E46 330i Automatic - M54B30 Turbo

[PEI330Ci]

you are so full of it



That's because e30polak is always full of it

Please take this to PM.

[chikinhed]

We need a BF.com octagon to settle these issues.

[5271990]

Adam, what's the foreseeable goals for the project?
600ft lbs?
10's?
150mph trap?

Its well documented that the Stock driveline is a limiting factor, even if it works they all become consumable parts from the flywheel back but being
e46 at least you have the option of the e46 m3 210mm diff and subframe bolting straight in if its needed.

[PEI330Ci]

For those with in-depth technical knowledge of turbos:

Why does the mass flow of the compressor map show nearly double the flow of the turbine map?

How exactly should one be reading a turbine map?

My ECU is calculating exhaust mass flow over 60 lb/hr, but the turbine map is showing a peak flow of 26 Lb/hr with a 1.06 A/R housing.

[PEI330Ci]

Adam, what's the foreseeable goals for the project?
600ft lbs?
10's?
150mph trap?

Its well documented that the Stock driveline is a limiting factor, even if it works they all become consumable parts from the flywheel back but being
e46 at least you have the option of the e46 m3 210mm diff and subframe bolting straight in if its needed.

The goal is to have a street car that is drag strip capable on pump fuel. For me that means full use of the interior, so no roll cage. That limits me to an 11.50 and 134 MPH.

At 3600 Lbs one would need 450 crank HP to run an 11.5 @ 117 MPH, but my chassis/powertrain (and the driver) isn't that efficient. The 118.5 MPH I've already run tells me that at WG pressure I have roughly 470 crank HP. With improved short times, and more RPM (I was soft limiting at 6800), I probably have a 12.1 in the car, so I realistically need 550 hp to get to an 11.5?

500rwtq would cover it....so that is probably a realistic goal without blowing up transmissions or differentials. (I hope!) I would really like to spend more time driving the car, and less time working on it....

[Def]

For those with in-depth technical knowledge of turbos:

Why does the mass flow of the compressor map show nearly double the flow of the turbine map?

How exactly should one be reading a turbine map?

My ECU is calculating exhaust mass flow over 60 lb/hr, but the turbine map is showing a peak flow of 26 Lb/hr with a 1.06 A/R housing.

The "turbine map" that is published is pretty useless. You'd really want to see a map similar to a compressor map that also equates RPM with shaft HP/torque and what those efficiency islands are. Essentially the only info you can really gleam from what's published is that you can plot where the CORRECTED FLOW starts choking (going sonic in the smallest nozzle area of the turbine). That doesn't mean the flow "flatlines" - just that the corrected flow (which is corrected to sea level and 59 deg F I believe, been a while since I've corrected airflow). Actual airflow can be very different, and will still go up as you increase pressure and density. But this also shows why your turbine inlet pressure slowly ramps up, then goes linear with increasing RPM right around the time the WG opens. Linear increasing pressure in a choked flow condition = linear increasing flow. When you translate those actual conditions to corrected flow, it shows as a flat line (the increasing pressure and increasing flow get cancelled out - so it won't increase forward).

The "peak efficiency" number is kinda worthless as well, as an application that we know performs poorly with a huge compressor/turbine mismatch might just skim a high efficiency island for one brief period, but be pretty crappy anytime you actually need high-ish efficiency (i.e. midrange/high RPM full boost).

Also keep in mind that roughly 40-50% of your turbine flow is wastegated in a typical high performance application. If you had 0% flow wastegated, you'd have a monster turbine and probably never hit your boost target.

[pbonsalb]

The goal is to have a street car that is drag strip capable on pump fuel. For me that means full use of the interior, so no roll cage. That limits me to an 11.50 and 134 MPH.

At 3600 Lbs one would need 450 crank HP to run an 11.5 @ 117 MPH, but my chassis/powertrain (and the driver) isn't that efficient. The 118.5 MPH I've already run tells me that at WG pressure I have roughly 470 crank HP. With improved short times, and more RPM (I was soft limiting at 6800), I probably have a 12.1 in the car, so I realistically need 550 hp to get to an 11.5?

500rwtq would cover it....so that is probably a realistic goal without blowing up transmissions or differentials. (I hope!) I would really like to spend more time driving the car, and less time working on it....

I would try to overshoot your 550/500 target by about 10% when sizing your next turbo. Aim for 600/550 on a Dynojet in SAE. I was around there with the GT3582R and running 11.6, 11.7 in the 132, 133, 134 range. Better driving could have gotten low 11s, but probably not more trap. Car was around 3500 lbs with me in it. You probably will break stuff on the strip if you are hooking up, like driveshaft, diff output stubs, maybe the ZF320, maybe the 188mm diff, maybe an axle, but you have addressed some of those potential weaknesses already. If you are comfortable running bias ply slicks, you would probably break less stuff. I never tried them, but understand they can be squirmy and I have experienced enough unexpected movement with drag radials on a not always perfectly prepped track to not be interested in slicks.

