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Thread: S38B38 into my 1977 e12 chassis'd 633CSi

  1. #201
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    ALPINA B10 BITURBO
    FYI,,,, to recognize a S38 vs M30,, from miles away,, is very simple,,

    have a look at the exhaust size on the engine,, and where the oil is draining from the cylinder head.. it goes directly to the outer wall on M30 ((inside the head))

    but on S38,, there is an extra pipe that goes from behind of the head and in to the right size of the block,,

    shown here,,,,,,,

    its between cyl 5 and 6 on the block,, and looks like a turbo oil-flange,,, THIS IS NOT ON a M30,,,,,,,, and yes,, there is a 3.5 stamp on the block,, i remember that when i rebuilt it,,, but its a true S38 block,, and true B38 crank,,,

    ,,,,,,,,,,, S38


    M30B35,,,,,,,,B10BT thats the extra oil and water input
    Sveinbjrn Hrafnsson

    E30 CABRIO V12 M70B50 ///
    ALPINA B10 BITURBO 346 @ 507
    E34 550 V12 JML
    Contacts
    http://alpina.123.is/pictures/

  2. #202
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    Hey Svein,

    I know the block is an S38B36 taken to an S38B38. We've measured the internals and it is a true S38B38 inside and confirmed the first overbore. I'm happy with this as if you put this block next to a B38 block and measured them up, there is no difference. A bit like buying a billeted block. I don't know if it was a replacement for a blown B38 block (which I hear is possible, even from the factory) or built to a B38 on purpose but for all performance effect, it is a true B38 block. We are now chasing hats that secure the shims internally so we can go to 7800rpm without throwing a shim and destroying the head. We were going to go shimless hats but this means every time we want to adjust valves we need to take the head off, and get a new head gasket.

    Svein, I'm happy with the engine. Bar the small crack in the block which is now fixed, the engine is all good inside. We are fiddling with compression as we want to be between 11.5 to 12.5 to 1. We've decked the block, head and cam box so compression is already close to 11.5:1.

    The head and cam box needed to be machined flat. The CATCAMS would not spin properly as the cam box was bent a little like a banana (So lifting at each end by 1mm - stock issue with overheating as per the Alpha-N chip lean run you had). This is fine for stock cams and will have no effect so I did not notice it before but CATCAMS are hollow and weigh half as much so were flexing and not rotating properly. The CATCAMS are seriously light. The high strength valves and springs do not add any weight to the top end.

    The engine will be built to race accuracy. Blue printed and balanced. The pistons you supplied are fine but with the high lift cam the valves were just touching the sides for the flycuts. The flycuts are deep enough, just half a millimetre out of place. All fixed now.

    The engine will be bench dyno'd so we will get a true hp reading. No inflated wheel dyno divided by whatever it takes to reach high hp.

    So basically, I've taken the engine you built and had a specialist race engine builder turn it into a high cam ( I only did this as my mechanic had that unfortunate accident where he tapped all of the valves and we needed to rebuild it anyway), higher compression race endurance engine. Something that is street-able. Any bigger in the cam and it would be nasty on the street.

    So all good. I am unhappy with the time everything takes but who isn't. Question. Who is the best supplier of gaskets for this engine? I need a complete engine gasket kit and will need to specify the head gasket thickness to suit the compression we aim for.

    Thanks again.
    1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.8L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.45 LSD. 390hp, 331lb/ft
    1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 300hp, 277lb/ft

  3. #203
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    I would do oem,,, Elring,,,,,,,,,,, Victor Reinz,,, but there is also an alternative,,,

    i used ATHENA,,, copper ring headgasket,, but i dont know if that suits your CR,,,, these headgaskets are often special made for F/I engines,, and they are one of the best IMO

    Anri mentioned MLS,,, and i for sure agree with him,,, steel block and alloy head is a bad MLS combo,, special for IL6 BMW engines,, i actually don think i have heard of any engine that have as bad reputation for MLS use as BMW IL6 steel block,,,

    athenaparts.com,,,, give them an email,,, and ask if they can supply a gasket for you,,, the rubber etc etc is one of the best i have seen in any gaskets so far,,, REALLY good stuff
    Sveinbjrn Hrafnsson

    E30 CABRIO V12 M70B50 ///
    ALPINA B10 BITURBO 346 @ 507
    E34 550 V12 JML
    Contacts
    http://alpina.123.is/pictures/

  4. #204
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    It looks like I have an MLS gasket worked out. Going for a 70 thou gasket (1.7mm thick) that will give us a compression of (post a complete measure up) around 11.05:1. I'm happy with this. The previous gasket was 1.8mm thick.

