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Thread: M70 mated with 5HP30

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokum View Post


    Yea too bad theres no one that has matted a 6speed to the M70 / M73
    yuk yuk yuk

    - - - Updated - - -

    Attachment 570041
    What are we looking at here - is that a GETRAG 420G modified to work with the M70/73?

  2. #102
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    Yes Sir it is

  3. #103
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    You can get bolt on adapters to do that-

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-V12-M7...UAAOSwMmBVr0eW

    They also do an M50/M52 version (which should also include up to S54 if I remember correctly)

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  4. #104
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    The 420g will handle more power than the 5hp30. From memory the 5hp30 is only rated to handle up to around 400bhp, though I did find a few people running it successfully with supercharged m62s when I was supercharging my 540i. No way it'll cope with a TT setup though.

    Anyone know if an 840i driveshaft would work with the 420g adapter?

  5. #105
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    I couldn't say straight off, but custom propshafts are pretty popular, just ask your nearest farmer who makes the bits for their tractors.

    Most of these people will know a driveline fabricator as they frequently get custom props made up for different attachments and power takeoffs, and I got something made up a good few years ago on an E36, just gave the guy the dimensions and a couple of old props that had the needed flanges on them, so getting something to fit should be a simple bridge to cross.

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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by enda320 View Post
    You can get bolt on adapters to do that-

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-V12-M7...UAAOSwMmBVr0eW

    They also do an M50/M52 version (which should also include up to S54 if I remember correctly)
    Now THIS got my attention, thread diversion or not! Thanks very much for the link -- when I did a BMW V12 build-up about eight years ago, something like this was nowhere to be found, at least in the knowledge I had at that time. Wound up buying a new 560G for a pretty penny at that time.

    The 420G was used in the E39 M5, right? I had a 2003 M5 that I bought new back in the day. That transmission was not strong enough for the car, and was replaced at least once under warranty in 30k miles. Now, that M5 had well more than a 100hp advantage on my current 850. But I'm just scratching my head about whether the savings for the 420G over the 560G make up for the fact that I may likely have a failure even sooner. Are flywheel and clutch parts easily interchangeable as well? I feel like I have read that the E39 clutch is an "upgrade" that some people put on their E31 cars, but my memory of my factory E39 clutch is that it would be sad to call it an upgrade to anything.

    I just don't know enough about the transmissions and associated parts yet, or what I intend to do as far as power on this particular 850... The comment above about driveshafts is correct -- a custom length unit is an easy matter.

    Cheers, John

  7. #107
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    WELL THAT'S JUST GREAT!!! i could have got the plate instead of modding the bell housing ....... OMG

  8. #108
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    yea, but where's the fun in just buying parts, eh?

    I guess we'd better stop de-railing this for now, if anyone gets one of those plates, they can start a new thread.
    I'd be interested since I'm not used to 4sp autos and it's a funny feeling.

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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by enda320 View Post
    yea, but where's the fun in just buying parts, eh?

    I guess we'd better stop de-railing this for now, if anyone gets one of those plates, they can start a new thread.
    I'd be interested since I'm not used to 4sp autos and it's a funny feeling.
    There is also another factor to consider which is the Gearing

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by enda320 View Post
    ...I guess we'd better stop de-railing this....
    [rant_alert]
    I've never heard of a tax on new threads.
    The OP has an original intent, traditionally revealed in post #1, and very specifically stated.
    Could be important to the future of the e31, and probably not a good idea to de-rail it.
    [/rant_alert]

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by enda320 View Post
    You can get bolt on adapters to do that-

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-V12-M7...UAAOSwMmBVr0eW

    They also do an M50/M52 version (which should also include up to S54 if I remember correctly)
    Thanks for the plug man, They have some amazing camber plates as well.

