E46 330i Automatic - M54B30 Turbo

[PEI330Ci]

Holy cow there is no timing at all in there. I don't know how it could be possibly knocking at those timing numbers with that much meth in it

Exactly, which is why I'm getting rid of the solid mounts.

I pulled the plugs to see if I was killing anything...and it's clearly not the case.

91 octane fuel isn't so strong though...

[PEI330Ci]

Do you know roughly what percentage water meth you are injecting relative to fuel, either by volume or weight? And what percentage water to meth are you running

I'm running Boost Juice, so a 50/50 mix.

The PWM ramp that I currently have in the car results in about 14% WM injection vs fuel on the manifold injection side. (Based on CC/min) This seems reasonable based on accepted norms....




I haven't worked up the maths channels for the pre-turbo injection, but that's possibly where too much is being injected. The data above was from a test drive yesterday where I had the WI system turned on, but the pump turned off. This was so that I could see the effect of running no W/M on the knock signal, but still log how the WI system calculations were working.

[PEI330Ci]

BTW...the lines are wiggly because I set the calculations on the maths channels to 50 hz, and everything else is tracking a 100 hz signal from manifold pressure.

[PEI330Ci]

Yup, I've got way too much W/A being injected!!!

The combined pre-turbo/Manifold injection is at 23% at 4k RPM, ramping up to 30% at 6800 RPM. And it keeps ramping higher with RPM over that point.

I'm reducing the duty cycles on both pre-turbo and manifold injection to target 7% pre-turbo, and 10% at the manifold for a combined 17% of injector duty cycle at any RPM or load.

[Butters Stoch]

Yup, I've got way too much W/A being injected!!!

The combined pre-turbo/Manifold injection is at 23% at 4k RPM, ramping up to 30% at 6800 RPM. And it keeps ramping higher with RPM over that point.

I'm reducing the duty cycles on both pre-turbo and manifold injection to target 7% pre-turbo, and 10% at the manifold for a combined 17% of injector duty cycle at any RPM or load.

I've been wondering if I've been spraying a little too much. I'm around 1200cc. 140 per cylinder and the rest prethrottle. Do you have any insight on power loss when using too much ? I haven't had any issues running this much, might be overkill but I don't have the smart ECU like you do, so gotta play it safe.

I'm running 70/30 meth/water

[pbonsalb]

I use 70/30 meth/water, following fuel injector duty cycle (and starting flow at about 40% duty cycle). 6x140cc jets = 840cc water/meth potential. 6x680cc injectors = 4100cc fuel potential. 840/4100 is about 20%. I am guessing I am hitting 90% duty cycle at around 21 psi, and that is probably about 700 rwhp, but have not measured or dyno'ed.

[PEI330Ci]

I've been wondering if I've been spraying a little too much. I'm around 1200cc. 140 per cylinder and the rest prethrottle. Do you have any insight on power loss when using too much ? I haven't had any issues running this much, might be overkill but I don't have the smart ECU like you do, so gotta play it safe.

I'm running 70/30 meth/water

The M1 ECU is pulling fuel out to meet the lambda target using closed loop fuel control, but I don't know that other ECUs will do this. Running too rich is more likely to cause a drop in power than injecting too much fluid with the meth/water ratio you are running.

A dyno would be a useful tool to figure this out....

I use 70/30 meth/water, following fuel injector duty cycle (and starting flow at about 40% duty cycle). 6x140cc jets = 840cc water/meth potential. 6x680cc injectors = 4100cc fuel potential. 840/4100 is about 20%. I am guessing I am hitting 90% duty cycle at around 21 psi, and that is probably about 700 rwhp, but have not measured or dyno'ed.

Is you're water/meth potential based on subtracting manifold pressure from the pump output pressure?

