E46 330i Automatic - M54B30 Turbo

[Butters Stoch]

Let me learn you guys about some smoke.

https://youtu.be/Wl1XIqbAhdo

[someguy2800]

Hey I've got an idea, how about we all take each other by the hand and climb down out of the guys ass and let him do what he wants with his own car?

[PEI330Ci]

My car's left the track on a tow bed more times than most people here even go to a track. I went through 3 driveshafts, 3 diff bolts, diff covers and other stuff in less than a year. Not trying to take cheap shots. Just find it weird you think your problem is with turbo selections and other issues. I'm on a base map on stock dme and never even been on a dyno. Until you're cutting 1.xx 60' and consistent times, why would you ever blame the car's power or components?

Lets just assume I never went to the drag strip, never had any aspirations to go, and never had a dyno # in mind.

I have a vision of how I want to feel when I drive this car. The car didn't make the power I was expecting, so I went looking for answers. I went to the drag strip to safely put the car under load repeatedly, as part of the process to develop the powertrain.

I don't need to be faster than anyone, I do this for my own enjoyment.

You've gone faster than me, have probably broken more parts, and clearly have more power than I do. However, please don't belittle my achievements, I've worked very hard for them.

[E36Mylo]

Lets just assume I never went to the drag strip, never had any aspirations to go, and never had a dyno # in mind.

I have a vision of how I want to feel when I drive this car. The car didn't make the power I was expecting, so I went looking for answers. I went to the drag strip to safely put the car under load repeatedly, as part of the process to develop the powertrain.

I don't need to be faster than anyone, I do this for my own enjoyment.

You've gone faster than me, have probably broken more parts, and clearly have more power than I do. However, please don't belittle my achievements, I've worked very hard for them.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone's achievements. I'm nobody on here to do so anyways. I still have a lot more to learn. I'm just trying to offer the little bit of advice that I can with my experience. That advice is, the only data you should be worried about if you want to drag race is printed on a little slip of paper that the fat old lady hands to you in the little booth after every pass.

As far as "feeling" goes, every drag racer and track racer will tell you that their fastest times have felt the slowest inside the car.

[rajicase]

Hey I've got an idea, how about we all take each other by the hand and climb down out of the guys ass and let him do what he wants with his own car?

But I like it in the ass....
Oh wait.

[wazzu70]

I didnt see him say he was not going to race anymore on the setup he has. He is just saying the GT30 turbine is too small for the engine and he is looking at other options. Nothing wrong with that at all since this is a project for him to experiment and learn with.

[PEI330Ci]

I'm not trying to belittle anyone's achievements. I'm nobody on here to do so anyways. I still have a lot more to learn. I'm just trying to offer the little bit of advice that I can with my experience. That advice is, the only data you should be worried about if you want to drag race is printed on a little slip of paper that the fat old lady hands to you in the little booth after every pass.

As far as "feeling" goes, every drag racer and track racer will tell you that their fastest times have felt the slowest inside the car.

But I like it in the ass....
Oh wait.

Do you 2 know each other?

I didnt see him say he was not going to race anymore on the setup he has. He is just saying the GT30 turbine is too small for the engine and he is looking at other options. Nothing wrong with that at all since this is a project for him to experiment and learn with.

You get it.

I'll always be looking for something...

[stefm5]

i agree with adam.
for some of us it's all about the feeling, enjoying driving the car.
nothing to do with numbers, drag or dyno.

[E36Mylo]

i agree with adam.
for some of us it's all about the feeling, enjoying driving the car.
nothing to do with numbers, drag or dyno.

If that's the case...then why even put it on a drag or dyno?

[stefm5]

i've never done both, but i would go to dyno just to know how the set up works.
but even if the dyno shows huge numbers, my feeling comes first. that's the point.

[PEI330Ci]

It appears I have a troll in my thread.

[Butters Stoch]

I envy you guys. I've overbuilt mine, now it sucks to drive on the street. I'm now spending more money to tame it down but just can't bring myself to give up the power. Even tho 700 wheel is useless on the street.
I was real excited to build a bullet proof 700hp car. Now I want to shoot bullets at it. I couldn't even think about changing platforms, it would be way too expensive to get to where I'm at.
I used to love my car as I was building it. Slowly modding to meet goals, while driving the piss out of it while doing so.

That being said, here is my $0.02
Take your time, do it super slowly, enjoy the build as you drive, cause the pot at the end of the rainbow is empty.

