Hey Josh,
Very glad you have nice progress on your project
I have to brake your balloon hear with your choice
of 6 speed from E39M5.
You should have purchase the one from M3, why ?
Because the "V" shape S62/M60 tranny bell housing is
so much more wider and make dimensionally much different
than the L6 M30/S38
The "V" S62/M60 is not the proper choice
for your custom project also because the transmission
bell-housing is Not offset to bolt the slant L6 and then
tail/body to be straight so the shifter will align.
Did you know that the M3 tranny and M5 are the same ?
just the front part of the bell housing is different.
Just as you sad above the bolt pattern on the M3 is
very very similar to the one on the S38. So the closer
to start the less work we have to alter.
Think constructive. M3 L6 is the same DNA as the L6 M30/S38
both engines are slant so the bell housing alingement is offset
to accept the slant block, starter location, same time the tail of the tranny
is straight so to match the shifter linkages.
Hear is a little secret for you: Learn from your beautiful Euro E36M3
this is the best choice to pick and they are cheap in
UK to source. Why E36M3 ? Because the Euro E36M3 6 speed
G420 is using the same Input shift splines which bolts direct to
our M30/S38 clutch disc. So now we saved another HeadAche
making a custom Clutch Disc which the E39M5/E46M3 are using
larger input shaft/splines.
The gear ratios are all the same for E46M3/E36M3/E34M5 3.8 Euro 6spd
At clutch masters in Riverside they do what ever you want
but why not remain with easy part when you burn the clutch disc
at the track, you have to purchase a disc from them every time ?
easier to buy from your local parts store factory
cutch disc done and done.
Hear is what you we can do, source the E36M3 version from Evo 3.2
from UK they are everywhere. Separate the Bell-Housing. Call
Dan, from Miller he made an adapter plate about ~25mm+/-
When the bell housing is ready and cut to spec then is the
most interesting part is to weld this both pieces very precise and
to be aligned very well because we don't want to have the input
shaft under load because the bell-housing is not welded straight.
what we need to do is, disassemble the tranny back, make a
sleve at the machine shop lathe were you will Lock the Inputshaft
Housing cover so it is centered and have zero play. Ones you do that
now we have tranny input shaft locked and aligned straight, (as you know they
always have a very little play so to take any small vibrations/twist other
wise if solid the input bearing inside the tranny will brake in no time)
Get M30 Block from the junk yard, including the crankshaft cut the
crank were the front side so when you have the block back facing up
vertical you have that flat base and makes it easier to work. Bolt the
adapter plate to the block, then drop inside the crankshaft bearing
let say a small ball of 1.2mm so when you drop the tranny the input
shaft will not go tight all the way because you need about
1.~2mm before the input shaft bottoms out inside the crankshaft base
this will allow you to have some room when the engine gets hot and
parts do expend to avoid to touch.
When you start welding the process must be very slow, pre heat the
bell housing and start welding it very slow in a very similar way when you
assemble your BBS RS wheels bolts
This project looks very easy and naive, just like it sounds we can
cut the bell housing and weld the new adapter plate but to make it
the proper way you need all that above otherwise you will be rebuilding
the tranny very often.
I am working on very similar 6 speed project at the moment and
I went thru a lot of issues which I have altered and figure out.
This is very easy on the pocket just have to spent some time to
make it properly.
Regards,
Anri
Last edited by sofiabghome; 03-01-2017 at 12:02 PM.
- E24 M6 88' Schwartz/Sparco Race Track Toy
- E24 M6 88' Schwartz/Nature. daily driver
- E24 M6 88' Royal Blue/Lotus White- Restoration project.
- E24 M6 88' Zinnoberrot/Natur. daily S38 B35 special engine project...
- E30 M3 Diamand Schwartz build S14-B2X.
- E28 M5 Black/Nature M-Technic project
- E31 '97 840Ci Black/Black CSI complete futures my cruiser soon S62-B50 6spd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTV4asC3Bp0&t=14s
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyh...yUW-Q/featured
https://www.instagram.com/euroclassicmotors/
Great write-up Anri,
So from these photos, which one did I buy. My 5 speed overdrive that was in the e12 chassis 633 CSI bolted straight to my S38B38. Do you think that this will also be a direct bolt up? It came out of a US 2000 e39 540i so I'm assuming I'll need significant modification. My clutch is S38B38.
Thanks again.