[pbonsalb]

I think I calculated output at 140 psi, subtracting 20 psi boost from 160 psi pump maximum, but will double check. Roughly, I think 10-20% is good. Have been running aquamist systems since 2001, at first under 10%. Last few years a little higher -- a 1.0 mm then a 1.2 mm jet and now 6 jets all 0.4 mm for a little more flow potential. I will look for the flow chart. Here it is:

https://urdusa.com/store/Water-/-Met...duct_info.html

[PEI330Ci]

I think I calculated output at 140 psi, subtracting 20 psi boost from 160 psi pump maximum, but will double check. Roughly, I think 10-20% is good. Have been running aquamist systems since 2001, at first under 10%. Last few years a little higher -- a 1.0 mm then a 1.2 mm jet and now 6 jets all 0.4 mm for a little more flow potential. I will look for the flow chart. Here it is:

https://urdusa.com/store/Water-/-Met...duct_info.html

That's the table I use in the M1. (and in i2)

I have inputs for pressure on both pre-turbo injection, and manifold injection, but I haven't plumbed those sensors yet. In i2, I've generated maths channels to fill in for this. I start with 155 PSI,(5 PSI assumed drop in distribution) subtract absolute manifold pressure, then use a 2D lookup table to generate the total flow potential of each jet.

I also have a flow sensor plumbed into the system, but I haven't configured the electronics side of that yet.

To meaningfully analyse the pre turbo injection, I need to have turbine speed. The sensor I've installed, I haven't been able to get to work. I suspect that I might have damaged it, so I've ordered a completely new sensor and pre-amp that I'll be installing when I change the engine mounts.

On that front, I done working on the car for a little bit. (Work, and family plans)

[wazzu70]

Is it possible to just run the car on pump now? Get that fueling all dialed in and then add the meth injection? Maybe thats what you did, but just thought I would ask Its easy to get excited and go all in, but it makes tuning incredibly difficult.

[PEI330Ci]

Is it possible to just run the car on pump now? Get that fueling all dialed in and then add the meth injection? Maybe thats what you did, but just thought I would ask Its easy to get excited and go all in, but it makes tuning incredibly difficult.

Already done; the fuelling from 4k RPM to 8k RPM is dialled in at 15 PSI with very little closed loop compensation.

I've also done back to back pulls in 3rd gear with the WM injection on and off to check the difference.

Admittedly, I've put up very little data from my testing, but that is because I was focused on spending my time gathering and understanding data rather than taking screenshots....

Now that I'm away from the car for a bit, I'll have a chance to catch up on data analysis, and posting about it.

[Butters Stoch]

How heavy is your track enforcing the rules? Ours here in NH are getting pretty tough. Since they became a NHRA track, they are cracking down pretty hard. I've been in the 135+mph range for the last 3 years, this year they want all kinds of goodies for 135+mph. Engine diaper, trans blanket, certified cage etc etc. I could live with the fire jacket, even the harness. But I can't turn my DD into a trailer queen. Seems like maybe keeping the car at 134.9mph and 11.51 et is best. But having the covenant 10 second slip with a stick and a daily driver is where its at.

[someguy2800]

If they are asking for a trans blanket and engine diaper then they are dumbasses and have no idea what they are talking about. Trans blankets only apply to automatic transmissions and engine diapers are not needed til 7.50 ET.

http://promod.nhra.com/userfiles/fil...%20Section.pdf

[PEI330Ci]

How heavy is your track enforcing the rules? Ours here in NH are getting pretty tough. Since they became a NHRA track, they are cracking down pretty hard. I've been in the 135+mph range for the last 3 years, this year they want all kinds of goodies for 135+mph. Engine diaper, trans blanket, certified cage etc etc. I could live with the fire jacket, even the harness. But I can't turn my DD into a trailer queen. Seems like maybe keeping the car at 134.9mph and 11.51 et is best. But having the covenant 10 second slip with a stick and a daily driver is where its at.

NHRA rules apply.

While my goal was to stay clear of an 11.49/134 mph, at 120 MPH on the big end I'd hate to have a problem and not have the safety equipment....

