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Thread: Up before six

  1. #26
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    tvjake2 is offline SoCalEights - CA BMW CCA Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
    Thanks.

    Instead, this project demonstrates how a M62TUB44 is an easy diy swap into the 840, and I would expect this could become popular as these cars get still older.
    I was thinking the same thing as I was reading through the writeup. 'Nice to have some down the road options. This is an amazing write up. Thanks much for doing it.

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    Because the s62 has been done to death? Kidding but sometimes unique is... Unique.

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  3. #28
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    why not run the stock b46 computers? compared to what youve done dealing with the EWS is a walk in the park..
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  4. #29
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    where did you get? Have u gotten the horsepower up to 34x's? Reason why im asking is because I just bought a 840ci im pretty sure i got ripped and rapped on the deal tho but time will tell... I have been studying the e31 840 on the forums for ever as well as the 850 and I have been looking to purchase a dinan supercharger for the 840ci... I found a 2002 x5 4.6is with a dinan stage 3 supercharger and was wondering if i Can make it fit on my 1994 m60 840ci? Can someone please let me know. I live in san diego and need to make sure whatever upgrades I do will pass smog... I was looking into the eaton m112 supercharger due to cost and how it fits right in the V of the engine... Anyone have that installed here in Cali and pass smog with it?

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by perj42 View Post
    Can someone please let me know. I live in san diego and need to make sure whatever upgrades I do will pass smog... I was looking into the eaton m112 supercharger due to cost and how it fits right in the V of the engine... Anyone have that installed here in Cali and pass smog with it?
    Almost no supercharger kit will pass the "visual inspection" component of the CA smog test, even if the actual emissions figures are passing. Seen a lot of internet talk about those Jaguar-sourced Eaton M112 superchargers being adapted to BMW V8s but there isn't much real-world driving with them. Passing smog is one thing, but honestly the whole setup is is more fantasy than reality - especially with all the fabrication and variables/tuning/etc. The Dinan setup with the centrifugal blower would be your best bet.

    That said, I supercharged my E46 330Xi with the ESS Twinscrew (purchased brand new directly from them as a kit) years ago, and with all the technical support, engineering considerations, installation instructions, and a warranty, that engine needed constant attention from that day forth. If you want to actually enjoy owning an E31, I would skip the homebrew forced-induction plans.
    Last edited by olinjohnston; 05-21-2017 at 03:08 AM.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by perj42 View Post
    where did you get? Have u gotten the horsepower up to 34x's? Reason why im asking is because I just bought a 840ci im pretty sure i got ripped and rapped on the deal tho but time will tell... I have been studying the e31 840 on the forums for ever as well as the 850 and I have been looking to purchase a dinan supercharger for the 840ci... I found a 2002 x5 4.6is with a dinan stage 3 supercharger and was wondering if i Can make it fit on my 1994 m60 840ci? Can someone please let me know. I live in san diego and need to make sure whatever upgrades I do will pass smog... I was looking into the eaton m112 supercharger due to cost and how it fits right in the V of the engine... Anyone have that installed here in Cali and pass smog with it?
    So the Dinan supercharger kit you are looking for needs to be from an E34 non vanos 540i, it will have a carb sticker indicating 840i as one of the included cars then visual or other inspection does not matter.
    No other supercharger kit is smog legal in California.

  7. #32
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    All I can say is holy shit!
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  8. #33
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    looking at the eaton m112 pictures it looks pretty hidden in the V of the engine underneath the cover... and I have access to a sticker for the dinan supercharger... if they ask is it supercharged cant i show them the dinan one? I seen a powerdyne here local same one used in the dinan kit and it said it was a dinan powerdyne for a e36 now if I was able to fabricate the bracket for it or if someone sent me the CAD files or whatever there called and i was able to make a bracket for the powerdyne since its the same one for the e34 and e31 m60 would i be able to pass smog if i paid for the dinan tune or got someone to tune it for me?
    The smog lady doesnt seem to educated shes a sweat young girl.... and olinjohnston is the dinan kit good for daily use or would u say thats no good either? Also I found a company selling m6x bracket for the ROTrex superharger and cant find any info on anyone running it on the forums just on youtube... ANyone have any info on the rotrex supercharger on the m6x? thanks

    - - - Updated - - -

    Its my everyday car thats why i ask....

