strange parts mismatch problem: M20 heater hose vs. back-of-cylinder-head connector

[rsm540]

Hi all: I recently purchased an 89 325ic for my daughter. I'm more of a V8 e39 guy but must say this little car is fun to drive and work on. We've been doing all the usual things you do to a new old car in prep for her return to school next month. I've completed an R12-R134 retrofit, complete new cooling system, got the antenna working, fixed the dreaded "brake light" warning light, lots of other little nigglies but overall the car is very nice.

Today I had the intake system off in a pre-emptive move to replace gaskets, clean injectors, adjust valves, clean the block, replace hoses, etc. I'm glad I did because one of the heater hoses had a very small pinhole in it at the outside of a bend. Dealer had a new one, so I'm in great shape, or so I think. Get the new part home and it is significantly different from the hose that came off the car... and the old hose is a genuine BMW hose with the p/n easily readable right on the hose. And of course the new hose's p/n is identical. Specifically, this hose connects to what BMW calls a "connector" on the back of the cylinder head: I'd call it a right-angle nipple. The OD of this nipple is 24mm, but the ID of the corresponding end of the new hose is 14mm... and there is NO WAY this hose is going to stretch that much (and I wouldn't trust it for a week in that configuration anyway). The old hose is clearly a molded hose with a deliberately-larger end, while the new hose is of continuous ID throughout its length.

Back to the dealer we went. The counterman of course first tried to persuade me to stretch the hose: no. Then I suggested that perhaps BMW had changed both the hose AND the connector (except of course usually when they do that the ETK says something like "use only with...). So I ordered a new connector/nipple in the hopes that it will match the new hose. In the meantime I thought I'd ask if anyone here has run into this situation.

The part number for the hose is 64218367790.

The connector / nipple is 11121264600. And yes, I realize getting the nipple off with the head in the car is a "challenge" - the good news is that with the valve cover off I actually get marginally-better access, and both bolts are ~90% out (otherwise I'd show you a picture of the part).

Comments/suggestions?

Thanks,
Randy

[richardodn]

The nipple was never changed, so that can't be the issue. What I do find odd is doing a google image search on that part shows some with a flared end and some without. Very peculiar.

- - - Updated - - -

IS this what your hose looks like?

http://www.autohausaz.com/search/pro...er=64218367790

[rsm540]

Yes - that is precisely what is on the car. Photo below shows the original (bottom) and new one direct from the dealer - both have the same p/n. And there is no way the new one could be stretched to almost double its diameter...

THANK YOU for pointing this possible source out - I'll contact them tomorrow. Interestingly I couldn't find any with flared ends during my search.

Randy

[RomeoMike]

Jim Levie had this to say about changing that particular nipple:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...5#post27836975

[Zodiacbw]

There are two different hoses with that same p/n. One hose is straight through, the other has the a larger side on the one end. Ran into this on a cabrio I'm working on also.

[rsm540]

My dealer's parts department is now onboard with the fact that the "wrong" hose cannot be made to fit: however they have no way of discovering how to order the "correct" hose. I've got inquiries in to three online outlets who show the correct hose in their webpage images, and have heard back from one already who said the hoses they have in stock are the wrong ones.

My dealer did fidget around with the mating connector and came up with a potential donor hose that might work: I'll try that this evening. But other than that, I'm stuck: if anyone knows any tricks to obtain the correct part, I'm all ears/eyes.

Thanks,
Randy

[richardodn]

Try Pelican Parts http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/...I1.x=12&I1.y=5

It looks like they have both with slightly different part numbers.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually that may no help as it looks like its not stocked.

But here's a good pic of what the part should look like.



Note that you can actually read the PN 64.21-8 367 790

- - - Updated - - -

A guess as to what's wrong in the parts system. I'd bet BMW ordered new stock and the part was made incorrectly. Now they have bad parts in the system and no way of knowing which ones are bad until you see them.

