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Thread: Build Thread: 1991 325ic Restoration + engine swap

  1. #101
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    Amazon sells a PF although the pic is a serpentine. Details are in my build thread...if you can find the AC section
    87 Zinno Cabrio 98k Barn Find. Build thread http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=268987
    87 Lachsilber ETA Time Capsule. bought w 125k from 87yo original owner

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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffnhiscars View Post
    Amazon sells a PF although the pic is a serpentine. Details are in my build thread...if you can find the AC section
    I have read through your amazing thread and keep it handy as a primary source of information for my project! Thanks for your efforts! I have read where some who have ordered that one have received a serpentine one and others got a PF. I am looking at one at rockauto.com that is listed as a PF. What do you think about it?

    www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=3607575&cc=1011698

    I did get the same ac compressor and mounting kit that you used.

    OK, maybe I have too much time on my hands. Why would anyone want to read about repairing a blower housing? It is a distinct possibility that no one else has ever had this problem. At least I told you up front so you can skip this if you like. For the rest of you on the edge of your seats please humor me, after all it is my project.

    Started with this....





    Bought this...


    Cut to size...(Doesn't everybody have a miniature sheet metal shear and brake?)



    Precisely and scientifically locate and drill holes at the exact required spacing along the edges. I used the T.L.A.R. method. (That Looks About Right).


    Shape, fit, glue and attach...


    The plan was to drill holes through the metal and plastic, coat the edges with JB Weld (epoxy) and squeeze together. The epoxy would ooze through the holes acting like rivets. I put small sheet metal screws in a couple of holes to hold the metal strip in place while the epoxy sets...Hmmmm, put more screws in to hold better. I know, I missed one at the top. FWIW, I love JB Weld! It is the best epoxy I have ever used. It is approved by Bell Helicopter Textron for certain repairs on helicopter fuselages and I figure if it is good enough for Bell Helicopter it is good enough for me.
    Last edited by JimBobs 91E30; 11-19-2018 at 11:55 AM.

  3. #103
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    Clutch Pedal Return Spring Question

    There are apparently some differences in the manual pedal box assemblies between the non-airbag and airbag equipped E30's. I am using a pedal box assembly from an airbag model but I have trimmed some of the excess framing not found on the non-airbag models. (Mine is a non-airbag car). One main difference I have seen is the later airbag style has a plastic or composite clutch pedal while the earlier ones have a metal pedal. Both have metal brake pedals.

    There is also a compression spring assembly on the back side of the clutch pedal which holds the pedal in the forward position when the pedal is not depressed. When the pedal is depressed this spring has a break-over point where it adds downward pressure after the pedal reaches a certain point. Some BMW manuals refer to this as a "buffer spring" and there is a lot of discussion about removing this assembly which apparently gives the clutch pedal a smoother, more linear feel. I have not found where anyone has encountered any problems after removing this assembly. One other possible purpose is that this spring assembly ensures that the clutch pedal is fully forward when not depressed. This would make sure that the cruise control cancel switch found on cruise control equipped cars was depressed when the clutch was forward.

    Now for my question...Is there any other clutch pedal return spring besides the one mentioned above, or is the pedal held in the forward position when not depressed by pressure from the clutch master cylinder? I do not see any spring mounting points on the clutch pedal or pedal box assembly for a return spring. Those deleting the compression spring assembly would have to rely on fluid pressure alone to return the pedal. The diagrams on oemparts.com are not clear to me.
    Last edited by JimBobs 91E30; 09-28-2014 at 06:26 PM.

  4. #104
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    Yup I'm getting the parallel flow from rockauto. The one you have is the old serpentine style. The one from rock is like 89.29$ shipped. Vista pro pn 6590. Not bad.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimBobs 91E30 View Post
    There are apparently some differences in the manual pedal box assemblies between the non-airbag and airbag equipped E30's. I am using a pedal box assembly from an airbag model but I have trimmed some of the excess framing not found on the non-airbag models. (Mine is a non-airbag car). One main difference I have seen is the later airbag style has a plastic or composite clutch pedal while the earlier ones have a metal pedal. Both have metal brake pedals.

    There is also a compression spring assembly on the back side of the clutch pedal which holds the pedal in the forward position when the pedal is not depressed. When the pedal is depressed this spring has a break-over point where it adds downward pressure after the pedal reaches a certain point. Some BMW manuals refer to this as a "buffer spring" and there is a lot of discussion about removing this assembly which apparently gives the clutch pedal a smoother, more linear feel. I have not found where anyone has encountered any problems after removing this assembly. One other possible purpose is that this spring assembly ensures that the clutch pedal is fully forward when not depressed. This would make sure that the cruise control cancel switch found on cruise control equipped cars was depressed when the clutch was forward.