Once a roll bar goes in, my son can't ride in the car...and that was kinda the point of keeping it a street car.

[Butters Stoch]

If they are asking for a trans blanket and engine diaper then they are dumbasses and have no idea what they are talking about. Trans blankets only apply to automatic transmissions and engine diapers are not needed til 7.50 ET.

http://promod.nhra.com/userfiles/fil...%20Section.pdf

Full Cage at 135+
Window net
Battery shut off
Neck collar
Helmet
Fire jacket
Harness
Etc

Its the "full certified cage" that will quickly ruin street car.
Just helped Greg get his all certified. He now only needs license. He has an auto and 9.99 second pass. But they told me rules will apply to those running 135+. I see what he goes through just to make a pass. I had much more fun hot lapping at 125-128 with my 35r and a M52. Seatbelt and a helmet. It was great.

[rajicase]

Full Cage at 135+
Window net
Battery shut off
Neck collar
Helmet
Fire jacket
Harness
Etc

Its the "full certified cage" that will quickly ruin street car.
Just helped Greg get his all certified. He now only needs license. He has an auto and 9.99 second pass. But they told me rules will apply to those running 135+. I see what he goes through just to make a pass. I had much more fun hot lapping at 125-128 with my 35r and a M52. Seatbelt and a helmet. It was great.

This is why the street is so much fun.. none of this shit to deal with.

[PEI330Ci]

Here are the exhaust pulses I was talking about earlier:



...and I've most certainly got an exhaust back pressure issue with this turbo/housing combination:



I'm speculating here, but the knock that I do think that I'm seeing is possibly caused by high exhaust back pressure. (Exhaust bleeding back into combustion chamber while valve is closing)

[PEI330Ci]

Exhaust backpressure histogram:



I have yet to work on Camshaft timing with the VANOS, but I think I'm over-driving this turbo and need to look at something bigger....

[wazzu70]

Are the exhaust pulses raw or filtered? It might make more sense to have a 3 sample moving average as P3 values are going to fluctuate a lot by nature. Raw data is still helpful if you are looking at peak values or individual pulses.

Im not surprised the GT30 is too restrictive on the exhaust side. That turbine just seems way too small for the amount of exhaust flow the engine generates. Im curious to be proven if its too big/small with some data though

[someguy2800]

Full Cage at 135+
Window net
Battery shut off
Neck collar
Helmet
Fire jacket
Harness
Etc

Its the "full certified cage" that will quickly ruin street car.
Just helped Greg get his all certified. He now only needs license. He has an auto and 9.99 second pass. But they told me rules will apply to those running 135+. I see what he goes through just to make a pass. I had much more fun hot lapping at 125-128 with my 35r and a M52. Seatbelt and a helmet. It was great.

The cage does not need to be certified until 9.99 so you don't have to go through the nhra inspection and certification on the cage. If you run the front bars through the dash and removable door bars the cage does not intrude on your space whatsoever. In any case I get where you are coming from and life is much easier at below 135 and above 10. I would actually like to build a C10 pickup someday to run high tens on street legal nights just to make things simple.

[PEI330Ci]

Are the exhaust pulses raw or filtered? It might make more sense to have a 3 sample moving average as P3 values are going to fluctuate a lot by nature. Raw data is still helpful if you are looking at peak values or individual pulses.

Im not surprised the GT30 is too restrictive on the exhaust side. That turbine just seems way too small for the amount of exhaust flow the engine generates. Im curious to be proven if its too big/small with some data though

Exhaust pressure is read at the input pin @ 100 hz, then down-sampled to 50 hz for use by the ECU. Logging is at 50 hz for Bank 1 and Bank 2, then the combined average of the 2 is read to "Exhaust Pressure" which is logged at 10 hz. I can set the logging rate of any of these points to whatever I want. Also, the Bank 1 and Bank 2 inputs can be filtered anywhere from 0.1ms up to 10,000ms. So that's the data acquisition side. On the viewing side, I can set moving averages of whatever I want, even applying a low-pass filter if needed. Averaging the raw values sampled at 50 hz every 3 seconds doesn't do much to the trend...in fact, averaging by 100 samples, and combining both traces results in pretty much the same thing.

