Feeler: Who would be interested in a S54 Tune?

[Z3speed4me]

Currently in the early workings of having a VERY respected vendor work on a tune for the S54.

Many of you are unaware that there are dozens of configurations of the S54 motor between the MZ3 and the E46 M3; however each tuner currently on the market is essentially flashing Z's with the same generic base map configuration as the M3, when they are not "exactly" the same.

I will not get into specifics yet, this may take another ~2 weeks at minimum to even grow into something (or potentially nothing), but I would like to get an idea of who out here may even be interested in one of the below options. We are going to try and specifically work on customized setups for as many of these as possible. If there are any volunteers that would like to possibly assist with dyno time in the Central NJ area, please PM me for some extra information (specifically a bone stock, or just catback only S54 car).

~Ken~

[fmcfad01]

In.

What Ken is talking about is having someone who knows what they're doing determine where the 18HP handicap is (333HP in the M3 vs. our 315HP). We've both recently found that throwing headers and cats at the car with an M3 tune does not net M3 numbers. We'd like to level the playing field with the M3 crowd. Tuner's saying, "the Z's just make less power" is unacceptable.

Here is a thread that shows how much people have learned about our DME/ECU:
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...p?p=1065794649

[moonvan]

I don’t have an S54 but this is a great idea. I have seen a lot of factory tuning differences between the S52 in the coupe/roady vs. M3 so there is a fair amount of potential for this to work well with the S54s.

[Randy Forbes]

In.

What Ken is talking about is having someone who knows what they're doing determine where the 18HP handicap is (333HP in the M3 vs. our 315HP). We've both recently found that throwing headers and cats at the car with an M3 tune does not net M3 numbers. We'd like to level the playing field with the M3 crowd. Tuner's saying, "the Z's just make less power" is unacceptable.

Here is a thread that shows how much people have learned about our DME/ECU:
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...p?p=1065794649

WOW 454 pages (4540 posts!!) of light reading! My head is spinning, and all I did was download the pdf

This is why some people work under cars/engines, and why others poke around inside microprocessors; thank you, now hand me that prybar and plasma torch (I know where I belong, and where I don't...).

I don't mind reading and writing to DMEs, but I'll leave the file manipulations to someone else

I am however, very interested in your (specifically yours and Ken's) findings though, and *I think* I know who your software genie is (called me up the other night to shoot the breeze).

BTW, what exhaust did you settle on, and yes, those were the correct nuts in the E-mail (that I didn't answer... )

[BimmerBreaker]

I don’t have an S54 but this is a great idea. I have seen a lot of factory tuning differences between the S52 in the coupe/roady vs. M3 so there is a fair amount of potential for this to work well with the S54s.

I always thought the Z3 S52's were a bit stronger than the E36 M3's... I figured this was because the S52 was a few years old by the time it made it into the Z3's, and conversely the S54's were first stuck in the Z3 and then later in the E46 M3 they were tuned up and made more power, to keep them fresh. I could easily be mistaken though, I have never dynoed the cars back to back, but have driven many E36 M3's and many S52 Z3 M's

I think a tune to get the full potential out of these engines would be great. With the same tune E46 M3 vs Z3M, do they make the same power?

And just curious, are there ANY CSL airboxes that fit the Z3 chassis?

[E.Hands]

And I was just thinking "I need Randy to break this down for us layman" It's way over my head but I know enough to see good things coming from a better understanding of these codes. Maybe they can find out just what makes Estoril Coupes so much faster!

[Z3speed4me]

I have a Supersprint on the car right now, he has a B&B still until this potential software situation is settled; I saw minimal to no difference seen after I changed from a B&B previously.

Yes the "genie" is the only man that is even physically capable of these things... but we will see how this unfolds soon as I will be scheduling some dyno time in the near future.

Hopefully some more people are interested in this tuner's potential outcomes that we are entertaining and hoping for. Once we have definitive results, they will be posted and maybe more people will jump on board. For the time being I am just hoping some of the S54 brethren will show interest in the opportunity we are trying to provide.