- - - Updated - - -

Also try searching on the ABPA partslink number 11706200001. Maybe this one on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-1027AMZ8661-Coolant-Hose/dp/B001CF7PD2#productDetails

[rsm540]

I *think* I may have a solution to the situation. This is largely due to leads from the folks here and help from Mike at Pelican:

This and two other hoses were the product of the well-documented recall campaign regarding the bypass thermostat for the heater core. One of those hoses is the small bypass hose that safeguards the heater core: the other two connect the core to the cylinder head via the new thermostat. It appears that some number of the "correct" hose - with the flared end - were manufactured, but then at some point someone changed the specs to the "current" hose - the one without the flare. The parts listed on Pelican actually use the same core part number but differ in suffix. Mike told me that those suffices are added by Pelican and denote manufacturer and sometimes distributor. In the case of the two hoses discovered by Richard - they both have the same part number but one has a "M9" suffix while the other has a "BOE." Both of these indicate to Pelican's ordering system that the part comes from BMW. So the point is that ordering either part would result in BMW sending out p/n 64-21-8-367-790, which is the wrong part (as evidenced by parts I received from both BMA and BMW).

In other words, no matter which one you ordered from Pelican, you would likely receive the incorrect one because they would just have to order the core number from BMW.

But then Mike had the brilliant idea of looking up the hose that was used prior to installation of the recall: p/n 64-21-1-380-527. Curiously, if you do a p/n search on RealOEM, this part shows up in three places for a BB23-configured E30. In two of the photos, the hose is drawn incorrectly - it's just a straight hose. But in the third diagram it is correct... it looks just like the hose you would have if you took the additional thermostat out of my car and somehow glued the two hoses together. Which leads to the natural conclusion of "buy that hose and cut it to fit." Compare the circled part of the image below with the photo in Richard's post above.

The surprising thing to me is that my E30 seems to be the only one out there with this failure mode: how is that BMW goofed up the part like this and no one else has whined?

Thanks to all for your help...

[richardodn]

I'm pretty sure that the bad part introduction is only within the last few years. I did all the hoses on my E30 about 4 years ago and was able to obtain the correct part.

[rsm540]

I sent an email to the "bmwgenius" contact address listed on bmwusa.com - first time ever - and will be interested to see if they reply. Not being an Apple person, I'm not sure what to expect from the "genius" label.

Last evening I finished removing the elbow/nipple/pipe - grudgingly acknowledging that I shouldn't have touched it in the first place - and did experience a bit of good luck: the old gasket was stuck to the pipe rather than to the head. Maybe there's a chance I'll get it reinstalled without having to pull the motor mounts.

Thanks for your help.

[rjcaptsean]

I sent an email to the "bmwgenius" contact address listed on bmwusa.com - first time ever - and will be interested to see if they reply. Not being an Apple person, I'm not sure what to expect from the "genius" label.

The BMWGENIUS is the nerdy guy at the dealership that sits down with you to go over all of the options available for your new bimmer (without the sales pressure you would normally get). At least it has been described as such in the "Roundel".

[strad]

I sent an email to the "bmwgenius" contact address listed on bmwusa.com - first time ever - and will be interested to see if they reply. Not being an Apple person, I'm not sure what to expect from the "genius" label. Last evening I finished removing the elbow/nipple/pipe - grudgingly acknowledging that I shouldn't have touched it in the first place - and did experience a bit of good luck: the old gasket was stuck to the pipe rather than to the head. Maybe there's a chance I'll get it reinstalled without having to pull the motor mounts. Thanks for your help.

the genius people at the apple store that I've talked to all know a whole lot more than I do! Always have been able to send me away happy! Not sure about the bmwgenius . . .

[rsm540]

Email thread with BMWGENIUS ....


-----Original Message-----

From: me
Sent: 8/26/2014 12:00:00 AM
To: <bmwgenius>
Subject: need help with part issue

Hello:

This concerns a heater hose in my daughter's 1989 E30 325i cabriolet - specifically BMW p/n 6421 8367 790.

The hose which came out of the car looks like this:

correct.png

Note the flared end on the lower side.