Something I've not dug into is the VANOS setup. (I copied the setup file from another source) Looking at the data, I don't have the correct offset applied to the position lock, so my cam position doesn't line up with the Camshaft specs. (Just number wise) But........I think I have the exhaust camshaft sitting in a retarded state at all RPMs...which would hurt spool...and secondly, I think that the movement of the exhaust cam is inverted. Increasing the idle position (In theory advancing) actually hurts idle stability. Also, since I locked the cam positions in their current state, I've never been able to get the car to spool to 10 PSI under 3300 RPM.....

[dburt86]

Its insane to think that with timing values that you have and the timing marks on the plugs.

Was the pics of the plugs with or with out water/meth?

[Def]

You're running a GTX3076R right? If my hazy memory is correct, then I'm not surprised you have EBP issues. The GTX3076R is probably the most mismatched turbo Garrett has put out in a while. The compressor has the drive power requirements of the older 82 mm cast wheel on the GT3582R (which was already compressor biased as Garrett likes to do), at about the same RPM (so torque requirements are about the same), and the 60 mm UHP turbine wheel just can't keep up.

It's always off its peak efficiency area because it's having to extract so much shaft power out of the exhaust at an RPM that it's just not happy with. But even if you could still add an extra 10-15k RPM, it'd still be choking the exhaust flow, just a little less than it is.


This is pretty common on Garretts, and why especially the GTX compressor wheels see a huge benefit in jumping to the next size turbine (i.e. GT3576R etc.). But they'll still be a little under-turbined, so they do tend to make a decent bit of EBP.


I can say that EBP will absolutely kill the total timing you can run on pump gas, even with some water/meth in my experience. Cylinder temps and pressures just rise too high with the higher pressure, and you are always fighting with trying to get the exhaust out, and getting a valve timing that works well at the short durations when RPMs rise.

[PEI330Ci]

Its insane to think that with timing values that you have and the timing marks on the plugs.

Was the pics of the plugs with or with out water/meth?

Some of the previous run was doing pulls with Water/meth.

You're running a GTX3076R right? If my hazy memory is correct, then I'm not surprised you have EBP issues. The GTX3076R is probably the most mismatched turbo Garrett has put out in a while. The compressor has the drive power requirements of the older 82 mm cast wheel on the GT3582R (which was already compressor biased as Garrett likes to do), at about the same RPM (so torque requirements are about the same), and the 60 mm UHP turbine wheel just can't keep up.

It's always off its peak efficiency area because it's having to extract so much shaft power out of the exhaust at an RPM that it's just not happy with. But even if you could still add an extra 10-15k RPM, it'd still be choking the exhaust flow, just a little less than it is.


This is pretty common on Garretts, and why especially the GTX compressor wheels see a huge benefit in jumping to the next size turbine (i.e. GT3576R etc.). But they'll still be a little under-turbined, so they do tend to make a decent bit of EBP.


I can say that EBP will absolutely kill the total timing you can run on pump gas, even with some water/meth in my experience. Cylinder temps and pressures just rise too high with the higher pressure, and you are always fighting with trying to get the exhaust out, and getting a valve timing that works well at the short durations when RPMs rise.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

I agree with you completely.

Currently looking for a bigger turbo. (6870 is at the top of my list)

[Butters Stoch]

Some of the previous run was doing pulls with Water/meth.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

I agree with you completely.

Currently looking for a bigger turbo. (6870 is at the top of my list)

Seeing how the 6466 spools with your manifold, 6870 wouldn't be all the laggy. For under 750whp tho, Id choose the 6466 or its just wasting powerband.