Josh
s-l1600 (1).jpg
s-l1600 (2).jpg
s-l1600.jpg
1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.9L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.73 LSD. 417hp, 369lb/ft
1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 347hp, 295lb/ft
First engine start post big cams in.
Need to re-adjust those shims as post first start one or two have shifted. Will get water in the engine and run it for a while unloaded, then re-adjust all shims.
By Friday should be right to book in the dyno.
1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.9L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.73 LSD. 417hp, 369lb/ft
1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 347hp, 295lb/ft
Hi Josh,
No go, you got the V8 M60/S62.
The bell housing is huge compare
to the M30/S38.
Yes, all M30/S38/S14 share the
same bell-housing.
Get yourself either E36M3 Evo or
E46M3. The E36M3 version is much
older compare to E46M3 and the
chances are to find a tranny in a
good condition is smaller compare
to the E46M3 version.
Looks like you have this V8 already
purchased and no returns ? So in
this case keep it as a spare. Get
yourself 6spd from E46M3 and
modify that bell-housing.
On the clutch disc: last year I did
E30M3 S54 swap and the car came
with the 5 spd E36M3. The S54 had
E36M3 8.5pounds flywheel with E34M5
Clutch kit. I have installed 6spd and
kept the flywheel and the pressure
plate from E34M5 but purchased a
disc specifically made for this swap
from Clutch Masters(I do have an account
with them)
Then you have nice single mass fly wheel
with 6spd combination.
You should be aware that the G420 is a bit
"Love and hate" the synchro is 3 piece and
they are very finicky when you miss-shift
few times....not like the G280s one piece
synchro...Also if you have worn out fork that
is it better looking for another spare one.
whit one word BMW does not sell spare part
for rebuild, so spare tranny is always needed.
I am a bit confuse when you say you have
S38-B38 clutch, do you mean you still retain
the dual mass original S38-B38 ?
Regards
Anri
Last edited by sofiabghome; 03-01-2017 at 01:18 AM.
- E24 M6 88' Schwartz/Sparco Race Track Toy
- E24 M6 88' Schwartz/Nature. daily driver
- E24 M6 88' Royal Blue/Lotus White- Restoration project.
- E24 M6 88' Zinnoberrot/Natur. daily S38 B35 special engine project...
- E30 M3 Diamand Schwartz build S14-B2X.
- E28 M5 Black/Nature M-Technic project
- E31 '97 840Ci Black/Black CSI complete futures my cruiser soon S62-B50 6spd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTV4asC3Bp0&t=14s
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyh...yUW-Q/featured
https://www.instagram.com/euroclassicmotors/
Hi Josh,
On your engine, first start is
always very exciting. I have
noted something in your picture
with the cat cams/head.
From the picture I can see the
shims are thinner than normal.
In what range are they low 3.30ish ?
I hope you have room for adjustment
You should have smoothen the edges
where you have cut the cam tray
bottom part so to fit the cat cams.
Those cam tray bucket edges are not so
well to keep their is a risk of making
scores on the side skirt bucket because
temp expansion and also the bucket
at does get a lot of load and stresses
at hi rpm via the now the more aggressive
camshaft profile.
Was that clicking sound from the valve
train ? or its camera microphone ?
I think is way to early to re-check the
valve lash, have you replaced the valve
seats when the new valve were installed ?
Regards,
Anri
Last edited by sofiabghome; 03-01-2017 at 01:18 AM.
- E24 M6 88' Schwartz/Sparco Race Track Toy
- E24 M6 88' Schwartz/Nature. daily driver
- E24 M6 88' Royal Blue/Lotus White- Restoration project.
- E24 M6 88' Zinnoberrot/Natur. daily S38 B35 special engine project...
- E30 M3 Diamand Schwartz build S14-B2X.
- E28 M5 Black/Nature M-Technic project
- E31 '97 840Ci Black/Black CSI complete futures my cruiser soon S62-B50 6spd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTV4asC3Bp0&t=14s
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyh...yUW-Q/featured
https://www.instagram.com/euroclassicmotors/
I have a few bell housings, I may be able to swap. Either way this gearbox change is not planned for a while. I want to drive the car for a few months, maybe to mid next year without having to have it off of the road for months. Basically, it has been off of the road for 3 years and I've had enough of not being able to drive it. Once the 6 speed is here (and it is on its way now) I'll get it to my mechanic and he can get it right, dealing with the bell housing issue.