[PEI330Ci]

The "turbine map" that is published is pretty useless. You'd really want to see a map similar to a compressor map that also equates RPM with shaft HP/torque and what those efficiency islands are. Essentially the only info you can really gleam from what's published is that you can plot where the CORRECTED FLOW starts choking (going sonic in the smallest nozzle area of the turbine). That doesn't mean the flow "flatlines" - just that the corrected flow (which is corrected to sea level and 59 deg F I believe, been a while since I've corrected airflow). Actual airflow can be very different, and will still go up as you increase pressure and density. But this also shows why your turbine inlet pressure slowly ramps up, then goes linear with increasing RPM right around the time the WG opens. Linear increasing pressure in a choked flow condition = linear increasing flow. When you translate those actual conditions to corrected flow, it shows as a flat line (the increasing pressure and increasing flow get cancelled out - so it won't increase forward).

The "peak efficiency" number is kinda worthless as well, as an application that we know performs poorly with a huge compressor/turbine mismatch might just skim a high efficiency island for one brief period, but be pretty crappy anytime you actually need high-ish efficiency (i.e. midrange/high RPM full boost).

Also keep in mind that roughly 40-50% of your turbine flow is wastegated in a typical high performance application. If you had 0% flow wastegated, you'd have a monster turbine and probably never hit your boost target.

Thanks for the explanation. I have yet to see anyone correlate the turbine maps to any useful math....

I would try to overshoot your 550/500 target by about 10% when sizing your next turbo. Aim for 600/550 on a Dynojet in SAE. I was around there with the GT3582R and running 11.6, 11.7 in the 132, 133, 134 range. Better driving could have gotten low 11s, but probably not more trap. Car was around 3500 lbs with me in it. You probably will break stuff on the strip if you are hooking up, like driveshaft, diff output stubs, maybe the ZF320, maybe the 188mm diff, maybe an axle, but you have addressed some of those potential weaknesses already. If you are comfortable running bias ply slicks, you would probably break less stuff. I never tried them, but understand they can be squirmy and I have experienced enough unexpected movement with drag radials on a not always perfectly prepped track to not be interested in slicks.

I was OK with driving on them, but I feel like it was just a matter of time before I got a scare:



The Hoosiers radials I'm using now I'm a LOT more comfortable with. I've had them spin a fair amount off the line, and a little bit going into second gear. (rather spin a little than be breaking stuff.) The half shafts are DSS 1000hp pieces. The Differential is mounted differently on the E46, so I don't see any of the problems the E36 guys do. The only issues I had were related to the output stubs.....and my recent diff issue is not something I would call "breakage". The driveshaft is the only remaining weak link, and I've got one on order to solve that issue over the long run.

If I start shooting for 10s, I think I'll be breaking stuff.

[TheJuggernaut]

(rather spin a little than be breaking stuff.)

I'm not a drag racing expert so I base this on no experience but I think spinning is the cause for a lot of the breakages. If it was just smoothly spinning in place that would be one thing but what's really happening is periodic loading and unloading, from tire movement alone but also since I doubt many guys here spend a lot of time and money on good dampers and tuning them, add axle hop to that and the inertial impact forces on the components are much higher than the static torque being transmitted from the engine via a dead hook, which is what's really twizzlering driveshafts and axles.

[Def]

Thanks for the explanation. I have yet to see anyone correlate the turbine maps to any useful math....

Check out the Borg Warner MatchBot. You can play with parameters and see how it adjusts the points on the turbine map they provide to get an idea how things change through the rev band.

[Butters Stoch]

Spinning helps with breakage 4 sure. But costs you valuable et.
Also unless running a small turbo, then if you light the top of 1st, when you shift you bog. The trick is to get into boost and have boost ready after every shift. When I was chasing my 10 second pass, I was hitting 11.0X-11.29 consistently. Pass after pass. Finally frustrated, I went back and reviewed data logs. Trap speed was there, consistently 135-137 but I couldn't break into the 10's. My then setup was 666 bottom mount with 6466, spool was less then desirable. What I found was at the very top of 1st gear I was spinning. Tires felt like dead hook, I was ripping out the hole hard, 60's were 1.7-1.9 always. But at the very top of 1st I was slightly spinning. This in return put me around say 3700 or 3900 in 2nd gear, well I was slightly bogging. Of course this is tough to feel cause the car felt like a rocket ship and was hardly noticeable. But it was happening. Those 100-200 rpms below boost threshold were keeping me from hitting target. After realizing this, next trip to the waterbox was a lengthy stay. I used all my travelers miles this time and cooked them drag radials like Rachel Ray blowing lines right across the kitchen table. There it was, just what Martha Stewart ordered. Fried then Hoosiers up just like the black tar she cooked up in the clink.
Sometimes weather , track prep can be assumed great, you think your doing it all right, but its not good enough. I now understand why the old timers show no mercy on the tires, its not overkill, its insurance.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