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by perj42 View Post
    looking at the eaton m112 pictures it looks pretty hidden in the V of the engine underneath the cover... and I have access to a sticker for the dinan supercharger... if they ask is it supercharged cant i show them the dinan one? I seen a powerdyne here local same one used in the dinan kit and it said it was a dinan powerdyne for a e36 now if I was able to fabricate the bracket for it or if someone sent me the CAD files or whatever there called and i was able to make a bracket for the powerdyne since its the same one for the e34 and e31 m60 would i be able to pass smog if i paid for the dinan tune or got someone to tune it for me?
    The smog lady doesnt seem to educated shes a sweat young girl.... and olinjohnston is the dinan kit good for daily use or would u say thats no good either? Also I found a company selling m6x bracket for the ROTrex superharger and cant find any info on anyone running it on the forums just on youtube... ANyone have any info on the rotrex supercharger on the m6x? thanks

    - - - Updated - - -

    Its my everyday car thats why i ask....
    Yes, that is exactly what I would have done if I had an 840.

  10. #35
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    dancerst is offline life is a dance... BMW CCA Member
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    I'm running Rotrex in my e36 M52. I like it. Very compact and quiet.

    I'm thinking on boosting my e31 m60, but not sure if I want screws or centrifugal supercharger...

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by perj42 View Post
    where did you get? Have u gotten the horsepower up to 34x's? Reason why im asking is because I just bought a 840ci im pretty sure i got ripped and rapped on the deal tho but time will tell... I have been studying the e31 840 on the forums for ever as well as the 850 and I have been looking to purchase a dinan supercharger for the 840ci... I found a 2002 x5 4.6is with a dinan stage 3 supercharger and was wondering if i Can make it fit on my 1994 m60 840ci? Can someone please let me know. I live in san diego and need to make sure whatever upgrades I do will pass smog... I was looking into the eaton m112 supercharger due to cost and how it fits right in the V of the engine... Anyone have that installed here in Cali and pass smog with it?
    Quote Originally Posted by olinjohnston View Post
    Almost no supercharger kit will pass the "visual inspection" component of the CA smog test, even if the actual emissions figures are passing. Seen a lot of internet talk about those Jaguar-sourced Eaton M112 superchargers being adapted to BMW V8s but there isn't much real-world driving with them. Passing smog is one thing, but honestly the whole setup is is more fantasy than reality - especially with all the fabrication and variables/tuning/etc. The Dinan setup with the centrifugal blower would be your best bet.

    That said, I supercharged my E46 330Xi with the ESS Twinscrew (purchased brand new directly from them as a kit) years ago, and with all the technical support, engineering considerations, installation instructions, and a warranty, that engine needed constant attention from that day forth. If you want to actually enjoy owning an E31, I would skip the homebrew forced-induction plans.
    Quote Originally Posted by perj42 View Post
    looking at the eaton m112 pictures it looks pretty hidden in the V of the engine underneath the cover... and I have access to a sticker for the dinan supercharger... if they ask is it supercharged cant i show them the dinan one? I seen a powerdyne here local same one used in the dinan kit and it said it was a dinan powerdyne for a e36 now if I was able to fabricate the bracket for it or if someone sent me the CAD files or whatever there called and i was able to make a bracket for the powerdyne since its the same one for the e34 and e31 m60 would i be able to pass smog if i paid for the dinan tune or got someone to tune it for me?
    The smog lady doesnt seem to educated shes a sweat young girl.... and olinjohnston is the dinan kit good for daily use or would u say thats no good either? Also I found a company selling m6x bracket for the ROTrex superharger and cant find any info on anyone running it on the forums just on youtube... ANyone have any info on the rotrex supercharger on the m6x? thanks

    - - - Updated - - -

    Its my everyday car thats why i ask....
    I have the Dinan S2 Supercharger on my 840i (1995 OBDI). It a later version of the Powerdyne kit (ported for cooling) before Dinan switched to Vortech. I thought I would have a lot of issues with the Powerdyne unit but it has been running strong now for (2 years for me) about 10 years. Power is impressive and propels the heavy car well.