  12. #112
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    Anyone actually did this? I have a very good mechanic that is willing to TRY, but i need to know that it will work

    Quote Originally Posted by enda320 View Post
    You can get bolt on adapters to do that-

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-V12-M7...UAAOSwMmBVr0eW

    They also do an M50/M52 version (which should also include up to S54 if I remember correctly)

  13. #113
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    Discussion about M70 Manual adapters can be moved to here-
    http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...of-dream-parts

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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by pupqy View Post
    Anyone actually did this? I have a very good mechanic that is willing to TRY, but i need to know that it will work
    What am i chopped Liver?

  15. #115
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    Hey guys,

    I studied this thread thoroughly as I am standing in front of the same problem: Getting an M73 with 5HP30 to work in a '92 750iL which originally uses the M70/4HP24 combo.
    I originally intended to run the M73 with the M70 electronics and just stick with the 4HP24. But since I've had two '92 E32 740's which also use the 5HP30 theres nothing I'd like more than the 5 speed auto.
    There are multiple ways of getting the new engine/tranny to work as far as I'm concerned:

    - running on stock M70 DME's and getting the 5HP30 to work with those (maybe using the EGS from an E32 740 as that MIGHT be easier to adapt than for example a newer steptronic style EGS from an E38 750)
    - getting the M73 DME's with E38 5HP30 EGS to work in the old M70 chassis
    - going standalone for either both the engine and tranny or just the tranny

    So I'd like to know if wokke (or anyone else for that matter) was able to find out more about controlling the 5HP30 in an M70 car or if there is anyone currently also trying to solve this problem. And no I don't want to go manual since a big 7 series just has to be auto and I already have an E34 540i 6 speed for some serious fun

    Or perhaps I should start a new thread on this?

    Thanks!
    Karim, Germany
    Last edited by KarimV12; 12-23-2017 at 02:43 PM.

  16. #116
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    Nope, Another wishful thinking thread that got started with LOTS of interest and just faded til now. I'd like to do this in 3 cars but can't figure out how to use the 5th gear, When it does get figured out, There will be plenty of 3:91 Diffs for sale thats for sure.

  17. #117
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  18. #118
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    Okay, too bad this hasn't been very successfull yet. Well, I am really looking at finding a solution for this problem. I'm not intending to make money off of this, it is just a hobby and a 'desire' of mine to make my car better (more economical, more powerful, yet hopefully keeping as many of BMW's electronics as possible).
    I've briefly looked at some of the videos of the gentleman koenig d posted above, and sent him a message about this. Meanwhile I am studying almost every thread I can find about 5HP30's, and will also post these questions in some german forums to see if there are more people that have looked into this.
    I think next for me is to learn the basics of CAN BUS communication and look at the circuit diagrams and troubleshooting documents of both the M70/4HP cars and the M73/5HP cars.
    There has to be a way of solving this.
    Merry Christmas/Happy holidays
    Karim

  19. #119
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    Hello BMW friends and sorry for bumping this old thread but perhaps I can shed some light on this.

    I have rebuilt a 5HP18 box for my M60B30 and this has gotten me totally into autoboxes as I think they are amazing. I am currenty planning to fit a 5HP30 behind my 3.0 so I can flog it much more and to have the car prepared for a 4.0 or 4.4 swap.


    First, let me tell you why adapting a 6HP is going to be a pain in the ass:
    The 6HP has the gearbox computer inside the transmission itself. The wiring loom taps into the modern BMW CAN system. Older BMW do not have any CAN system and rely on analog signals. To get a 6HP to work correctly, you need to turn every analog signal into a digital signal and then feed it over an exact same CAN system. In theory this is all possible because all the required technology exists. In reality, this is extremely expensive and time consuming. Programming the 6HP26 for the M70 engine characteristics is not really a problem, the problem is feeding it the right signals in the right way.