- - - Updated - - -

With the same tune E46 M3 vs Z3M, do they make the same power?

And just curious, are there ANY CSL airboxes that fit the Z3 chassis?

1) NO...
2) Yes...but not easy. Talk to CMM3 directly and find his thread.

[BimmerBreaker]

Interesting. With the same identical hardware, same intake, same headers, an exhaust that flows the same, and an identical tune, do they make identical power? Just curious

I'd be interested, someone I know has a Z3M S54 and would love this.

[fmcfad01]

To elaborate on the e46 M3 vs. z3M making the same power with the same tune, Frank Smith actually flashed a tuned M3 tune on my car and it made about 40HP less than the M3 that was on the dyno before me. I can answer that question with a resounding no.

[AlexP]

Definitely interested.

[Terry F.]

To elaborate on the e46 M3 vs. z3M making the same power with the same tune, Frank Smith actually flashed a tuned M3 tune on my car and it made about 40HP less than the M3 that was on the dyno before me. I can answer that question with a resounding no.

Then doesn't that point to hardware? Same tune, -40hp. Can't be the tune.

Not sure if the proposal makes sense after what you just posted. Or what am I missing?

BTW, wow, 40hp. That is a lot.

Terry

[hexagone]

Yeah, I'm in.

How about remapping the throttle too?

[fmcfad01]

Not necessarily right? Take for example that the e46 M3 has a coolant outlet temp sensor at the outlet of the radiator. Does that reading get used in the DME to affect performance? Does the fact that our cars don't have that sensor matter? Does the M3 tune running on my car look for that temp reading when controlling performance? I made a post about how autologic shows our cars reading -48C at that data point. Did the M3 tune think my car was too cold and run in a protective mode?

These are all questions I've already thought about, and frankly, i had the same thought as you...

Maybe it's a mix of hardware and software...who knows.

Lets find out.

Then doesn't that point to hardware? Same tune, -40hp. Can't be the tune.

Not sure if the proposal makes sense after what you just posted. Or what am I missing?

BTW, wow, 40hp. That is a lot.

Terry

[Z3speed4me]

Yeah, I'm in.

How about remapping the throttle too?

For the guy doing this... that should be an easy part.


We shall see soon with my car being the guinea pig. I will dyno exactly as I stand now to provide a baseline comparison of my current setup, then we shall see what types of potential updates/improvements can be made, and go from there. All parties are hopeful that there is some potential still on the table.

Worst case scenario, we may not see a significant bump, but at an experienced professional will analyze our ECU configuration and create and offer the community the safest and most reliable tune calibration ever offered for our cars.

[Terry F.]

Not necessarily right? Take for example that the e46 M3 has a coolant outlet temp sensor at the outlet of the radiator. Does that reading get used in the DME to affect performance? Does the fact that our cars don't have that sensor matter? Does the M3 tune running on my car look for that temp reading when controlling performance? I made a post about how autologic shows our cars reading -48C at that data point. Did the M3 tune think my car was too cold and run in a protective mode?

These are all questions I've already thought about, and frankly, i had the same thought as you...

Maybe it's a mix of hardware and software...who knows.

Lets find out.

Interesting info. I really hope it gets resolved. I never knew the effort existed to this extent. It would bug me too to leave up to 40hp on the table versus an M3.

Is the intake path different between the two cars? From the air cleaner to the intake? Now you have me thinking......and I don't have an S54. ;-)

Terry

[lokijibber]

Totally in. And local. Let me know what I can do to help.

Currently have headers and exhaust, but stock intake and tune.

[Shoe Coupe]

gary said something about the intake runners being smaller on the z3 than e46?? maybe that has something to do with it?

[Mach Tuck]

[Bcar]

gary said something about the intake runners being smaller on the z3 than e46?? maybe that has something to do with it?

The intake airbox is different on the Coupe vs. the M3, but I dont see that being a 40hp difference! Ive seen E46 M3s make 20hp differences on the same dyno.


p.s. interested in a final tune! but am not on the east coast...

