Mike's "Vanilla Gorilla" M3 V2.0 Build

[NEDD]

If you rebuilding the LSD, why not change the ramps angle? This is how I did mine, plus 4 friction disc. It will give you around 70% lock on accel. and the diff will act like 1.5 way. I set may kind a loose, so when you lift it unlocks (kind of) and it doesnt try to spin you over. The control is outstanding compared to welded diff.

[TheJuggernaut]

Even better would be to cut new ramps so you have about 30/90 angles, so on decel there is no lock. But with 4 discs and 45 it will still be great.

One thing though, how did you re-harden the new ramps after you cut them?

[NEDD]

I didn't. They are so hard, it takes a very special tool to do it. After they're done, we tested them for hardness - the cut was as hard as the untouched ramp.

[wanganstyle]

Winters if you have $$$

Yup. Best solution possible is a quick change; all the formula D cars locally are going to them

[wanganstyle]

I didn't. They are so hard, it takes a very special tool to do it. After they're done, we tested them for hardness - the cut was as hard as the untouched ramp.

Not with the correct tools;

Industrial Rockwell tester shows surface to be 59-60 hardness and underneath 29-30.

You also cut ramps on top of the stock; this is no good.

This is a ramp from a unit I tore down for a local client; I did not build it and don't really want to know who did.

note the round cut from the crossbars in the untreated new ramp. The crossbars are 60 Rockwell; +the 30 Rockwell cut untreated ramp = crossbar makes its own ramp lol

Terrible.

[TheJuggernaut]

Not with the correct tools;

Industrial Rockwell tester shows surface to be 59-60 hardness and underneath 29-30.

You also cut ramps on top of the stock; this is no good.

Yeah, I was also hoping it was this easy but it's not.

[BimmerBoy]

I have not seen anyone else use the windage tray with the s54 oil pan/pump before. I had thought about it but came to the conclusion that of the s54 doesn't use one then it's not required. The pan itself is the windage tray.

Sent from my GTX3582R

I believe this is correct, I have installed an s54 oil pump and pan onto an m5X block and did not end up using the m5X windage tray as the s54 pan has the windage tray incorporated into itself.

[MikeE36]

210mm is the only way to go in terms of high power in these cars? High power/high abuse(drifting).

Not worth trying to use a quick change rear or some other domestic diff such as 9" with IRS?

Lots of guys go to a quick change in the pros. I'm not there yet, nor am I interested in constantly changing gear ratios per track at the moment. Thus far I've had more than enough power for any gear at any track. 90+mph towards the wall in NJ might require a quick change some day, but for now I'll stick with my 3.15. It's taken everything I can throw at it.

I think the 210 is beefier than a 9 inch.

Sent from my GTX3582R

Certainly is much simpler to install also. Axles/DS bolted right up. Just weld on the subframe bracket and cut out the front diff mount and you're good to go!

If you rebuilding the LSD, why not change the ramps angle? This is how I did mine, plus 4 friction disc. It will give you around 70% lock on accel. and the diff will act like 1.5 way. I set may kind a loose, so when you lift it unlocks (kind of) and it doesnt try to spin you over. The control is outstanding compared to welded diff.

As others have mentioned, the material is hardened steel and you cannot properly cut it down at home. I've been assured this will give me 50-60% lock on acceleration, as well as not drag in low speed corners. I use this car for both drift/road course so having the diff unlock at low speeds is nice to have still.

I believe this is correct, I have installed an s54 oil pump and pan onto an m5X block and did not end up using the m5X windage tray as the s54 pan has the windage tray incorporated into itself.

I think you guys are 100% right. The pan does have a windage tray essentially built in. I'll set it aside for another engine.

Mike

[TheJuggernaut]

I've been assured this will give me 50-60% lock on acceleration, as well as not drag in low speed corners. I use this car for both drift/road course so having the diff unlock at low speeds is nice to have still.

Not sure I believe this. I've done the same as you and this is my only concern. I just hope it's minor enough to not be a problem, or not a big enough one I can't get used to/drive around. With a 45 decel ramp, to not have the same 50-60% lock on decel, you'll have to turn in under some power, otherwise the engine braking will lock up the rear (which is why the popular recipe for the BMW racecars is 30/90 - ie 0 dynamic decel lock, only the preload). Although Carroll Smith writes that he favors a 50 degree decel ramp and no sedan should be running 85-90 like some recommend... I guess only real world experience will show.

[chikinhed]

I bought the Bimmerdiffs 210 mm four clutch kit but haven't installed it yet. I'd really like some feel back on how the car reacts on a road course with that kit installed. Most feedback on here is that the car goes straight while drag racing which is not useful info for me.