    Lets look into the 5HP30:
    The 5HP series were fully electronic transmissions from the ground up. They need some signals to work properly like:
    - Trans temp
    - Throttle position
    - ABS input
    - RPM (measured on turbine or at engine)

    And most importantly, they need to know the car its RPM / Torque curve. The transmission shifts based on certain parameters of temperature, throttle position, ABS and RPM input. But depending on the engine torque at that specific RPM and current Throttle position when shifting, the transmission can calculate the torque it will receive in the next gear. The transmission knows this because it compares the RPM / Torque curve to the RPM + Throttle position at the shift moment. This information is used to engage and disengage the required clutches at exactly the right time to minimize slip and prevent any jerking. Not having the right RPM / Torque curve programmed, leads to wrong shifts and increased wear. Words with numbers like "This box can handle 1.000Nm so it will easily handle a 200Nm engine" are therefore bogus. Not knowing RPM / Torque means shifts are bad. This is different for old hydraulic gearboxes that use vacuum modulation and governor shifting.

    So: For an electronic box, it is an absolute must that the transmission software knows the engine RPM / Torque curve.

    Luckily, we can easily find out what the M70 RPM / Torque curve is and there are plenty of professionals who can reprogram a 5HP30 computer into taking the M70 RPM / Torque curve as a reference. We also know a 5HP30 will fit an M70 just fine as these boxes are mated to the M73. A V8 bellhousing should also fit as they both use the same large double ear bellhousing.

    So, knowing that:
    - We can fit the box
    - We can program the M70 RPM / Torque curve into a 5HP30 EGS

    We need to feed the right signals to the 5HP30.

    I think the solution lies in the E34/E32 M60B40 cars. These cars are equipped with the 5HP30 which means they have a complete OBD1/ADS compatible wiring loom running from the box to the EGS itself. These are EGS chips that do not use any modern CAN but more primitive CAN like protocols. They get many of their signals fed through one of the many slots they have. The old CAN does the rest The transmission needs:
    - Turbine speed (it will deliver this signal itself) OR Engine speed
    - Output shaft speed (it will deliver this signal itself)
    - ATF Temp (It will deliver this signal itself)
    - Input from the ABS system (So it will not shift when you are cornering)
    - Kickdown signal (Knows you want to engage kickdown)
    - Brake switch (Knows to disengage converter clutch)
    - Winter / S / A button input
    - Throttle position


    Since the E34/E32 M60 vehicles are OBD1 / ADS, we would need to use as much as we can from a 540i or 740i regarding sensors, wiring and any other thing that can give us the nessecary signals.


    The last signal challenge, is the ignition/injection retarder. Electronic transmissions send a signal to the DME to retard ignition/injection for a few miliseconds during shifting. This means the engine temporarily produces very little torque which makes it easier for the transmission to shift. This is noticeable in many BMW models as you very shortly notice the engine is "off" during shifting. Since the V12 uses 2 DME, we would have to find out of these DME are compatible with such a mechanism and then we need to feed them the signal.

    Looking at hardware.. what box do you want to use? We have another minor challenge. The 5HP30 has 2 variants:
    - V8 variant: 5 steels, 5 clutches in clutch B
    - V12 variant: 6 steels, 6 clutches in clutch B
    - Other clutch differences for the other clutches apply aswell. The clutch plates itself are also different.
    The holding capacity of the V12 variant is PROBABLY better. The different valve bodies will also engage and disengage the clutches differently. It is safe to assume that all V12 5HP30 use somekind of refined CAN system as they were introduced on the more modern 5.4 litre engines.

    Not only do we want to mate a V12 box to a V12, we also want to take the best holding capacity as we are doing custom engineering anyway. What you then need to do, is rebuild a V12 box and compare the actuation of the solenoid of a V12 computer to a V8 computer. If you see totally similar software but with different variables. You can copy the V12 shift program into the V8 computer and add the M70 RPM / Torque Curve. This means you are running a V12 box with a V12 shift program and correct torque curve on a V8 EGS. And this should work just fine. The V8 EGS will actuate the valve body based on the information of a box that uses max. clutch pack size.