    We found an oil ring that was folded over. New rings on their way.

    The dummy build is complete and everything has been balanced and blue printed now. We've CC'd everything and know the capacity, volumes and compression. Crank is in and bedded and will not come out.

    Hats with internal shims should be here early next week.

    Another top end dummy build next week prior to a final check and then the last working build. We will then hook up the dyno and get the megasquirt on and running. The engine will go into the car fully tuned and operational and with a working megasquirt.

    More to come.
    1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.8L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.45 LSD. 390hp, 331lb/ft
    1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 300hp, 277lb/ft

  5. #205
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    M3evo-Twin Screw/M635csi
    Nearly there.
    Lets hope it's smooth sailing.

    11:1 Nice comp that will feed the cam and should make good power.
    Shoud take bets on what it's going to make.

    I bid 425 flywheel bhp
    BMWs
    74 2002 2.3ltr
    84 E24 M635csi
    86 E23 735i
    94 E34 540i/6 SC 14psi
    97 E36 M3 euro SC

    OTHERS
    02 Landrover D2 td5, 08 Holden Ute 6.0, 11 Audi S5 APR


  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by GazM3 View Post
    Nearly there.
    Lets hope it's smooth sailing.

    11:1 Nice comp that will feed the cam and should make good power.
    Shoud take bets on what it's going to make.

    I bid 425 flywheel bhp
    Your bid has been accepted. And torque? In lbft or Nm will be accepted
    To help. Had confirmation from the engine builder today that the engine has gone from 3795cc to 3842cc (does this make it a 639 CSi?). So chance for a little more torque. Stock figures were 250kw and 400nm (340hp and 295 lbft).

    I'd say 405hp and 310 lb/ft. Note that we may spin up to 7,750 rpm to 8,250 rpm. Cannot give a heads up on the rpm as that will be up to the engine builder on the day.



    Betting Table (@ flywheel)

    Name / hp / torque (lbft)

    Josh (me) / 405 / 310

    Gaz / 425 / ?

    Bert / 385 / ?
    Last edited by Shipper; 09-14-2017 at 11:28 PM.
    1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.8L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.45 LSD. 390hp, 331lb/ft
    1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 300hp, 277lb/ft

  7. #207
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    81 euro 635, 4.4 X5
    As I said to you before 380 -390
    81 Euro undergoing total nut and bolt restoration
    pictures at: flickr.com/photos/bertsphotos

  8. #208
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    Lol guess the power game.

    Those heads josh flow the equiverlant of 470bhp at 500thou lift. With the big cam adjusted properly and no major restrictions on the intake and exhaust it may make a little more than we think. Comps prob a little low but still 11:1 u should be able to give it some timing.

    Be interesting to see what power it makes with open trumpets vs the plenum. Most of the big power m88/ s38 race engines ran open trumpet. It would almost be worth running open for the sound alone!
    BMWs
    74 2002 2.3ltr
    84 E24 M635csi
    86 E23 735i
    94 E34 540i/6 SC 14psi
    97 E36 M3 euro SC

    OTHERS
    02 Landrover D2 td5, 08 Holden Ute 6.0, 11 Audi S5 APR


  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipper View Post
    Betting Table (@ flywheel)

    Name / hp / torque (lbft)

    Josh (me) / 405 / 310

    Gaz / 425 / ?

    Bert / 385 / ?
    Hi Josh,

    I can tell you are fast forwarding
    and overthinking it already.

    Let's concentrate of building a
    very Rigid engine because this
    time you don't want any error
    and the most important for very
    golden long time!