Sent from my GTX3582R

[NY98M3]

How often do the clutches need to be replaced on these? I always see guys rebuilding them

[BadBoostedBmwM3]

Damn! Very nice, Mike!


You have quite the vendor list. You must have a huge warehouse/shop, or is going to be all internet sales (meaning drop shipping)?


Either way, I'm glad to see it going well for you.
Btw, I see a few companies that have some good products for my new Powerstroke.

[MikeE36]

Not sure I believe this. I've done the same as you and this is my only concern. I just hope it's minor enough to not be a problem, or not a big enough one I can't get used to/drive around. With a 45 decel ramp, to not have the same 50-60% lock on decel, you'll have to turn in under some power, otherwise the engine braking will lock up the rear (which is why the popular recipe for the BMW racecars is 30/90 - ie 0 dynamic decel lock, only the preload). Although Carroll Smith writes that he favors a 50 degree decel ramp and no sedan should be running 85-90 like some recommend... I guess only real world experience will show.

I will report back my findings once I have it in some low speed corners and am trying to maintain traction For drifting this is not an issue but maybe a 2nd gear autocross U-turn I could see it possibly dragging the inside. It can't be any worse than my Nissan with a welded diff..

I bought the Bimmerdiffs 210 mm four clutch kit but haven't installed it yet. I'd really like some feel back on how the car reacts on a road course with that kit installed. Most feedback on here is that the car goes straight while drag racing which is not useful info for me.

Sent from my GTX3582R

I will report back as soon as the car is up for testing - We will be going to Harris Hill Raceway for some road course shakedown before any events so that will be the perfect time to learn the diff.

How often do the clutches need to be replaced on these? I always see guys rebuilding them

I pulled out my stock 2 clutches (which were original from the early 90s, back when this diff was in an E32 750i) and they seemed to have almost zero wear. I'm sure they were thinner by a few thousandths but they looked almost identical to the ones I just put in. You mainly see people rebuilding them because they are just refreshing the stock LSD unit and then just leaving it alone for a long time. I have been running a stock E32 750 diff since 2011 at 25% lockup and it worked excellent. Just trying to get more forward bite in the car, thus the rebuild. You probably only need to do it once for the lifespan of almost every car on the board (save for racecars that get rebuilt often - street cars, one time thing.)

Damn! Very nice, Mike!


You have quite the vendor list. You must have a huge warehouse/shop, or is going to be all internet sales (meaning drop shipping)?


Either way, I'm glad to see it going well for you.
Btw, I see a few companies that have some good products for my new Powerstroke.

We have both actually, but certainly not all of those lines in stock. It is mainly a drop ship focus, but we will be stocking some things (like SPA manifolds, AN line/fittings for locals, fuel pumps, etc. and more when we justify enough volume again - this is a relaunch/revision of a family business that had 6 parts locations in Austin for over 30 years. Now it's an online revamp with even more stuff, including much more of a performance focus.

If you need anything, or anyone would like a quote on something, feel free to email me: mike@vansparts.com I am working on supporting vendor status as we speak and spoke with Kevlar - just waiting to hear back in a few days from the right advertising people.

Mike

[rowleym]

Not with the correct tools;

Industrial Rockwell tester shows surface to be 59-60 hardness and underneath 29-30.

You also cut ramps on top of the stock; this is no good.

This is a ramp from a unit I tore down for a local client; I did not build it and don't really want to know who did.

note the round cut from the crossbars in the untreated new ramp. The crossbars are 60 Rockwell; +the 30 Rockwell cut untreated ramp = crossbar makes its own ramp lol

Terrible.

Do you have any more info on cutting ramp angles with a 188mm diff? Or any bmw diff for that matter? Or is it not worth rebuilding, and I should just go 210mm?

Rc 60 is very easy cut today with the proper tools. Especially if it's simply case hardened, rc 30, so maybe 4340 or some chromoly?

Anyways, it would be a neat project to learn about this and I could document it for people

[TheJuggernaut]

I will report back my findings once I have it in some low speed corners and am trying to maintain traction For drifting this is not an issue but maybe a 2nd gear autocross U-turn I could see it possibly dragging the inside. It can't be any worse than my Nissan with a welded diff..

I hear ya, that's why I'm not terribly worried about it either. My car isn't a full lock autocrosser either

[wanganstyle]

Not sure I believe this. I've done the same as you and this is my only concern. I just hope it's minor enough to not be a problem, or not a big enough one I can't get used to/drive around. With a 45 decel ramp, to not have the same 50-60% lock on decel, you'll have to turn in under some power, otherwise the engine braking will lock up the rear (which is why the popular recipe for the BMW racecars is 30/90 - ie 0 dynamic decel lock, only the preload). Although Carroll Smith writes that he favors a 50 degree decel ramp and no sedan should be running 85-90 like some recommend... I guess only real world experience will show.