    All in all, I think:
    - Getting a box to fit physically is no challenge. You can even choose the converter you want. V8 or V12 converter.
    - Getting a wiringloom connected to an EGS which has the M70 RPM / torque curve programmed, is a minor challenge. The loom and EGS already exist and can be found in a 4.0. Programming it, is a matter of finding someone who knows how DME / AGS / EGS chips work.
    - Feeding the standard signals is quite the challenge. You need to make sure you feed the signals exactly the way the 4.0 would feed them to the EGS. Biggest challenge may be the Throttle position as the M70 and M73 have electronic throttle bodies. If there is a way to get an exact same TPS signal out of these bodies, this very important signal is solved. Getting other signals digitally can also be done with custom sensors.
    - Feeding the 2 DME the retarder signal is a moderate challenge. I am willing to bet M70 DME are compatible with this technology as the 4HP was a hydraulic box family converted to electronic controls.
    - Building the hybrid V8 base software programmed to V12 standards with a different V12 RPM / Torque curve, is probably the biggest challenge. An alternative would be to use a 100% V8 box on a V8 computer with an M70 torque curve. However, I suggest you go ALLin on this one and try to get max. torque capacity behind that M70.
    Collect box codes: 1055 000 017 / 032 / 040

    A workaround for the CAN problem may be to fit an extra DME.. A 4.0 DME which you feed all the signals you have to feed it. The DME can then be connected to the EGS. Perhaps you can completely circumvent any custom CAN work like that :-). This DME will not control anything. A coder may also remove the any engine failsafe coding from that DME. Basically, that phoney DME is your translator and your EGS feeds the REAL DME's with the cutoff signal.

    I have a much easier job fitting a 5HP30 behind a M60B30 as I will:
    - Rebuild a V12 box and use a V8 input shaft (IF THESE ARE DIFFERENT)
    - Copy V12 EGS software on V8 EGS so the Valve body is actuated properly
    - Copy the M60B30 RPM / Torque curve on the V8 EGS and replace the M60B40 curve
    - All signals already there
    - All signals already fed to the EGS socket (EGS 5HP18 and 5HP30 E34/E32 V8 have same PIN layout)

    I need some minor soldering but all in all, this should be possible.
    Last edited by Frank87; 01-26-2018 at 12:16 AM.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank87 View Post
    Hello BMW friends and sorry for bumping this old thread but perhaps I can shed some light on this.

    I have rebuilt a 5HP18 box for my M60B30 and this has gotten me totally into autoboxes as I think they are amazing. I am currenty planning to fit a 5HP30 behind my 3.0 so I can flog it much more and to have the car prepared for a 4.0 or 4.4 swap.


    First, let me tell you why adapting a 6HP is going to be a pain in the ass:
    The 6HP has the gearbox computer inside the transmission itself. The wiring loom taps into the modern BMW CAN system. Older BMW do not have any CAN system and rely on analog signals. To get a 6HP to work correctly, you need to turn every analog signal into a digital signal and then feed it over an exact same CAN system. In theory this is all possible because all the required technology exists. In reality, this is extremely expensive and time consuming. Programming the 6HP26 for the M70 engine characteristics is not really a problem, the problem is feeding it the right signals in the right way.


    Lets look into the 5HP30:
    The 5HP series were fully electronic transmissions from the ground up. They need some signals to work properly like:
    - Trans temp
    - Throttle position
    - ABS input
    - RPM (measured on turbine or at engine)

    And most importantly, they need to know the car its RPM / Torque curve. The transmission shifts based on certain parameters of temperature, throttle position, ABS and RPM input. But depending on the engine torque at that specific RPM and current Throttle position when shifting, the transmission can calculate the torque it will receive in the next gear. The transmission knows this because it compares the RPM / Torque curve to the RPM + Throttle position at the shift moment. This information is used to engage and disengage the required clutches at exactly the right time to minimize slip and prevent any jerking. Not having the right RPM / Torque curve programmed, leads to wrong shifts and increased wear. Words with numbers like "This box can handle 1.000Nm so it will easily handle a 200Nm engine" are therefore bogus. Not knowing RPM / Torque means shifts are bad. This is different for old hydraulic gearboxes that use vacuum modulation and governor shifting.