    IMG_1069 by JEllis, on Flickr

    I would love to swap it for a Vortech unit one day but there are some good upgrades for this unit and its flow rate is supposedly better at the low boost level I am running.
    INSTAGRAM: jellismotorwerks

  12. #37
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    i found a custom shop that sells bracket and pulley for the m60b40 for rotrex c38 superchargers.. what do u guys think about rotrex c38?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by perj42 View Post
    i found a custom shop that sells bracket and pulley for the m60b40 for rotrex c38 superchargers.. what do u guys think about rotrex c38?
    As I said before, Rotrex are very compact, quiet and efficient blowers. I have C30 on my e36.

    Can you please point to the shop you found?

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by perj42 View Post
    i found a custom shop that sells bracket and pulley for the m60b40 for rotrex c38 superchargers.. what do u guys think about rotrex c38?
    I must have the name of this shop!
    INSTAGRAM: jellismotorwerks

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    wow.... super cool and professional job (looks clean)
    BMW 850 CSI march 1994 (EU spec), SOLD. https://www.classiccars-forsale.com/...94-bmw-850csi/
    BMW 850 CSI november 1994 (EU spec)

  16. #41
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    GUYS sorry havent checked this page in a while. The shop is in europe/russia/poland i believe lol. I found them on facebook. They sell the the bracket and a couple other things needed (belt bla bla etc) for under a grand. If u r serious PM me and I will get u the shops fone number of facebook page....

  17. #42
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    I'm interested in the brackets for my 840ci build. I purchased a whole 2003 jaguar xjr for this purpose.

  18. #43
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    Stepping over all the thread jacks above...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
    Hyper is merely adding in a bus probe, to speak about the unspeakable trouble in the area called apps engineering.
    He does not charge himself any NRE while doing so.
    It was a funny, ironic path to where I am now in the electronics.

    The ETV box I designed back in 2014...



    ...had a bunch of future-proofing features beyond what was necessary to run the M62 vanos.
    Included were a hodgepodge of buses (Datalink, CAN, IBUS, USB) along with several "To Be Determined" (TBD) analog ports that were put to immediate use diagnosing steering hydraulics simultaneous with the engine swap.



    None of these buses were required by the swap and received little attention in the firmware.
    Output was to a character display as my USB firmware had not yet been developed at the time of the engine swap.





    Fast forward to today...



    ...ETV is at rev G, adding in a 2nd CAN port to take on the mission of supporting 6HP tranny ops, and all those unused bus ports now become important and need to be hooked up.



    My version of MID now exists, with the same bus support and direct analog inputs as ETV.
    In fact the Hyperdrive MID and ETV are remarkably similar, just one runs a display, the other has vanos.
    Same code base, just different compile switch.
    The Hyperdrive MID can now go out, query the E31 and/or have ETV do the query and jam info into the MID.

    The (physical) character display is long gone, displaced by a host app that communicates over USB.
    The MID shows up in a virtualized form, connected to the real thing via USB, duplicating screen output and key ops.
    The character display still hangs around in a virtualized style within the app and in fact the ascii stream was merely re-piped from the RS232 port to the USB port.



    ***
    Now we get to the funny-ironic part.
    Way over in GM land, I was planning a powertrain swap on an Astro (LS Vortec 4.3 V6 -> 5.3 V8), and was looking around for a mating 6-speed tranny.
    I got into researching their (GM's) 6L80 and since this design crosses to the ZF 6HP, we concluded it also has the same design whereby the solenoid controller (TCM) is embedded inside the case.

    So for my Astro project, I then got into researching the same (6HP) problem, how to retrofit a newer CAN-based TCM back into an older ECU architecture.