Consider this a freebie, like when my dad looked at me straight in the eye and said "your never going to be a professional fluffier , get out there and learn a trade".

[Matutino]

I envy you guys. I've overbuilt mine, now it sucks to drive on the street. I'm now spending more money to tame it down but just can't bring myself to give up the power. Even tho 700 wheel is useless on the street.
I was real excited to build a bullet proof 700hp car. Now I want to shoot bullets at it. I couldn't even think about changing platforms, it would be way too expensive to get to where I'm at.
I used to love my car as I was building it. Slowly modding to meet goals, while driving the piss out of it while doing so.

That being said, here is my $0.02
Take your time, do it super slowly, enjoy the build as you drive, cause the pot at the end of the rainbow is empty.

Consider this a freebie, like when my dad looked at me straight in the eye and said "your never going to be a professional fluffier , get out there and learn a trade".

Yeah, I would hate to do this to my M. I can dd mine if I want and still enjoy it.

[5271990]

Does anyone run the GT3582 T4 1.06 twinscroll on a 3.0 M5x engine?
Would be interesting to compare a dyno to the well established T3 GT3582 0.63 that is loved by many

[Matutino]

I'm running a gt3586r t4 1.06

[AlexQuattro]

It appears I have a troll in my thread.

Adam,

please don't let the negative comments get to you. I have been following your builds for many years and across 4 different forums. The attention to detail and ''step by step'' you provide is a real pleasure to witness.

I've lost count at how many times you've modified or re-done your downpipe. I remember at the beginning of this build when you said you didn't want to run nitrous through the catalytic converter to not damage it because that would defeat the purpose of this car, and now you are talking about running nitrous. The simple truth is goals change, wants change, needs change and some people misinterpret that as you running around in circles. The important thing is that you keep enjoying the experience of building and driving the car and hopefully posting on the forums doesn't stop you form having fun.

This is a unique build. How many people on here have the skills let alone the ressources needed to do what you have done. You built your own top quality wiring harness and are tuning the engine yourself... I can only imagine the amount of patience and dedication needed to do this. A big reason of putting all those sensors in was to know exactly what was happening under the hood, and look at what that has allowed you to learn about your turbo... way I see it, this is all good! Maybe the current turbo isn't optimal and you need something else. So what? Anybody that has done R&D knows this is all normal and part of the process.

Just remember that there are some people like me that are true enthusiasts and appreciate everything you have done for the community, and that some people just​ won't get it no matter what you say.

[PEI330Ci]

Adam,

please don't let the negative comments get to you. I have been following your builds for many years and across 4 different forums. The attention to detail and ''step by step'' you provide is a real pleasure to witness.

I've lost count at how many times you've modified or re-done your downpipe. I remember at the beginning of this build when you said you didn't want to run nitrous through the catalytic converter to not damage it because that would defeat the purpose of this car, and now you are talking about running nitrous. The simple truth is goals change, wants change, needs change and some people misinterpret that as you running around in circles. The important thing is that you keep enjoying the experience of building and driving the car and hopefully posting on the forums doesn't stop you form having fun.

This is a unique build. How many people on here have the skills let alone the ressources needed to do what you have done. You built your own top quality wiring harness and are tuning the engine yourself... I can only imagine the amount of patience and dedication needed to do this. A big reason of putting all those sensors in was to know exactly what was happening under the hood, and look at what that has allowed you to learn about your turbo... way I see it, this is all good! Maybe the current turbo isn't optimal and you need something else. So what? Anybody that has done R&D knows this is all normal and part of the process.

Just remember that there are some people like me that are true enthusiasts and appreciate everything you have done for the community, and that some people just​ won't get it no matter what you say.

Thank you.

I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to share such a positive view point.

I will continue.

[PEI330Ci]

Back to data.

I wanted to look at something that nobody has dug into here: The affects of pre-compressor water/meth injection on mass flow through the turbo, and temperature differential. In theory, injecting water into the compressor is supposed to increase it's adiabatic efficiency, increasing mass flow. Being that I have the ability to accurately log mass flow, pressure, and temp, I thought it would be easy.

It is not so easy.

First, I wanted to look at the temperature change by injecting water/meth pre-turbo. I went out on a test drive, and did some pulls in various gears with the Water/Meth injection turned on and off. (That was over a week ago) I've now created a maths channel to subtract turbo outlet temp from turbo inlet temps, and plotted this against mass flow. The green points are with WI on, and the red points are with the WI off comparing 2 back to back pulls:



The problem with this data is that when I zoomed out to show all of the events, there was scatter everywhere for green and red. The starting temps for both with and without WI varied every time, so none of the test pulls are valid.