    Your coin is over 20k USD
    and you don't want to end up like
    few people I know whom spent
    the national debt and are so afraid
    to push their engines because the
    fear of possible failure.

    Do engines fail or ware out absolutely,
    and I hope you do get Warranty from
    your engine rebuilder.

    Concentrate on Reliability and then
    what ever it makes it makes, S38 3.8
    choice in general is the one to ware
    the most and I see you have not done
    very key component to make it long
    lasting concept. With your aimed
    RPM then let's see how long the
    rings, bore at the bottom will survive...

    You don't want to end up with the
    most expensive S38-B38 in pieces
    in existence because the engine is
    not put properly with the proper
    knowledge.

    Regards
    Anri
    Last edited by sofiabghome; 09-17-2017 at 10:45 AM.
    - E24 M6 Shwartz/Sparco Race Track Toy-1 S38-B36
    - E24 M6 Shwartz/Tan- Daily driver.
    - E24 M6 Shwartz/Grey- Collectible 49k miles 100% all original unrestored show car.
    - E24 M6 Royal Blue/Lotus White- Restoration project.
    - E30 M3 Diamand Shwartz with euro S38-B38 3.8 project.
    - E28 M5 Black/Nature
    - E31 '97 840Ci Black/Black CSI complete futures my cruiser soon S62-B50 6spd.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTV4asC3Bp0&t=14s
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyh...yUW-Q/featured

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by GazM3 View Post
    Lol guess the power game.

    Those heads josh flow the equiverlant of 470bhp at 500thou lift. With the big cam adjusted properly and no major restrictions on the intake and exhaust it may make a little more than we think. Comps prob a little low but still 11:1 u should be able to give it some timing.

    Be interesting to see what power it makes with open trumpets vs the plenum. Most of the big power m88/ s38 race engines ran open trumpet. It would almost be worth running open for the sound alone!
    Open trumpets sound brilliant. I have them on my E3 racer. Nothing sounds as good. Almost F1-esk.
    1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.8L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.45 LSD. 390hp, 331lb/ft
    1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 300hp, 277lb/ft

  11. #211
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    It is a slow slow slog but we are even closer.

    For some reason the hats with internal shims are still not delivered and the machinist has had the cam gears for 8 weeks and done nothing. We may need to take them elsewhere.

    Apart from that, most of the gaskets are in, awaiting front of engine, intake and exhaust gaskets. These are being ordered from Pelican.

    Some shots of the engine with the bottom end together, balanced and blue printed. The engine dyno my car will be hooked up to is also shown.

    Note also the crack between the oil and water galleries has been repaired. Drilled out, sheathed and then two welds. You can just pick it out. Looks like a good repair.

    20170928_163123.jpg

    20170928_163425.jpg

    20170928_163442.jpg

    20170928_163457.jpg

    20170928_163526.jpg
    1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.8L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.45 LSD. 390hp, 331lb/ft
    1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 300hp, 277lb/ft

  12. #212
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    All remaining gaskets now ordered from Pelican Parts.

    Awaiting delivery.
    1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.8L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.45 LSD. 390hp, 331lb/ft
    1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 300hp, 277lb/ft

  13. #213
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    My new gauge cluster ready for shipping. Let's test that 300km/h speed limit. I think the poor air flow will cut in at around 260km/h plus.

    gauge cluster.jpg

    I had to wait while Ivo placed the M-Power symbol below the tacho.

    Separate to this. Engine together and awaiting specialist to wire in the Megasquirt. Hoping for his arrival Monday Feb 12 and the bench dyno that week.

    And separate to this "separate to this", my E3 racer engine is ready at the same time (which is a pain cash-flow wise). Completed by Pip Barker, engine builder for the JPS 6'er racing team. It's an M30B35 but, original Group A and Group C parts. Head over to the E3 section to take a look. We are hoping for 350hp plus on triple 45 DCOE's and choked to 41mm (plus re-jetted).

    Pip's engine running in write-up is there as well.