    So: For an electronic box, it is an absolute must that the transmission software knows the engine RPM / Torque curve.

    Luckily, we can easily find out what the M70 RPM / Torque curve is and there are plenty of professionals who can reprogram a 5HP30 computer into taking the M70 RPM / Torque curve as a reference. We also know a 5HP30 will fit an M70 just fine as these boxes are mated to the M73. A V8 bellhousing should also fit as they both use the same large double ear bellhousing.

    So, knowing that:
    - We can fit the box
    - We can program the M70 RPM / Torque curve into a 5HP30 EGS

    We need to feed the right signals to the 5HP30.

    I think the solution lies in the E34/E32 M60B40 cars. These cars are equipped with the 5HP30 which means they have a complete OBD1/ADS compatible wiring loom running from the box to the EGS itself. These are EGS chips that do not use any modern CAN but more primitive CAN like protocols. They get many of their signals fed through one of the many slots they have. The old CAN does the rest The transmission needs:
    - Turbine speed (it will deliver this signal itself) OR Engine speed
    - Output shaft speed (it will deliver this signal itself)
    - ATF Temp (It will deliver this signal itself)
    - Input from the ABS system (So it will not shift when you are cornering)
    - Kickdown signal (Knows you want to engage kickdown)
    - Brake switch (Knows to disengage converter clutch)
    - Winter / S / A button input
    - Throttle position


    Since the E34/E32 M60 vehicles are OBD1 / ADS, we would need to use as much as we can from a 540i or 740i regarding sensors, wiring and any other thing that can give us the nessecary signals.


    The last signal challenge, is the ignition/injection retarder. Electronic transmissions send a signal to the DME to retard ignition/injection for a few miliseconds during shifting. This means the engine temporarily produces very little torque which makes it easier for the transmission to shift. This is noticeable in many BMW models as you very shortly notice the engine is "off" during shifting. Since the V12 uses 2 DME, we would have to find out of these DME are compatible with such a mechanism and then we need to feed them the signal.

    Looking at hardware.. what box do you want to use? We have another minor challenge. The 5HP30 has 2 variants:
    - V8 variant: 5 steels, 5 clutches in clutch B
    - V12 variant: 6 steels, 6 clutches in clutch B
    - Other clutch differences for the other clutches apply aswell. The clutch plates itself are also different.
    The holding capacity of the V12 variant is PROBABLY better. The different valve bodies will also engage and disengage the clutches differently. It is safe to assume that all V12 5HP30 use somekind of refined CAN system as they were introduced on the more modern 5.4 litre engines.

    Not only do we want to mate a V12 box to a V12, we also want to take the best holding capacity as we are doing custom engineering anyway. What you then need to do, is rebuild a V12 box and compare the actuation of the solenoid of a V12 computer to a V8 computer. If you see totally similar software but with different variables. You can copy the V12 shift program into the V8 computer and add the M70 RPM / Torque Curve. This means you are running a V12 box with a V12 shift program and correct torque curve on a V8 EGS. And this should work just fine. The V8 EGS will actuate the valve body based on the information of a box that uses max. clutch pack size.


    All in all, I think:
    - Getting a box to fit physically is no challenge. You can even choose the converter you want. V8 or V12 converter.
    - Getting a wiringloom connected to an EGS which has the M70 RPM / torque curve programmed, is a minor challenge. The loom and EGS already exist and can be found in a 4.0. Programming it, is a matter of finding someone who knows how DME / AGS / EGS chips work.
    - Feeding the standard signals is quite the challenge. You need to make sure you feed the signals exactly the way the 4.0 would feed them to the EGS. Biggest challenge may be the Throttle position as the M70 and M73 have electronic throttle bodies. If there is a way to get an exact same TPS signal out of these bodies, this very important signal is solved. Getting other signals digitally can also be done with custom sensors.
    - Feeding the 2 DME the retarder signal is a moderate challenge. I am willing to bet M70 DME are compatible with this technology as the 4HP was a hydraulic box family converted to electronic controls.
    - Building the hybrid V8 base software programmed to V12 standards with a different V12 RPM / Torque curve, is probably the biggest challenge. An alternative would be to use a 100% V8 box on a V8 computer with an M70 torque curve. However, I suggest you go ALLin on this one and try to get max. torque capacity behind that M70.
    Collect box codes: 1055 000 017 / 032 / 040