Shims still need adjusting. This was just a first quick start up. Running the stock ECU. We'll re-adjust shims and make amendments as needed prior to getting water into the cooling system and starting it for a longer period. We'll then take the rocker cover off and make any final adjustments.
1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.9L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.73 LSD. 417hp, 369lb/ft
1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 347hp, 295lb/ft
Shims on their way this week. Car booked in for dyno next Wednesday.
Hopefully right in 2 weeks.
1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.9L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.73 LSD. 417hp, 369lb/ft
1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 347hp, 295lb/ft
Shims in yesterday. Valve adjustment to be completed early next week then dyno time.
1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.9L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.73 LSD. 417hp, 369lb/ft
1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 347hp, 295lb/ft
Hope all goes well.
When its running do yourslef a favour and just drive it round for a bit rather than upgrading more stuff.
It will be be interesting to see what it makes on the dyno. Hopefully circa 320rwhp, may even make more if the tune is sorted. The peak hp is one thing but what's truly special about our 4valve m30 based engines is the power and torque under the curve. I guess you are about to find out what all the fuss is about.
BMW’s
90 E34 M5
84 E24 M635csi standalone ecu with coil on plug
94 E34 540i/6 SC 5-17psi Flex fuel/standalone ecu
97 Z3 2.8
97 E36 M3 euro SC still u/c
OTHERS
11 Audi S5 APR stg2
19 Volkswagen Amarok V6
It is lovely to see my old engine going so strong,,,, i am extremely happy that it had turn out to be such a master motor,,,
ok,, some cost,, but the result is simply STUNNING,,
Sveinbjörn Hrafnsson
E30 CABRIO V12 M70B50 ///
ALPINA B10 BITURBO 346 @ 507
ULTIMA Evolution
Contacts
http://alpina.123.is/pictures/
My opinion ,, is that the 6 speed tranny,,, is the most over geared hype ,,EVER in a tranny fairytale,,,, as i have one ((oem)) in my E30 V12 Cabrio and the G560 share almost identical ratio as the G420,,, and the 1st gear is ultra low/short vs 1st in the G260/265/280 IL6 bigblock gearboxes,,, and the 5 speed is a superb blend between gears when you have plenty of grunt and high end power,,, so why on earth spending a fortune for this,, if you do not need it,,,
the 2 last gears share same ratio .... 1:1 and 0.81:1,,,,,,,, its only 123 and 1234 that is the difference,,,,
i am a fan of all kinds of ratio ,,it is my interest ((hobby)) to search and speculate about diffs etc etc,,, and after i got the manual gearbox for my V12 swap,, in had to go MINIMIUM 2.93,,, diff ratio to launch the car ,,,,,,1450 kg/3200 lbs,,,, on the 5 speed gearboxes the 1st gear is longer,,,, and suits often better
just my opinion
Sveinbjörn Hrafnsson
E30 CABRIO V12 M70B50 ///
ALPINA B10 BITURBO 346 @ 507
ULTIMA Evolution
Contacts
http://alpina.123.is/pictures/
I'll run the 5 speed overdrive for now. The 6 speed 420g has the wrong bell housing so will sit for a while. I may even sell it. Plenty of people over here wanting a getrag 420g for an install into a 540 auto or 840.
1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.9L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.73 LSD. 417hp, 369lb/ft
1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 347hp, 295lb/ft
Sveinbjörn Hrafnsson
E30 CABRIO V12 M70B50 ///
ALPINA B10 BITURBO 346 @ 507
ULTIMA Evolution
Contacts
http://alpina.123.is/pictures/
What I'm doing and what lost Scandinavians do is get hold of a broken m10/m30 bolt pattern gearbox and have a machinist/fabricator fuse the bolt pattern/ bellhousing to the 420g. There are several adaptors u can get but the problem in the 6 is they will add some length so u run into troube with the trans tunnel. I find the ratios against the m60 and s50 to be fine. First is a little short in the supercharged 540i/6 but I run a tallish 3.15 diff. In the s50 I have 8000rpm at my disposal and it was great with the 3.62 diff which will be very close to your 3.73.
On other matters do u have that big monster b38 tuned and dynoed as yet. We don't know if you are to busy enjoying it or had some other niggles to sort. Hope it's the first.
