome:


  7. #1307
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    Boost creep options:

    #1 - Single Tial V60 in same location as current wastegate
    #2 - Single Tial MVR on turbine housing with a divider
    #3 - Two Tial MVRs on top of SS manifold (One per bank)
    #4 - Keep the current MVR installation, and configure the Synapse BOV to open when boost limit is exceeded (Not very subtle)
    #5 - Keep the current MVR installation, and install a wastegate on the charge pipe to bleed off charge pressure prior to the intercooler (PWM control by the ECU)

    Regardless of the above, there is some interesting info that has skewed my testing so far a little bit. In the setup of the boost control solenoid, there is a low and high limit for PWM. This is a tool aimed at preventing integral wind-up. I can't recall the exact source of the recommendation, but I have been running 15% for the low, and 85% for the high limit. Up until now, I thought that a value of 15% or less would result in an output of 0% PWM, and a value of 85% or higher would result in an output of 100%. Well....my understanding doesn't appear to be reflected in the data logs. The boost control solenoid was running at 15% DC with no request, and 85% at full request. What this means is that I have been bleeding off pressure from the WG when trying to get it to open fully, and vice versa, I have been adding pressure to the gate when trying to keep it closed. I honestly don't know how much of an effect this has had, but it is still something to note.

    Option #3 would involve a lot of fabrication, and to be honest, I'm not sure I could make it all fit without doing some major sheetmetal work to the car. Still, from a control and system efficiency perspective, it's probably the best option.

    Option #5 is actually something that some drag racing cars have utilized. The strategy is used to get compressor/turbine wheel speed up prior to launch, and then allowing boost to be fed in. This would be a more dangerous thing to use to control boost under steady state loading though, as the turbine speed could easily exceed limits with high engine speeds and low boost demand. A 38mm wastegate might be a better option for this, as it could introduce a more linear range of lower air flow vs a larger gate like the 44mm MVR. Hook a duck call up to this sucker, and it would be "Da bomb"!
    Last edited by PEI330Ci; 01-05-2018 at 04:30 AM.

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    Option #1 won't work. Its the design not the gate. I took the dam gate off the car and still hit 20+#.

    Option #5 is basically what I do with pop off valves. There is also an electronic device out there designed for this. Works inline with existing BOV iirc. I looked into it, but went a different route. There was a reason tho. I'll try to dig it up.

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    I like Option #2 with Option #5...gives you all the choices and you'll be able to access the gate without pulling the motor.

    1000+RWHP, Lab22 Built Turbo S54 - BMW Half Mile Record Holder

  10. #1310
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    Never has there been so much collective effort to run LESS boost!

    I'll probably be just as giddy holding 5 PSI manifold pressure, as running 25!

    Traction.

  11. #1311
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    Option #2* if you can keep the current gate on the manifold. add a second gate to an exhaust housing. You really dont want to bleed pressure off the cool charge side. Your basically going to be pushing the turbo harder then required for most of the time adding additional heat to your system, let alone additional wear and tear on the turbo.

    Or cheap stupid solution is to add some addtional back pressure to your exhaust system until traction comes back ie when its above freezing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    Option #1 won't work. Its the design not the gate. I took the dam gate off the car and still hit 20+#.
    I would cut the existing flange off, and open up the holes to fill the ID of a 2.5" pipe. Basically, tripling the port area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin View Post
    I like Option #2 with Option #5...gives you all the choices and you'll be able to access the gate without pulling the motor.
    3 wastegates?


    Has anyone flipped the manifold upside down?
    Last edited by PEI330Ci; 01-05-2018 at 10:19 AM.

  13. #1313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters Stoch View Post
    Option #5 is basically what I do with pop off valves. There is also an electronic device out there designed for this. Works inline with existing BOV iirc. I looked into it, but went a different route. There was a reason tho. I'll try to dig it up.
    Yeah I'm not sure why you'd put a wastegate on the cold side. Just put on a BOV and PWM the reference line pressure. As others have said, not the best idea for the turbo health but Garretts are known for handling being overspun quite well.

    Quit waffling and just put the damn wastegate on the turbine housing. It's the right thing to do and what you will end up doing, sooner or later.

  14. #1314
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
    I would cut the existing flange off, and open up the holes to fill the ID of a 2.5" pipe. Basically, tripling the port area.
    The problem is poor wastegate priority in the design. Doesn't really matter how much area you add at it, you don't have enough static pressure to flow enough out of the entire manifold to drop your turbine inlet pressure enough. You run out of practical WG area increases before you really fix the problem.


    IMO, add a WG to the turbine housing. I'm not sure why you're so reluctant to do it. You can add a mechanical backup to support the WG with a bolt to the turbine hsg to CHRA connection if you're really worried about the weld failing. That should support things plenty well enough and not relay on any welding.