    A workaround for the CAN problem may be to fit an extra DME.. A 4.0 DME which you feed all the signals you have to feed it. The DME can then be connected to the EGS. Perhaps you can completely circumvent any custom CAN work like that :-). This DME will not control anything. A coder may also remove the any engine failsafe coding from that DME. Basically, that phoney DME is your translator and your EGS feeds the REAL DME's with the cutoff signal.

    I have a much easier job fitting a 5HP30 behind a M60B30 as I will:
    - Rebuild a V12 box and use a V8 input shaft (IF THESE ARE DIFFERENT)
    - Copy V12 EGS software on V8 EGS so the Valve body is actuated properly
    - Copy the M60B30 RPM / Torque curve on the V8 EGS and replace the M60B40 curve
    - All signals already there
    - All signals already fed to the EGS socket (EGS 5HP18 and 5HP30 E34/E32 V8 have same PIN layout)

    I need some minor soldering but all in all, this should be possible.
    Fantastic read! You're about the closest that I have seen to someone figuring out a viable solution. You've laid it out in a clear and concise manner, would love to see if this takes off as discussed - subscribed

  21. #121
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    A friend of mine is currently working on fitting a 5HP30 from an E38 (Steptronic) to his M70B54S engine. I guess in a few month we know how it all works.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by wokke View Post
    A friend of mine is currently working on fitting a 5HP30 from an E38 (Steptronic) to his M70B54S engine. I guess in a few month we know how it all works.

    Thats interesting.
    I would though aim for the manual. Its so much fun!!!

  23. #123
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    The real innovation lies into getting a 6HP to work. Reason for that is the 6HP offers the gear range of a 6 speed box over 5 gears with the added 6th overdrive gear for cruising.

    I may... MAY... (depends on how much time I have for it) consider skipping the 5HP30 project and try to get a 6HP to work on a OBD1 M60. I already have ideas on this but it is much less feasible than a 5HP30 project. The 6HP itself is also a more superior transmission. Not because of 6 gears and reduced shift times.. but because of the lower weight, higher Nm capacity and shorter box itself.

    This is a good thread with dedicated people. Whatever I discover, I will let you guys know.

  24. #124
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    I mean, a 5HP18 that can withstand M6x B40/44/46 power would be ideal because of how much of a drain the 30 is.


    What I'd like to know is how to make an M70 run on a mechanical 4HP22 while reusing the old DME.
    Last edited by XAlt; 01-27-2018 at 10:40 PM.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by XAlt View Post
    I mean, a 5HP18 that can withstand M6x B40/44/46 power would be ideal because of how much of a drain the 30 is.

    What I'd like to know is how to make an M70 run on a mechanical 4HP22 while reusing the old DME.
    Boosting a 5HP18 is no option. All drums must be re-engineered to handle 500Nm and the corresponding piston pressure. In addition, more clutch plates and steels are needed. The next problem is that, even if you have the knowledge on how to reprogram the 5HP18 EGS, the valve body and solenoids may simply not be able to deliver the required pressure and maybe also not on time.

    5HP30 much more feasible.

    Also, why would you want a 4HP22 on an M70? The 4HP24 is a much stronger and reliable variant of the 22. There is no reason to go 4HP22. More feasible (and it has been done) is upgrading a 4hp22 to 4hp24 hardware and internals. A box like that is useful for M30 turbos or similar 80' BMW projects.
    Last edited by Frank87; 01-28-2018 at 06:48 PM.

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