BMW’s
90 E34 M5
84 E24 M635csi standalone ecu with coil on plug
94 E34 540i/6 SC 5-17psi Flex fuel/standalone ecu
97 Z3 2.8
97 E36 M3 euro SC still u/c
OTHERS
11 Audi S5 APR stg2
19 Volkswagen Amarok V6
Hey Gaz,
A few issues. We dyno'd on a rolling road up to 300rwhp with a little to go. No idea how accurate the rolling road was. We were getting a pfffttttttt intermittently from the engine. We only did one quick run but shut it off. We believe the valve guides are an issue and clearances. Note that there has been absolutely no damage to the engine.
We bought in a specialist who has worked on S38B38's previously and knows this engine type well. He confirmed the valve guides are an issue and clearance to pisto head. We have 1mm clearance to valves as per the CATCAMS spec sheet. Said specialist builds drag engines to 2000hp and believes that we need 2mm at . He wants to take the valve clearance to 2mm and re-do valve guides. He also wants to take out the rough edges in the cam box.
So, engine is out as you can see and gone to the specialist. Engine is being broken down and reviewed. Specialist uses a bench dyno so whatever the hp is, we will get a true reading at the flywheel.
1. Engine to be broken down. Bottom end to stay together.
2. New valve guides.
3. Head fully checked for accuracy and build.
4. Cam box to have all rough edges removed.
5. Pistons to have an extra 1mm into the valve reliefs.
6. Everything balanced and checked then put back together. New gaskets
7. Megasquirt on and then bench dyno.
A pain but we want to get it right. My mechanic was a bit miffed when I bought what was supposed to be street cams to see the spec sheet noted "for race applications only". So we need to get this right, like a race engine.
20160923_071403.jpg
asdf.jpg
1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.9L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.73 LSD. 417hp, 369lb/ft
1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 347hp, 295lb/ft
Painstaking, but worth it.
Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk
What a bugger josh. Any engine should be built right. Perhaps while u are at it get some adjustment slots in the cam wheels which will help optimise the cam position for power and piston/valve clearance.
Lots of performance parts say 'race use only' or 'off road use only' to cover themselves for emission regulations.
While it's all apart I'd be very tempted to give the engine more compression. Mid to high 10s is good but mid to high 11s is so much better. Seeing u are milling the pistons any way mill them a little more and throw in a thin 027' MLS head gasket which should give at least another 1/2 a point of comp without shaving head or block. Maybe machine a tiny bit off the head as well combined with the MLS should give you another point of comp.
the extra comp will give you a better spread of torque and effectivly clam down the bigger cam and it will make lots more power. It will turn that engine from a monster to a psychotic beast.
BMW’s
90 E34 M5
84 E24 M635csi standalone ecu with coil on plug
94 E34 540i/6 SC 5-17psi Flex fuel/standalone ecu
97 Z3 2.8
97 E36 M3 euro SC still u/c
OTHERS
11 Audi S5 APR stg2
19 Volkswagen Amarok V6
Gaz,
The block has been decked at least once and the head at least twice. The cam box (the head comes in two halves) has also been decked. So effectively we have at the minimum, decked a surface 4 times.
Pistons are overbore one size and we must have taken out a combined 1mm from the block and head surfaces. When I calculated my compression on my M30B34 race engine, decking the head 1mm would lift compression 0.5. My engine here started at 10.5:1. So I am somewhere closer to 11:1.
The cam gears are getting slotted by the specialist. Forgot to mention that.
The valve guide issue is something we have done when placing in the new valves. So effectively we are still in the engine build so still within the "build it right" window. Same with the clearance. I'll consider the skinny gasket however and discuss it with the engine builder.
The pistons are light, really light. A stock M30 piston is around 650g. My M30 race pistons are 474g. The pistons in this S38B38 are 356g, almost half the mass of a stock piston. The cams are also half the mass of a stock cam. It should spin up pretty easily and quickly with less mass to push.
So a .027" gasket, 0.69mm? Thin but strong. We were thinking 1mm so I'll discuss this today.
Don't forget I've got a short 3.73 LSD and with the 6th speed, effectively a dogleg 5 speed with a 6th overdrive. It should accelerate like a rocket.
I'm also thinking of taking my rear wheels from 17x8.5 to 17x10. Take a look at the photo. Current wheels just don't seem to fill out the guard properly.
20160424_173338_zps1qtegvfl.jpg
1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.9L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.73 LSD. 417hp, 369lb/ft
1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 347hp, 295lb/ft
I run a 17x10 et15 with a 12mm spacer making them et2. I have -3deg pet side of rear camber which helps by accident tuck the tyres into the guards and I run a 255 tyre. Without the spacer I'd be able to run a 275 tyre. Wide tyres do lots for cornering grip but don't help the straight line grip that much. It's more the compound.