BMW DTM and Factory Motorsports racing cars often utilize 2 way units that have MORE deccel lock up than accel. Drexler offers them; they obviously require specific footwork setting. 2 way allows "passive" braking of the rear tires only; some drivers can use this to preserve front tires. Obviously drive line wear in diff/driveshaft/CV's is increased

- - - Updated - - -

Do you have any more info on cutting ramp angles with a 188mm diff? Or any bmw diff for that matter? Or is it not worth rebuilding, and I should just go 210mm?

Rc 60 is very easy cut today with the proper tools. Especially if it's simply case hardened, rc 30, so maybe 4340 or some chromoly?

Anyways, it would be a neat project to learn about this and I could document it for people

I don't have information to give out about creating ramps; I don't suggest DIY types to mes with them; It takes a few tries to get them perfect......besides for the fact that the unit is very good out of the BMW factory in OEM form.
If one desires different ramp angles you should really BUY AN AFTERMARKET DIFF; they are really great for all the fancy shit if you really need it or have excessive money.

the 188mm and 210mm units have identical ramps standard; changing between them will net only a strength delta (and weight delta)
anything is easy to do with the proper tools+ proper engineers behind the process. It is a pretty specific alloy; if you are resourced in metallurgy than you should be able to figure this all out.

I hear ya, that's why I'm not terribly worried about it either. My car isn't a full lock autocrosser either

Auto crossers like 1 way units for various reasons; high locking 2 ways units are pretty terrible in autoX from my own trials; settings ideal for track, Drift or Tarmac rally (where max lock 2 ways is ideal if the car settings can adapt) is horrible for autox.

[TheJuggernaut]

BMW DTM and Factory Motorsports racing cars often 2 way units use MORE deccel lock up than accel. Drexler offers them; they obviously require specific footwork setting.

Neat, thanks!

[MikeE36]

Well it's 3:30 am here so I'm calling it quits for tonight. Got quite a few things accomplished and mocked up. I still need to get an ATI damper on order but I think that's the last piece of the engine puzzle. Here are some pictures from today's progress:

















More on Sunday! Off to Lonestar Drift Round 1 this weekend to spectate and hang out.

Mike

[MikeE36]

Mike

[stealthbeam]

I'm assuming you will have a cut out for the hood or no hood for this monster turbo?

[MikeE36]

I'm assuming you will have a cut out for the hood or no hood for this monster turbo?

The only holes in the hood should be for the downpipe exit and the upper wastegate dump. I'm hoping everything else will clear.

For now though I have problems with the uppipe and WG dump themselves. Looking at old mockup pictures from AR design, I can't see any ignition components on the head, and I'm also not sure how much they shaved down the valve cover, but I just cannot get the setup to fit like they did. Maybe I'm crazy. I think I'm going to have to pay my local fab guy to fix this though, which is pretty aggravating given how fancy and high quality these setups are supposed to be.



Looking at the above picture, I'm guessing the manifold is just not fully bolted down at the front because I can't fathom a way they could clear the head casting by that much considering how close mine is when bolted. It nearly touches in the center of the head, or does slightly..

I had both the uppipe and the wastegate pipe wrapped to help with keeping heat away from the ignition more, but I had to remove all of that just to see if that would make a difference in the fit by reducing the OD of the pipes. Still hopeless:





With the upper WG pipe directly on the ignition shield (no way I'm running it that way), the uppipe STILL won't fit flush with the turbine housing flange. Pretty lame.

Anyways I have a pretty good local fab guy that I hope can just redo the WG dump and run it on the other side of the uppipe.

To be continued!

Mike

Also yes I realize the center section is clocked 90* off. This turbo is only on for mockup. An EFR8374 or 9180 is going on for final fitment.

[ak5]

Mike, have you tried loosening the bolts on the turbo to see if it will pivot slightly to offset the DP?

[TheJuggernaut]

9180

[MikeE36]

Mike, have you tried loosening the bolts on the turbo to see if it will pivot slightly to offset the DP?

Yeah, but the turbo is mostly bolted down and the threads do not really have a lot of play in them for it to rotate. I have tried push it CCW as far as possible and it made almost no difference. (It is not 100% snugged down, just 95%)

9180

That's the one I've wanted all along. I know the 8374 is more practical for my uses. I just really really want that 67mm compressor and Gamma-Ti wheel. I want to see how fast a 94 lb/min can respond with such a light turbine wheel. I can get them for the same price so it's a wash on my end.

Mike

[iRodD]

For starters, put the wastegate dump on the other side of the downpipe.