However, for the exact same part number, the BMW parts system provides the following hose:


incorrect.png

In this case, the entire hose ID is the same as the "small" end of the hose pictured above. By way of comparison, the flared end of the hose must fit on a 24mm nipple: the ID of the incorrect hose is 14mm - there is NO WAY it can or should be made to fit by stretching (as has been suggested by BMW parts department).

How do I obtain the correct hose? If it helps, this hose was involved in a recall of these E30s - now many years ago - in which a secondary thermostat/bypass was added to protect the heater core. I do not have the ID for that recall.

Thanks for any help you may be able to provide.

Randy



-----Original Message-----
From: bmwgenius [mailto:bmwgenius]
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 1:40 PM
To: me
Subject: Your BMW Correspondence

Hi Randall,

Thanks for contacting the BMW Genius Team regarding your 1989 BMW 325i.

We would be happy to assist you with your inquiry however, the BMW Genius Team currently only supports model year 2011 and newer.

We suggest contacting the service team at your authorized BMW center for this information. The service staff has the expertise to assist you and are eager to share their knowledge. Should you need it, a list of our authorized BMW centers is available at: www.bmwusa.com under “Dealer Locator.”

The BMW Genius Team is available Monday through Friday from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m., ET. You can reach us at 1.844.4GENIUS (443-6487).

Make a BMW product expert your new co-pilot.

Adam Locke
BMW Genius
Representative


-----Original Message-----
From: bmwgenius [mailto:bmwgenius]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 1:22 PM
To: me
Subject: RE: Your BMW Correspondence

Adam/et al:

Thank you for your reply. I (now) understand the intent of the bmwgenius product.

However, there does remain a problem with the aforementioned part, specifically that the component in BMW warehouses and bearing this number is incorrect; that this same part number at one time did specify the correct component (eg., I have an original BMW hose with this BMW part number which came out of this car), and that no one at the three BMW dealers I engaged to help solve this issue seem to know how to deal with it.

So... I am turning this issue over to you to do with as you please: I would hope that you have the necessary internal communications channels within BMW to bring this to the attention of personnel who can evaluate why/how the non-conforming part is being inventoried and sold, and whether it is worth the company's time to sort it out and correct it: in the meantime we BMW enthusiasts - and our daughters - with E30s are at risk of being sidelined by a $10 hose.

Sincerely,
Randy

[richardodn]

I edited the email addresses out of your post.

It's a bummer but understandable that the program wasn't able to help. Another thought I had was approaching this from the BMW Classic side. Their focus is on the older cars and that includes the E30. Here's a link to their contact form. http://shop.bmw-classic.com/is-bin/I...ame=HS_Contact

[rsm540]

In the words of the great Homer Simpson... "D'oh!" Thank you. A rookie oversight.

- - - Updated - - -

1. Final follow-up: the original (pre-recall) hose has been received and is definitely the correct part.

2. I am (additional) living proof that it is definitely possible to R&R the nipple/pipe/connector at the rear of the cylinder head while everything is in the car. For what it's worth, this is what I did:

- intake system removed (this was the original task that led to this issue in the first place)
- valve cover removed
- plastic cable hangar removed from firewall (2x 10mm body nuts) and attached wire loom pushed forward as far as possible

I removed the two mounting bolts by first soaking them in penetrating oil overnight (superstition / hysteria from bad experience with similar bolts on my M62), then used a ratcheting end wrench to get them out. You could do this with a standard wrench if you had an additional month. I got lucky in that the gasket came with the nipple, leaving very little of the gasket material on the head.

I next removed the motor mounts and lowered the motor as much as possible... and quickly discovered that "as much as possible" isn't very much - the steering rack immediately interferes with the oil pan (which all you experienced folk probably already know). So I don't really think removing the motor mounts helped - I maybe gained 1/4"???

To clean the back of the head I used a long-handled razor scraper, a lacquer thinner-soaked rag, a dental mirror and a flashlight.