Theres quite a few good soft grippy tyres around now as mentioned before. As a road tyre I love the pilot supersports. They only come in Australia in 18" rims. I have them both on my 450bhp work ute and my 500bhp e34 and they work great even in the wet. The ones on the ute are still not worn down to the treadwear markers had them for 40000km so they last.
For 17" heard good stuff on the hankook rs3 but never personally used them. The Bridgestone re-71r have finally been released here in Australia which look an exciting tyre and available in 17"
but the engine needed first. I wouldn't take off any more from the head or block. I've got the mls in 027' on the 2002 and no issues. It will give about 0.5-0.6 of comp on its own.
BMW’s
90 E34 M5
84 E24 M635csi standalone ecu with coil on plug
94 E34 540i/6 SC 5-17psi Flex fuel/standalone ecu
97 Z3 2.8
97 E36 M3 euro SC still u/c
OTHERS
11 Audi S5 APR stg2
19 Volkswagen Amarok V6
Gaz,
Talked to Tony the race engine specialist. He'll break down the entire engine and check it for balance, clearances and check all dimensions. He has no issue going a 0.7mm MLS gasket and can add that to his fly-cut. He thinks the valves may be hitting the edge of the fly-cut or it may be a radial clearance issue as he believes the current pistons have deep enough valve reliefs if the valve is directly over it. So may not be as bad as thought. He stated that the pistons are very light and the engine should spin up very quickly.
He'll have the engine apart by late next week and then discuss the build up with me. He'll also smooth out the cambox machining that was completed to allow the bigger cams to turn freely.
I've got a bit of meat left in my current tyres. I was more concerned re filling out the rear guards a little better. When I'm out of rubber we'll have a chat about the best 17'x8.5' to run.
1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.9L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.73 LSD. 417hp, 369lb/ft
1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 347hp, 295lb/ft
Lots of mods i must say,,, hope you will find a great solution,,, afaik the CP pistons i bought and are in the engine,, are at least very light vs oem i put them on weight vs oem and was stunned how big the difference was,, cant remember how much,, but perhaps the rotating mass,,,,x 6 was +/- 1000 gram
Sveinbjörn Hrafnsson
E30 CABRIO V12 M70B50 ///
ALPINA B10 BITURBO 346 @ 507
ULTIMA Evolution
Contacts
http://alpina.123.is/pictures/
Hey Svein,
Running such big catcams means we have a few issues. The race engine builder just builds race and drag engines. That's all his company does. We will completely break the engine down and balance everything. Did you re-balance the crank to suit the new pistons? The counter balances may be way too heavy. I'm assuming you decked the block as it was perfectly square. I'm assuming the head was decked. We decked the cam box. Am I right in assuming that (the 3 deckings) should equal about 1mm of decking in total? That should take compression to 11:1. With the thinner gasket we should be able to get closer to 11.25:1. We'll measure the current gasket and see.
I'm very happy with the engine. We want to spin to 7750rpm so we will get this right now, to exact race/drag car tolerances and levels of balancing. I think the current issue is us as we did not have the pffffft sound before we put the catcams in. And as we put the high performance valves and springs in as well and re-shimmed the valves ourselves I think we just missed something.
This is a fantastic engine and deserves the very best effort. As we have all of the parts, doing a complete race break down and rebuild is not overly expensive.
And let's be fair, how often does an engine get looked after by two such good looking and intelligent gentlemen? One from Iceland and one from Australia?
How are your LS engines going in E30's????
1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.9L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.73 LSD. 417hp, 369lb/ft
1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 347hp, 295lb/ft
I just checked what gasket we were running and it was the VAC Motorsport head gasket kit. No idea what thickness but assuming nothing super thin. We should have some room to play here re increasing compression.
1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.9L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.73 LSD. 417hp, 369lb/ft
1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 347hp, 295lb/ft
Engine in pieces. We'll CC the head and check capacity and compression.
Bore is 95mm and stroke 90mm confirmed.
We have a small crack in a bolt hole near a water gallery in the block. It does not and cannot go through to a bore but we will get it metal stitched now. Won't effect engine performance.
We'll blueprint and balance everything now. Using current parts it will be put back together like a race engine to exact tolerances and perfect balance.
1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.9L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.73 LSD. 417hp, 369lb/ft
1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 347hp, 295lb/ft
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