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Thread: M70 mated with 5HP30

  1. #126
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Chicago, Illinois
    My Cars
    are slow
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank87 View Post
    Also, why would you want a 4HP22 on an M70?

    More feasible (and it has been done) is upgrading a 4hp22 to 4hp24 hardware and internals..
    Because it's for a Range Rover. 24 internals is of course a good idea, that's been documented a lot.

    The M70's DME(s) and the connections to the EML, CCM, Cluster (a lightbulb will send it into limp home...) etc have me riddled as all I really want to do is an incredibly dirty swap where the engine doesn't care about what car its in.
    Last edited by XAlt; 01-28-2018 at 10:33 PM.

  2. #127
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Reykjavik Iceland
    My Cars
    Quote Originally Posted by wokke View Post
    A friend of mine is currently working on fitting a 5HP30 from an E38 (Steptronic) to his M70B54S engine. I guess in a few month we know how it all works.
    Wolf,,, do you know if it matters for the Electronic data guy ,, that if the car is E31 or E32 ? or is the baseline very similar between these cars with inboard ecu etc etc
    Sveinbjörn Hrafnsson

    E30 CABRIO V12 M70B50 ///
    ALPINA B10 BITURBO 346 @ 507
    E34 550 V12 JML

  3. #128
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Sunny Cali,
    My Cars
    6.5 second 69 Camaro
    Any progress or recent time spent on this, Still anxious as i have a trans out of a car for 2 years because of this thread,)
    Last edited by 8eights; 09-03-2018 at 07:07 AM.

  4. #129
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Cave Creek, AZ
    My Cars
    1993 850ci 2001 M5
    Quote Originally Posted by 8eights View Post
    Any progress or recent time spent on this, Still anxious as i have a trans out of a car for 2 years because of this thread,)

    You sir, are a patient man!

    Cave Creek, AZ

  5. #130
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    My Cars
    1994 BMW 530iA V8
    I have information for anyone who would ever attempt an M70+5HP30 build.

    I wrongfully assumed that these 5HP boxes need to know the RPM / Torque curve of the engine. This is probably true for the most modern gearboxes that use full modular shifting (all full modular solenoids). The 5HP18 and 5HP30 do not use complete modular shifting. Instead, a general pressure solenoid is modulated and the shift solenoids are either directly opened or closed. I knew this solenoid stuff years ago already but I was too stupid to connect A and B in this story.

    This means that the engine load signal is not used to determine HOW to shift (when to engage / disengage accurate on milliseconds). The signal is only used to determine WHEN to shift. Basically, the following variables are used when to shift up or down:
    - Engine RPM
    - Throttle position
    - Engine load readout
    - ABS wheel input (no upshifting when cornering)
    - Some temperatures here and there

    Example: Driving uphill without flooring it, throttle barey open, variables:
    - RPM low
    - Throttle position sensor low (throttle barely open)
    - Engine load readout HIGH as you are going uphill with low throttle in low RPM
    - ABS input steady
    - Assuming temperatures are all nominal
    Result: Gearbox will shift down to a lower gear as the engine load signal indicates the engine is under relatively high stress

    Example: Full acceleration, variables:
    - Throttle fully open
    - Engine under load
    - RPM constantly rising
    - ABS input steady
    - Assuming temperatures are all nominal
    Result: The Gearbox will have shifted to the lowest possible gear. As your throttle body is fully open, the gearbox holds you in this gear untill you reach the maximum RPM programmed into the box. Engine load is now accepted to be constantly high and basically not used as the driver wants max power from the engine.

    Example: Full acceleration, stopping acceleration around 4000 RPM, variables:
    - Throttle fully open then suddenly reduced to normal
    - Engine under load then suddenly, load drops to normal
    - RPM constantly rising, then stopping at around 4000 RPM
    - ABS input steady
    - Assuming temperatures are all nominal
    Result: At first the car follows the max acceleration program. When throttle and RPM steady out, engine load becomes lower aswell and the shift program knows it can shift to a higher gear knowing the car can handle the engine load in that gear at the lower RPM of that gear. The max acceleration program is no longer followed as its requirements (wide open throttle) are no longer met.

    Engine load is probably measured by a intake manifold PRESSURE sensor or it is possible that engine load is determined by the DME by comparing fuel injected to RPM. Low RPM with high amounts of fuel injected = high load (like accelerating full power from very low RPM).

    If you would want to put a 5HP30 on an M70 engine, all you would need to do is verify that the signals the M70 computer feeds to an EGS, are similar to the signals of a M73 computer. Basically, the question is:
    - Is the ENGINE wire harness of the M70 SIMILAR or ALMOST THE SAME compared to the M73?
    - Does the M70 use the SAME sensors (camshaft position, crankshaft position, manifold pressure, throttle bodies) as the M73?

    If those questions are yes, I think you can get very far by properly wiring a 5HP30 EGS from an E38. You would have to combine the wiring diagrams of the E38 to the E31 / E32. The EGS has alot of wires but it is not that difficult to comprehend. All wires going down to the gearbox are basically already reserved. The rest is simply feeding the EGS with the signals it needs. The DME does not know what gearbox is being used. The DME only knows it has to cut injection for a very short moment when it gets a certain signal.

    This brings us to another important question:
    - Does the M70 DME cut injection very shortly when the 4HP24 shifts?
    If yes, the M70 DME is programmed to receive the engine cut signal. Whatever EGS delivers this, shouldnt be important.

    All in all, I think this is a doable build if you have an E38 wreck close by.

    I am now in the process of fitting a 5HP30 V8 verison behind an M60B30 (originally fitted with 5HP18 off factory). If this fit works without any other tooling or programming, my assumption on the engine load laid out in this post, is true. I will keep you updated but this will take some months.
    Last edited by Frank87; 11-19-2018 at 06:04 PM.

  6. #131
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Hampshire UK
    My Cars
    99 840ci Sport Indv
    Thanks, that's interesting information!

    The engine load is computed from the injector dwell in respect RPM, this makes sense as the power output of the engine is directly rated to how much fuel is being injected.

    The introduction of the M73/M60 engines saw the employment of CANBus communications between the main driveline components. This removed the need for separate wiring of load signal, ABS/DSC, kick-down etc. between the components - and this is the reason that using non-CANBus components (such as the DME for the M70) is impossible with the CANBus M73 DME
    Last edited by Timm; 11-20-2018 at 06:10 AM.
    Timm..2007 E64 650i Individual Sport..1999 E31 840ci Individual Sport..ex owner of 2000 E38 740..1999 E38 740i V8 M62..1998 E38 735i V8..1993 E32 730i V8..1988 E28 518i

    My Current 840ci Sport Individual
    My Current 650ci Sport Individual
    My E31 Repair and Information Website
    My E38 Repair and Information Website
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    Chase - Heroes to a generation

  7. #132
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    My Cars
    745Li, 850i, LR3 HSE
    Has Timm said the stumbling block on this conversion is the CAN communication, contact CANTROLLS has they may have a solution.


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