[E.Hands]

Very interesting. How does the Z4M dyno compared to the E46 M3?

[fmcfad01]

Very interesting. How do the Z4M dyno compared to the E46 M3?

If my memory serves me correctly, the z4 M is more similar to the M3 than our power levels.

[Z3speed4me]

The intake airbox is different on the Coupe vs. the M3

MZ4 is closer to E46 but besides the note that they do rev higher, and have a larger intake setup than the Z3; they also have a totally different ECU than we do, and it is way more advanced and complicated to modify in many many ways. This is a fact. If it was not, there would be way more FI systems for those cars out, as it would simply be a hardware tweak to some piping and parts fitment.


Yes the stock airbox is slightly smaller on the MZ3; arguably however, our ram air effect from the lower bumper could possibly outweigh that difference from the M3 as their inlet is coming in by the kidney from a smaller volumetric space. I don't have experience in engineering intake systems obviously, so this could be a null point. The intake manifold is the same by the way; the runners are no different as the part numbers for both cars are exact.

The Z cars equipped with CSL style intakes always make less than E46's, every time. I have yet to see an MZ3 outpower an E46 on any dyno with the same/similar modifications. Thus with these potential "restrictions" eliminated and improved, there must still be something causing our cars to still make less power... if it's not the hardware, software is all that is left.

If you put both motors on an engine dyno out of the car, with the same intake and exhaust or none for that matter and rev them to 6000, 7600, or 8100; they should in theory be the same within a very small and acceptable +- ~1% ...if not smaller... variance as the physical motor and all of it's internals are no different between the two cars.


Regardless, we will have findings on at least my car in the coming weeks and there will be as detailed of a results posting as I can conjure up.

[BimmerBreaker]

I'm thinking that coolant outlet temp sensor has a lot do with this. Eager to hear more results, would be great to "unlock" the power these cars should have come with from the factory. I was under the impression bumping the rev limiter basically got these engines there but it seems that is definitely not the case!

Could one wire a coolant outlet temp sensor onto the Z3M's or would the ECU have nowhere to "read" it?

[fmcfad01]

That was just one example of hardware differences between the cars. I'm sure there are others as well as software differences.

I was told by rf900rkw that - Pins 38 and 39 of X60004 which are labeled "unused" on the Z3M version are the pins for the coolant outlet temp. You can easily find the part numbers for the sensor and the socket to wire it up. The next problem is, our radiator outlet hose does not have a place to put that sensor. Furthermore, even if you buy the m3 hose, there is no way to connect it to our radiator. I'm not sure where you could put it other than JB Weld it to the radiator and hope it gets hot...

Then, even if you go as far as to do that, who knows if our ECU even interprets the signal from it...

- - - Updated - - -

So I actually just went through the DME pins outs for our cars vs. the e46 M3 and they are drastically different.

I forget if I posted it already, but the M3 tune on my car caused cruise control not to work. Hitting the stalk actually toggled the yellow tire pressure monitor light.

Well, that's not the only difference. The O2 signals, Vanos Controls, Camshaft Position signals, etc are all different pins. It's amazing my car even drove...even the brake light pins are different...wonder if they were even working.

So with that said, if that much is different between the ECU's, it might be safe to say that making the changes that work on M3's in the same locations as the M3 may actually not achieve their intended purpose...and could have ill effects.

I found some other documentation that says the radiator outlet temp controls the aux fan...so that may be eliminated as a possible candidate.

[Ronan1]

I had this done to a S54 M Coupe and the gains were very noticeable. Primarily low down the car had much more instant shove. I never did a before / after dyno but it certainly felt like 10/15 lbs/ft of torque in the low rpms and honestly it was hard to discern the difference in top end cause the car just pulled so much faster.

The throttle is remapped with the fueling, allowing for more fueling at lower rpms. The remap made the car quicker than a stock E46 M3 for sure through the gears.

Highly recommended modification.