^^^ Other option might have been to increase the rev limiter a few hundred RPM for the 1-2 shift

[Butters Stoch]

^^^ Other option might have been to increase the rev limiter a few hundred RPM for the 1-2 shift

Yes, but if it spins , you back to bog land anyway. I don't think this will be a problem anymore with the new manifold. Drag racing is surely a lot to learn.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Spinning isn't too much of an issue.. you're still accelerating.. it's the extra time

But yes, it's not easy like some people think... "oh you're just driving straight shifting gears, how hard is that"

[dburt86]

What are the tire and wheel specs on the car above?

I want to fit a 11.5 wide Bias ply, on paper, its close, but would require a 6-6.5inch back spacing and thats not easy to find unless you buy Welds.

[wazzu70]

Thanks for the explanation. I have yet to see anyone correlate the turbine maps to any useful math....

Yeah as Def mentioned the maps you see are not the true turbine maps, those look more like the compressor map. Since the turbine is the secret sauce companies are reluctant to publish it.

If you look at the 1.06A/R housing on the GTX35 you can see it flows about 35lb/min and the turbine housing is usually the same between GT30 and GT35. The GT30 turbine is just way too much restriction. This is also why you hear people say not to just look at the compressor map and that a GTX3576 is a better pairing than GTX3076R to actually use the compressor wheel.

[ColtonBH]

I'll work on getting the dyno graphs. No need for me to lie, these were Mustang dyno numbers. Dyno may have read high, every dyno reads differently.

I love how you have nothing better to do than quote my replies, you're the one that's full of yourself...everyone here knows that.

Mustang Dyno explains it. The actual torque is probably in the mid 400s XD

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[PEI330Ci]

I'm not a drag racing expert so I base this on no experience but I think spinning is the cause for a lot of the breakages. If it was just smoothly spinning in place that would be one thing but what's really happening is periodic loading and unloading, from tire movement alone but also since I doubt many guys here spend a lot of time and money on good dampers and tuning them, add axle hop to that and the inertial impact forces on the components are much higher than the static torque being transmitted from the engine via a dead hook, which is what's really twizzlering driveshafts and axles.

Agreed. But on the black car, I was running dialled-in Motons and never had issues. On this car, I've got a little bit of wheel hop but I'm still tuning the MCS dampers.

Check out the Borg Warner MatchBot. You can play with parameters and see how it adjusts the points on the turbine map they provide to get an idea how things change through the rev band.

I've spent a lot of time playing with that over the past few years. The issue I have is that it doesn't always explain the maths behind the number. It's worth another look though...

Spinning helps with breakage 4 sure. But costs you valuable et.
Also unless running a small turbo, then if you light the top of 1st, when you shift you bog. The trick is to get into boost and have boost ready after every shift. When I was chasing my 10 second pass, I was hitting 11.0X-11.29 consistently. Pass after pass. Finally frustrated, I went back and reviewed data logs. Trap speed was there, consistently 135-137 but I couldn't break into the 10's. My then setup was 666 bottom mount with 6466, spool was less then desirable. What I found was at the very top of 1st gear I was spinning. Tires felt like dead hook, I was ripping out the hole hard, 60's were 1.7-1.9 always. But at the very top of 1st I was slightly spinning. This in return put me around say 3700 or 3900 in 2nd gear, well I was slightly bogging. Of course this is tough to feel cause the car felt like a rocket ship and was hardly noticeable. But it was happening. Those 100-200 rpms below boost threshold were keeping me from hitting target. After realizing this, next trip to the waterbox was a lengthy stay. I used all my travelers miles this time and cooked them drag radials like Rachel Ray blowing lines right across the kitchen table. There it was, just what Martha Stewart ordered. Fried then Hoosiers up just like the black tar she cooked up in the clink.
Sometimes weather , track prep can be assumed great, you think your doing it all right, but its not good enough. I now understand why the old timers show no mercy on the tires, its not overkill, its insurance.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned slip models. Tires give optimum grip when there is a certain percentage of slip. Street tires and "R" compounds have a range from approximately 8 to 14% of slip to give optimum traction. Depending on the tire, going beyond that can be a cliff or a linear curve. Drag tires are different. The tires on Top Fuel cars have optimum slip rates of over 25%, and varies depending on how the tire is loaded. (Downforce) For a bias ply drag slick that we might use, you might find that a slip rate over 14% was optimal. So I would caution people on observed wheel speeds vs ground speed to evaluate G-Force data before making any conclusions.