    Came across something called a TCM2650 by PCS at about $1K, and quickly realized that it is the catch-all version of the ETV's app-specific talents.
    Namely, a piggy-back controller that snoops the DME sensor array and then does an operation (vanos, thermostat, egs, etc) based on the state variables.
    One difference is ETV is an existing controller with other (vanos) missions specific to the E31, with tranny support being an extension.
    The other more noteworthy difference is that their tranny configuration software exists, and mine doesn't, yet.

  19. #44
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    tvjake2 is offline SoCalEights - CA BMW CCA Member
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    Destry Rides Again.

  20. #45
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    Seeing a little daylight, re: kitchen remodel, so I've been dabbling in the auto tranny research project.

    It was decided that while we are working out our benchcraft, the initial expenses would be kept relatively low, the shop relatively clean.
    So we are starting off with an existing MBZ 5-spd auto (circa 1997-04) rather than procuring an additional BMW/GM 6-spd auto (cira 2006-15).


    On the bench, the torque convert & tranny is driven by a 1-1/2 hp motor, supplied by a VFD that converts 230V single phase to 3 phase.
    TCM, ECM and shifter by MBZ.
    BMW PPS and pedal linkage shown.


    ETV snoops the ECM <-> TCM CAN messages.
    ETV also commands the VFD via RS485 Modbus, retrieves the motor rpm, generates a crank and cam VR signals to the ECM.
    The clever trick will be to keep both the ECM and TCM out of LHM, so we can get some work done.
    I anticipate having to do many resets using datalink.

    The MBZ shifter linkage provides only PND, then the 432 selection is further recognized electrically by the (MBZ) TCM.

    Single phase outlet to the VFD.


    Three phase cabling between VFD and motor.


    For a (MBZ) vehicle install, we use the Hyperdrive CEFIG ecm and MBZ style PPS, located in the engine bay, cable operated.


    If proceeding further on the bench, a GM 6L50 6-spd from a Cad CTS takes the place of the MBZ 722.6xx.
    In this case an appropriate shifter is an input to ETV, not the embedded TCM.
    Initial target vehicle would be the Aerostar with 3.0 Vulcan (and my EEC-IV), but the tranny rating (330ftlb) would be adequate to get started with a E31 V8 or M70 hookup.

  21. #46
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    A continuation of excellence. Will you be able to offer us some part of this pie, in some form (programing) for our puny little cars.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
    Seeing a little daylight, re: kitchen remodel...
    Why is the daylight always up ahead? Never right where I am.
    ***
    When I got back into the engineering lab I could not get MID rev A to code flash, but ETV revG was still working.
    So I'm now messing around with ETV again, hoping to temporarily gain some analog ports to read steering hydraulics, send data across USB to the laptop.

    First a quick review of cam sensing. The Hall shutter wheels from the M62 and M62TU, almost but no quite the same.
    One fixed phase with respect to the crank shaft rotation, the other, variable phase.
    Not shown, a VR pickup wheel from the M60.



    On the original project, I had to use the actual engine as the platform for controller development.



    Now on the comfort of my personal bench top, an electronic instrument called an Arbitrary Waveform Generator (AWG).



    This is equivalent to an engine in order to develop cam control.
    A benchtop arrangement can also check out obscene boundary conditions impossible to replicate on an actual engine.
    Original project saw here a simple signal generator to create crank teeth, without the 60-2 key, but could only dream of an complex waveform produced by the cams.

    In the pic center, the ETV box from the original project, probably a rev C. Next to it is revG under development.
    On the Windows desktop, we author waveforms for crank and cams, then load them to the AWG which then plays them to its output.
    The output then goes to the ETV but we also send it to a scope for a visual.
    The desktop then completes a circle by doing a screen grab from the scope.

    From there we cut & paste to make pretty pictures and label them to make some interesting points on a car forum.



    At the bottom in red, we have our crank teeth with 60-2 key.
    Above that, all the complex waveforms associated with cams.
    Fyi, in this hacked pic, the bottom two traces were taken directly off the M62B46 while it was being controlled by ETV, cam in full retard.
    Above those two, the traces (M62TU advanced, M62, M60) come from the AWG and so were authored on the desktop.