What am I talking about?

This is the start of the above pulls, where there is a 17.3 deg C difference in compressor outlet temps:



This is the end of the above pulls, where there is an 8.0 deg delta:



Yes there is a temperature differential, but the turbo was heat saturated from the previous pull when I turned the WI off.

To properly do this test, I need to stabilize the engine and air temps, and do pulls with identical engine starting metrics. For that, I kinda need a dyno....

[PEI330Ci]

...and if anyone noticed, the Compressor inlet temps are being greatly affected by heat from the exhaust housing. The air inlet pipe, is a great receptor of this heat, as it sits 10-12" away from the Steed Speed. Also, the sensor itself is mounted on the top of the inlet pipe, also receiving heat from the exhaust. As air velocity through the pipe increases, it "cools" the pipe and we see a drop in inlet temps. But once I get off the throttle, it heat saturates again.

This was one of the first tell-tales that the Bosch air temp sensors I was using were too slow. The inlet trace held high....all the time while the engine was running, and then would cool down to ambient with the engine off. I've now got much faster air temp sensors mounted everywhere, but in this area the sensor is still being greatly affected by radiant heat.

The plan is to use a bunch of adhesive backed thermal tape (Pictured again below) to wrap both the inlet pipe and the temp sensor up....hopefully that gives a better data trace, and cooler more stable air temps for this measurement.




This is the same stuff in larger pieces:

http://www.thermotec.com/products/ad...t-barrier.html

[Commanderwiggin]

In for dyno tested; relative condition results!

[PEI330Ci]

In for dyno tested; relative condition results!

I really need to buy a chassis dyno; this kind of testing is iterative, and requires a lot of time between pulls to stabilize critical parameters.

1000+RWHP? Really? Did you put some new stickers on the car? :P

[Def]

You might also want to fabricate some heat shields around the manifold. It would be pretty easy to weld on some M6 bosses around it then hammer some thin stainless steel to form. Bonus points for creating a double wall heat shield in critical areas with a ~3/16-1/4" air gap.

[Commanderwiggin]

I really need to buy a chassis dyno; this kind of testing is iterative, and requires a lot of time between pulls to stabilize critical parameters.

1000+RWHP? Really? Did you put some new stickers on the car? :P

I know the struggle...pointless to compare data when it's under different ambient conditions let alone after heat soaking events. You could modify the math so you compensate for pressure/temperature at each sensor and then take the averages over many different instances of data in your current state. Then when you get dyno time you can do a more comparitive approach with a short window of data. I prefer the dyno but I feel like you're already working on getting one so...time will tell :P

1020 on 80% no thrills ethanol with a slipping clutch so we had to stop mapping...needed a new pressure plate as 4 years of abuse had worn half the fingers on the old one. I drove 500+ miles on it now and it's holding all of it so now I need to get it on the dyno and finish tuning...still on the old low comp/stock HG/non-ported stock head...new high comp/cutring/fully ported head is ready to go but I'll squeeze another season out of this ragged motor for now. Will be interesting to throw some Ignite Red fuel into it too...

And no stickers...you know I still get groceries in this thing...

[Def]

BTW - is your inlet temp sensor before or after your injection location pre-turbo? You might be measuring the wet bulb if it's after, in which case you'll see roughly similar performance with WI on or off since it'll just be whatever vaporization is going on in the compressor itself through temp rise and the water's absorption of the heat energy vs. the large mass of air. The initial injection is going to see a very large amount of heat energy extracted out of the air, so you need to measure temps before that.

Looking at your logs, looks like you might be measuring temps after injection site as evidenced by the large increase in temp between shifts when injection is suspended. You really shouldn't see much of a rise of actual air temp in that period.

[5271990]

Back to data.

I wanted to look at something that nobody has dug into here: The affects of pre-compressor water/meth injection on mass flow through the turbo, and temperature differential. In theory, injecting water into the compressor is supposed to increase it's adiabatic efficiency, increasing mass flow. Being that I have the ability to accurately log mass flow, pressure, and temp, I thought it would be easy.

It is not so easy.

....

Years ago straight water injection was used pre-turbo as it cooled the discharge enough to let you run the turbo off the compressor map.
Giving you the responsiveness of a small turbo but able to get to higher levels of flow.

Works great in theory but turbos soon became highly consumable items especially when used in conjunction with Group N style anti lag.....