    The E3 weighs 1230kg (prior to me trimming it shortly) and at 350hp (Pip says that later on with triple 48 DCOE's 370hp is not unrealistic, it is a 3.6 litre and runs a massive CAT cam and original Group C pistons) the power to weight ratio is 285hp/tonne, or 212kw/tonne.

    To put that into perspective a new BMW M2 has a power to weight ratio of 227hp/tonne or 170kw/tonne. So my racer will be way way way up there with a 25% better power to weight ratio.

    More to come on the 6'er in the coming weeks as finally, after 4 fricken years, the S38B38 goes back in, well really for the second time.
    1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.8L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.45 LSD. 390hp, 331lb/ft
    1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 300hp, 277lb/ft

  14. #214
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    Hi,

    Nice you got the 300km/h unit,
    it will match the power.

    Any pics or specs during the
    progress towards the S38 finish. ?

    How is your shim under project
    comes alone ?

    Regards,
    Anri
    - E24 M6 Shwartz/Sparco Race Track Toy-1 S38-B36
    - E24 M6 Shwartz/Tan- Daily driver.
    - E24 M6 Shwartz/Grey- Collectible 49k miles 100% all original unrestored show car.
    - E24 M6 Royal Blue/Lotus White- Restoration project.
    - E30 M3 Diamand Shwartz with euro S38-B38 3.8 project.
    - E28 M5 Black/Nature
    - E31 '97 840Ci Black/Black CSI complete futures my cruiser soon S62-B50 6spd.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTV4asC3Bp0&t=14s
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyh...yUW-Q/featured

  15. #215
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    We've used the hats that retain the shims so no shims flying out at high rpm.

    I'll get more photos next time I'm out at the engine builders. Post tuning and with hp results I'll put up the final complete engine build.
    1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.8L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.45 LSD. 390hp, 331lb/ft
    1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 300hp, 277lb/ft

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipper View Post
    We've used the hats that retain the shims so no shims flying out at high rpm.
    Josh,

    I am bit confused by your descriptions.
    When you say hats what do you mean ?

    You should know that their are 2 type of
    Buckets 1) uses Shim Under (small plates)
    2) Lash Caps is the one that sits on top
    of the valve stem.

    Which one did you chose ?, I am just
    curious because your valves are cut already
    and how you purchased the engine from Svein
    for Shim Over the bucket std. set up.

    Regards,
    Anri
    Last edited by sofiabghome; 02-02-2018 at 11:24 PM.
    - E24 M6 Shwartz/Sparco Race Track Toy-1 S38-B36
    - E24 M6 Shwartz/Tan- Daily driver.
    - E24 M6 Shwartz/Grey- Collectible 49k miles 100% all original unrestored show car.
    - E24 M6 Royal Blue/Lotus White- Restoration project.
    - E30 M3 Diamand Shwartz with euro S38-B38 3.8 project.
    - E28 M5 Black/Nature
    - E31 '97 840Ci Black/Black CSI complete futures my cruiser soon S62-B50 6spd.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTV4asC3Bp0&t=14s
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyh...yUW-Q/featured

  17. #217
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    I'm pretty sure it is the lash cap. I'll drop in on the engine builder next weekend. The engine builder, Tony, specialises in high rpm race and drag engines. An issue is shims flying out at 8500rpm plus. The caps sit over the shims and prevent them flying out. The engine is built for a 9000rpm redline although the dyno will give us a great idea on where to stop her. The cams are warm race so I'm not expecting to need to rev too high.
    1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.8L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.45 LSD. 390hp, 331lb/ft
    1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 300hp, 277lb/ft

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shipper View Post
    I'm pretty sure it is the lash cap
    Hi,

    What Lash Cap Brand did you buy ?