    The first mission of ETV is to control the phase of the intake cams on the M62TU, depending on RPM and other conditions.
    By reaching over to our benchtop engine, and twisting the knob, the TU's cam phase is varied between retard and advanced (above, middle yellow traces).



    Here we take the waveform in its default retarded position and advance it by 20 degrees (wrt cam, not crank), the max spec for the engine.

    This manual intervention betrays the open-loop nature of our bench top arrangement.
    To close the loop on bench top cam control, ETV commands the AWG's phase over a usb/network connection at the same time it modifies the PWM output to vanos.

    ETV's second mission is to blue-pill the legacy DME's into thinking that the original cam sensing is in place.
    Depending on what year we swap our vanos engine into, we either send out either the fixed-phase M62 Hall signal or the earlier M60 VR signal (top two red traces).

    VR capability was introduced several years back in the petite CSC. Forget, Cam Sense Control?



    ... and then retrofitted to ETV.



    ETV also supports the retrofitting of an ordinary M62 in place of an M60 in an earlier 840 (540 etc), reading the fixed phase Hall sensor and producing a VR signal to the DME (top red trace).

    As hinted in the fab silkscreen, ETV can output a phase-shifted crank signal, which in theory would shift in spark timing.

    The ETV revH now has a RS485 output going to a electrical motor speed controller, 240V 3-phase 1.5hp, suitable for turning an auto tranny on the benchtop.
    This pairs with a port for reading the tiptronic shifter, and a couple CAN ports for talkin' tranny talk.

  23. #48
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    So achieving cam control will enable you to take advantage of full 380hp on that x5 derived engine?

  24. #49
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    No 380 around here.
    Perhaps on some later X5 engine.

    Iirc, the B46 in the X5 4.6iS was good for around 342hp sae.
    In just two dyno sessions I came up with 327 playing just with the cam phase map.

    The difference (327 vs 342) is likely in the Air/Fuel ratio where the e31 DME is stuck lean.
    I had fancied doing an A/F mod but that hasn't happened yet but the option is there.
    That theory would first get tested using some off-the-shelf equipment like the Innovate I have sitting on my shelf.

    ed: This wide-band probe has a narrow band aux output, probably mappable, but I haven't been into the docs yet.


    Another "easy" mod is tossing in the long-throw crank from the B48, which the e52A has running at 375 hp.
    The extra 0.2 liter above the B46 does not explain the difference 342 -> 375, so there may be other items and I suspect cams and more aggressive spark tuning.
    Without these mystery items, and still on the stock DME 5.2, I would expect a 4.8L M62 vanos to do around 345 or about 30 short of an e52A.
    Last edited by Hyper; 01-04-2022 at 11:14 AM. Reason: pic add

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyper View Post
    No 380 around here.
    Perhaps on some later X5 engine.

    Iirc, the B46 in the X5iS was good for around 342hp sae.
    In just two dyno sessions I came up with 327 playing just with the cam phase map.

    The difference (327 vs 342) is likely in the Air/Fuel ratio where the e31 DME is stuck lean.
    I had fancied doing an A/F mod but that hasn't happened yet but the option is there.
    That theory would first get tested using some off-the-shelf equipment like the Innovate I have sitting on my shelf.

    Another "easy" mod is tossing in the long-throw crank from the B48, which the e52A has running at 375 hp.
    The extra 0.2 liter above the B46 does not explain the difference 342 -> 375, so there may be other items and I suspect cams and more aggressive spark tuning.
    Without these mystery items, and still on the stock DME 5.2, I would expect a 4.8L M62 vanos to do around 345 or about 30 short of an e52A.
    Uhhhhhh .... W O W !

    Ultimately, in the big picture what is the objective?

    Can we go get (M60 or M62) 840ci 's and put in S62 engines, (w/ another air filter and ducting etc.) and use what is being developed within this project to be able to run?

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