If you have the ability, putting a shift indicator based on ground speed for first gear might be useful....but most drivers figure that out by "feel".

^^^ Other option might have been to increase the rev limiter a few hundred RPM for the 1-2 shift

I've often found that first gear needs all the RPM you can give it. The torque multiplication of that ratio, always seems to so much much higher than 2nd gear, that it makes sense to hang on until the valve train pukes. Unless you're running a PG or TH400....then disregard...

What are the tire and wheel specs on the car above?

I want to fit a 11.5 wide Bias ply, on paper, its close, but would require a 6-6.5inch back spacing and thats not easy to find unless you buy Welds.

That was a custom 16 X 9.5" wheel, with MT 26 X 10.5 ET Street bias ply tires. You can't get those tires anymore...they have moved most of the cheater DOT stuff to radials.

Yeah as Def mentioned the maps you see are not the true turbine maps, those look more like the compressor map. Since the turbine is the secret sauce companies are reluctant to publish it.

If you look at the 1.06A/R housing on the GTX35 you can see it flows about 35lb/min and the turbine housing is usually the same between GT30 and GT35. The GT30 turbine is just way too much restriction. This is also why you hear people say not to just look at the compressor map and that a GTX3576 is a better pairing than GTX3076R to actually use the compressor wheel.

I think the 68/62mm turbine from the GT35 would be a good match for the GTX 58mm compressor wheel. I'm not looking for a high inlet manifold pressure, I'm looking for high mass-flow through my engine. Building manifold pressure up because of exhaust back pressure is pointless.....

[E36Mylo]

Way out of my realm here but instead of going back to the drawing board over and over why don't you just keep practicing? I went from a 13.0 to an 11.3 just practicing and learning how to drive the shit out of my car. 2.2 60' to a 1.6 60' learning how to launch off the handbrake. Never raised the boost, was on pump 93 the whole time. And I'm on a small 6262 with a 63 back housing. I honestly think you're looking too much into the numbers and stuff. Just go race and practice. You'll know when you need to upgrade.

[PEI330Ci]

Way out of my realm here but instead of going back to the drawing board over and over why don't you just keep practicing? I went from a 13.0 to an 11.3 just practicing and learning how to drive the shit out of my car. 2.2 60' to a 1.6 60' learning how to launch off the handbrake. Never raised the boost, was on pump 93 the whole time. And I'm on a small 6262 with a 63 back housing. I honestly think you're looking too much into the numbers and stuff. Just go race and practice. You'll know when you need to upgrade.

I make big smoke:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7F5TdB06kM

I practice big smoke.

[E36Mylo]

That's cute.. I remember my first burnout. If only you put as much emphasis towards your 60' than big smokey burnouts huh?

https://youtu.be/KSRCVs1VLVc

[PEI330Ci]

Big smoke help ET:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R9h...M&spfreload=10

3200lbs

415rwhp


Practice is good.

[E36Mylo]

Big smoke help ET:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R9h...M&spfreload=10

3200lbs

415rwhp

Practice is good.

Living in the past isn't going to help you with the problem at hand. What good is bragging about old videos when I can just walk out to my garage and go run a high 10- low 11 right now if I wanted instead of showing people almost decade old videos? That 11.58 would've got you a nice picture of my taillights as well so what's the point of that? Oh and I'm on medium boost on pump 93 at 3365lbs with a huge spoiler. Lol

[PEI330Ci]

That's cute.. I remember my first burnout. If only you put as much emphasis towards your 60' than big smokey burnouts huh?

I did, and broke a lot of stuff. In the end I settled on rolling out softly with 1.7 sec 60fts to keep things alive.

You're comments are relevant, but you're preaching to the choir.

- - - Updated - - -

Living in the past isn't going to help you with the problem at hand. What good is bragging about old videos when I can just walk out to my garage and go run a high 10- low 11 right now if I wanted instead of showing people almost decade old videos? That 11.58 would've got you a nice picture of my taillights as well so what's the point of that? Oh and I'm on medium boost on pump 93 at 3365lbs with a huge spoiler. Lol

I would call those cheap shots if you knew why I haven't raced in a while......

Obviously, you don't.

[E36Mylo]

I did, and broke a lot of stuff. In the end I settled on rolling out softly with 1.7 sec 60fts to keep things alive.

You're comments are relevant, but you're preaching to the choir.

- - - Updated - - -

I would call those cheap shots if you knew why I haven't raced in a while......

Obviously, you don't.

My car's left the track on a tow bed more times than most people here even go to a track. I went through 3 driveshafts, 3 diff bolts, diff covers and other stuff in less than a year. Not trying to take cheap shots. Just find it weird you think your problem is with turbo selections and other issues. I'm on a base map on stock dme and never even been on a dyno. Until you're cutting 1.xx 60' and consistent times, why would you ever blame the car's power or components?