    Regards,
    Anri
    - E24 M6 Shwartz/Sparco Race Track Toy-1 S38-B36
    - E24 M6 Shwartz/Tan- Daily driver.
    - E24 M6 Shwartz/Grey- Collectible 49k miles 100% all original unrestored show car.
    - E24 M6 Royal Blue/Lotus White- Restoration project.
    - E30 M3 Diamand Shwartz with euro S38-B38 3.8 project.
    - E28 M5 Black/Nature
    - E31 '97 840Ci Black/Black CSI complete futures my cruiser soon S62-B50 6spd.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTV4asC3Bp0&t=14s
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyh...yUW-Q/featured

  19. #219
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    ALPINA B10 BITURBO
    But why revving so high ?? isnt the power well enough now ?
    Sveinbjrn Hrafnsson

    E30 CABRIO V12 M70B50 ///
    ALPINA B10 BITURBO 346 @ 507
    E34 550 V12 JML
    Contacts
    http://alpina.123.is/pictures/

  20. #220
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    The engine revs so high as this is the level to which it has been built. No other reason and no real reason to drive it above 6500rpm. Simply put. The engine was balanced, blue printed and put together by hand by a drag engine specialist. So it revs and revs.
    1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.8L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.45 LSD. 390hp, 331lb/ft
    1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 300hp, 277lb/ft

  21. #221
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    Nice to see u moving forward. Hope u can get it on the road soon and stop spending and start enjoying. U know that’s not going to happen tho lol. That old e12 based chassis is going to need some loving with 400bhp to service. We know the engine is going to make some power but I’m not quite sure that u are prepared for the amount of torque the b38 will make.

    S38 above 7500 is what’s it’s all about. The architecture of the engine is designed for high rpm.
    BMWs
    74 2002 2.3ltr
    84 E24 M635csi
    86 E23 735i
    94 E34 540i/6 SC 14psi
    97 E36 M3 euro SC

    OTHERS
    02 Landrover D2 td5, 08 Holden Ute 6.0, 11 Audi S5 APR


  22. #222
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    It's a long journey Gaz. Nearly there though. Just awaiting dyno time now. Pip Barker has finished my Group C M30 engine. Ready to be picked up as well. Photos in me E3 posts. I was talking to a BMW guy in QLD who mentioned our mutual BMW acquaintance from MELB had stuffed up someone with a 540. Was not you was it?
    Last edited by Shipper; 02-14-2018 at 05:02 PM.
    1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.8L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.45 LSD. 390hp, 331lb/ft
    1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 300hp, 277lb/ft

  23. #223
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    Nah 540 is running pretty good. It’s been nearly 12 months of bug fixing. Just got to replace the clutch slave as it’s weeping and the take up point creeps dangerously close to the end of the pedal no biggie. When it’s gripping properly the power is very strong. Need an 8 rib belt and once done tune it properly with some more boost. Haven’t dynoed it yet but it makes my 400+rwhp work Ute feel slow. Need to get the Ac working in it as it’s very hot in the cabin in summer.
    BMWs
    74 2002 2.3ltr
    84 E24 M635csi
    86 E23 735i
    94 E34 540i/6 SC 14psi
    97 E36 M3 euro SC

    OTHERS
    02 Landrover D2 td5, 08 Holden Ute 6.0, 11 Audi S5 APR


  24. #224
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    My daily driver, a Renault Megane RS265 ran over a truck rear light cluster at 110km/h on the highway and bent its chassis. Written off and without a car this would have been the perfect time to drive my 633CSi. So after telling the engine builder I'd had enough of waiting I got really piddled off that my 633 was not ready and went and bought this as a new daily. Delivered March 24. https://www.caradvice.com.au/587360/...kjucdgtz5mw5el
    1977 633 CSi RHD Euro. S38B38 3.8L M5 Transplant. 5 Speed Getrag Dogleg. 3.45 LSD. 390hp, 331lb/ft
    1971 3.0CS E3 2dr Alpina Special Coupe Racer, 300hp, 277lb/ft

  25. #225
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    1986 e24 635csi, 1999 Saab 93, 1992 Saab 9000 turb
    Quote Originally Posted by Shipper View Post
    My daily driver, a Renault Megane RS265 ran over a truck rear light cluster at 110km/h on the highway and bent its chassis. Written off and without a car this would have been the perfect time to drive my 633CSi. So after telling the engine builder I'd had enough of waiting I got really piddled off that my 633 was not ready and went and bought this as a new daily. Delivered March 24. https://www.caradvice.com.au/587360/...kjucdgtz5mw5el
    Cool little car.

    Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

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