    Do you really want to run super low boost pressures? At some point it becomes a lot of effort for a really outlier case IMO. I always viewed like 10-14 psi as a reasonable low boost number on a streetable engine.

  15. #1315
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    Gate on the housing looks to be your best option. I think it looks like shit, but it does work.
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    Or, if you have the space, run an EFR9180 IWG and supplement the IWG with a 44-50mm EWG that fits the steedspeed 44mm flange. That is what I run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PEI330Ci View Post
    3 wastegates?
    Nah...new turbine/divided wastegate with a small BOV setup to open if you wanted to increase turbine speed.

    1000+RWHP, Lab22 Built Turbo S54 - BMW Half Mile Record Holder

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJuggernaut View Post
    Quit waffling and just put the damn wastegate on the turbine housing. It's the right thing to do and what you will end up doing, sooner or later.
    The irony.

    Most reading this forum would assume that I'm an insecure and indecisive person.

    Meanwhile in real life...

    :P

  19. #1319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Def View Post
    Do you really want to run super low boost pressures? At some point it becomes a lot of effort for a really outlier case IMO. I always viewed like 10-14 psi as a reasonable low boost number on a streetable engine.
    I've run this engine with a fairly good range of boost so far, so I've got some good data to base torque targets on. 5 PSI was usable in first gear, and between 8-10 PSI was useful in 2nd. Being able to thrash the car in varying road/track conditions is my goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by dburt86 View Post
    Gate on the housing looks to be your best option. I think it looks like shit, but it does work.
    It's also the lightest weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    Or, if you have the space, run an EFR9180 IWG and supplement the IWG with a 44-50mm EWG that fits the steedspeed 44mm flange. That is what I run.
    Thanks for the recommendation.

    I don't know if I currently have the space, but I have some fairly major changes planned to the chassis that it wouldn't be a problem with. However, I actually really like the GTX40 turbo on this manifold. If I can get boost creep under control, it is a really good fit for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin View Post
    Nah...new turbine/divided wastegate with a small BOV setup to open if you wanted to increase turbine speed.
    Nitrous.
    Last edited by PEI330Ci; 01-05-2018 at 11:44 PM.

  20. #1320
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    Im pretty surprised no one makes a divided turbine housing with a divided "race gate" off it. Seems really useful for a lot of applications due to lack of space in the engine bay.

    Then again people need to design manifolds with boost control in mind which would solve a lot of issues! This 90deg from the flow path business is nonsense
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    Quote Originally Posted by wazzu70 View Post
    Im pretty surprised no one makes a divided turbine housing with a divided "race gate" off it. Seems really useful for a lot of applications due to lack of space in the engine bay.

    Then again people need to design manifolds with boost control in mind which would solve a lot of issues! This 90deg from the flow path business is nonsense
    There's no one placement that would work for everyone.

    It's mainly a problem for guys running low backpressure. Most of the smaller turbo/smaller exhaust can control boost with those manifolds.

  22. #1322
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJuggernaut View Post
    There's no one placement that would work for everyone.

    It's mainly a problem for guys running low backpressure. Most of the smaller turbo/smaller exhaust can control boost with those manifolds.
    When I first installed this manifold with the GTX3076R and 1.06 A/R twin scroll housing, I had a 5.8 PSI WG spring on the MVR:




    That lasted 1 test drive, and I pulled the WG off to install a 10.15 PSI WG spring:




    With the 10.15 PSI spring, I saw boost moving around between 10.5 to 13 PSI across the rev range....but it held. I should also note that at that time, I was running a Catalytic converter on the car. However, I'm not sure how much back pressure this contributed, as I didn't have a sensor mounted after the turbine housing. Worth noting though...


    When I put the GTX40 on the car, I removed the Catalytic converter from the 3" exhaust and replaced it with a 12" resonator. (Muffler) I installed the exact same MVR WG with the 10.15 PSI Spring, and slightly revised the 1.75" recirculated WG Pipe. (Not much difference from when the GTX30 was installed) On the first test drive, I saw massive boost creep:



    In my experience, the Steed Speed Twincsroll manifold can be regulated down to very manageable boost levels with a smaller turbo. (The GTX30 had a 55mm turbine wheel)

    Once you reduce exhaust back pressure by going with a larger turbine wheel, larger exhaust housing, and/or lower restriction exhaust, boost control becomes more difficult.

  23. #1323
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    What is the RPM fluctuation @ 14:05 min mark on the last pic?

  24. #1324
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexQuattro View Post
    What is the RPM fluctuation @ 14:05 min mark on the last pic?
    It's the fuel cut for the boost limit.

    If manifold pressure exceeds the boost limit I've set, the ECU cuts fuel and turns off the WG solenoid. (You can see that on the bottom trace)

  25. #1325
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    Only problem is with a GT30 turbine your P3 is unreasonably high Cant have it all I guess!
    -Nick
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