To prepare the part for installation I inserted the passenger-side (US) bolt into the nipple and gasket and masking-taped the bolt into position. I used a second piece of tape on the bottom edge of the nipple to capture the gasket in place (without wrapping the tape up around the gasket). Finally, I inserted the second bolt and placed the entire assembly into position... sort of. Working from the driver's side of the head I spent a good 45-minutes hopelessly trying to position the nipple with one hand while trying to get the inboard bolt to capture the hole, the entire time becoming increasingly alarmed that this might not be a do-able operation. In frustration I moved to the other side of the head (this is a cabrio, so right next to the battery) and found that if I put my left forearm up alongside the exhaust manifold I could bend my wrist and fit my hand such that I could reach the outboard bolt/hole while holding the entire part with my right hand from the opposite side of the head. Doing it this way I had the first bolt started in 15 seconds, and the second in about the same amount of time. Once both bolts were started I removed the masking tape and had the part installed inside two minutes.

Live and learn.

[E30hav]

In the words of the great Homer Simpson... "D'oh!" Thank you. A rookie oversight.

- - - Updated - - -

1. Final follow-up: the original (pre-recall) hose has been received and is definitely the correct part.

2. I am (additional) living proof that it is definitely possible to R&R the nipple/pipe/connector at the rear of the cylinder head while everything is in the car. For what it's worth, this is what I did:

- intake system removed (this was the original task that led to this issue in the first place)
- valve cover removed
- plastic cable hangar removed from firewall (2x 10mm body nuts) and attached wire loom pushed forward as far as possible

I removed the two mounting bolts by first soaking them in penetrating oil overnight (superstition / hysteria from bad experience with similar bolts on my M62), then used a ratcheting end wrench to get them out. You could do this with a standard wrench if you had an additional month. I got lucky in that the gasket came with the nipple, leaving very little of the gasket material on the head.

I next removed the motor mounts and lowered the motor as much as possible... and quickly discovered that "as much as possible" isn't very much - the steering rack immediately interferes with the oil pan (which all you experienced folk probably already know). So I don't really think removing the motor mounts helped - I maybe gained 1/4"???

To clean the back of the head I used a long-handled razor scraper, a lacquer thinner-soaked rag, a dental mirror and a flashlight.

To prepare the part for installation I inserted the passenger-side (US) bolt into the nipple and gasket and masking-taped the bolt into position. I used a second piece of tape on the bottom edge of the nipple to capture the gasket in place (without wrapping the tape up around the gasket). Finally, I inserted the second bolt and placed the entire assembly into position... sort of. Working from the driver's side of the head I spent a good 45-minutes hopelessly trying to position the nipple with one hand while trying to get the inboard bolt to capture the hole, the entire time becoming increasingly alarmed that this might not be a do-able operation. In frustration I moved to the other side of the head (this is a cabrio, so right next to the battery) and found that if I put my left forearm up alongside the exhaust manifold I could bend my wrist and fit my hand such that I could reach the outboard bolt/hole while holding the entire part with my right hand from the opposite side of the head. Doing it this way I had the first bolt started in 15 seconds, and the second in about the same amount of time. Once both bolts were started I removed the masking tape and had the part installed inside two minutes.

Live and learn.

Randy I have the same problem and I keep getting the wrong hose how did you resolve your issue thanks in advance did you get from the dealer after all? The guy from the dealer told me to boil the hose and try stretching it

[hotdish]

^ He ordered the original pre-recall version of the hose that was straight through without the extra thermostat and out the end that he needed. Different part number.

[E30hav]

But what's the part number

[hotdish]

I think it's #12 in here: (bookmark realoem, it's a great resource)

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=1113-USA-11-1989-E30-BMW-325i&diagId=11_1167

[garretvs]

That mess of hoses was one of the things that prompted us to swap an LS1 into our E30. 4 hoses: 2 heater and 2 radiator. Germans make things way too complicated ---- like the genius engineers at VW-Audi who decided to put all of the v6 and v8 cam timing chains on the back end of the engine ---- so you have to pull the entire engine/tranny to service them. In a couple more years there will be a lot of cheap A8's and S4's on the market.

[87Cabrio89is]

Late to the party here, but I just reviewed my records and I used the pre recall p/n when I did my hoses more than 4 years ago (just did TB due to age, not milage) and recall cutting the hose. I don't recall what led me to that solution.