    Now for my question...Is there any other clutch pedal return spring besides the one mentioned above, or is the pedal held in the forward position when not depressed by pressure from the clutch master cylinder? I do not see any spring mounting points on the clutch pedal or pedal box assembly for a return spring. Those deleting the compression spring assembly would have to rely on fluid pressure alone to return the pedal. The diagrams on oemparts.com are not clear to me.
    My $0.02 would be to leave it. I think the extra bit of help returning the pedal would ensure that the throwout bearing couldn't possibly "ride" on the pressure plate diaphragm fingers causing it to go out prematurely.
    e30 Vert project

    "The two loudest sounds a gun owner hears is a bang when he expects a click and a click when he expects a bang"

    Recently heard - "The shear number of people who have made me wish there was a hell for them to rot in has forced me to re-examine my atheist beliefs."

  6. #106
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    My return spring has been broken (missing) on my E30 since I swapped the motor/converted it to a 5-speed 6 years ago, and I've never had an issue whatsoever. My clutch pedal is certainly stiff compared to my E36, but otherwise feels the same and engages at the right point. I guess you could say it's more linear, since the feel is the same for it's path of travel, rather than having firm/weak points. My brother's E30 has the return spring intact, and his pedal is softer than mine, but otherwise the same. As far as what is "moving" the pedal, it is certainly the clutch fluid cycling in the lines, but remember, when you press the pedal in, you're pushing against the pressure plate with hydraulic pressure. When you relax that pressure, the pressure plate springs are actually what moves the fluid by pushing the slave cylinder rod back (and returning your pedal). So it isn't like the clutch master is really doing any more work when the return spring is missing.

    1997 328i/4/5 - Cosmosschwarz Metallic on Dove Grey - Auto/Manual Swap - M3 Bilstein Sport/H&R Sports (95 M3 mounts) - Offset M3 LCAB - 20mm M3 rear sway bar - X-Brace - AA Tuning Strut Tower Bar - Rogue Engineering RSM - Dinan Cat-Back - 3.38 LSD - E46 330 front/328 rear brakes - SS Brake Lines - E36 fitment Style 42's (staggered) - M3 Front Bumper - M3 side moldings - M3 Rear Diffuser - DJ Auto Headlights (6k HIDS) - Frenched Fogs - OEM Clear Tails - E65 Rearview Mirror (Homelink controls + Autodim) - Alpine Type S Cabin Speakers (6x9 Retrofit) - 8" JVC woofer - Black Kidneys - Red Needles/Chrome Gauge Rings - OEM Alarm - Full Interior/Trunk LED Lighting - Mishimoto Full-Aluminum Radiator - More to Come!

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagerking View Post
    My return spring has been broken (missing) on my E30 since I swapped the motor/converted it to a 5-speed 6 years ago, and I've never had an issue whatsoever. My clutch pedal is certainly stiff compared to my E36, but otherwise feels the same and engages at the right point. I guess you could say it's more linear, since the feel is the same for it's path of travel, rather than having firm/weak points. My brother's E30 has the return spring intact, and his pedal is softer than mine, but otherwise the same. As far as what is "moving" the pedal, it is certainly the clutch fluid cycling in the lines, but remember, when you press the pedal in, you're pushing against the pressure plate with hydraulic pressure. When you relax that pressure, the pressure plate springs are actually what moves the fluid by pushing the slave cylinder rod back (and returning your pedal). So it isn't like the clutch master is really doing any more work when the return spring is missing.
    When you say "return spring" are you talking about the compression spring behind the clutch pedal that pushes it forward (see photo below) , or is there another spring that is in front of the pedal and pulls it forward to its resting position? The diagram below is from oemparts.com and if you look at #19 it looks like a pull spring for the clutch pedal. The compression type "push" spring like on mine is not even shown on this diagram. (Part #22 in the diagram is not the return assist spring, it is the clutch master cylinder) I am trying to determine if there are two entirely different pedal setups using different springs or if both springs are used on the clutch side.


    This is a picture of what mine looks like. It is labeled "Clutch Pedal Return Assist Spring" below.


    I plan to leave mine as is and it sure looks like the pedal will be held firmly in place in the forward position as long as fluid pressure in the line will push the pedal past the "break-over point on the assist spring. I just wanted to make sure there was not another spring that is supposed to pull the pedal forward from the front. Again, there apparently are two different pedal set-ups, the one in the oemparts diagram with spring #19, and the one in the picture, like mine, which apparently does not have spring #19.
    Last edited by JimBobs 91E30; 03-25-2016 at 03:27 PM.

  8. #108
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    Mine does not have spring #19 either (my car is an early eta with a metal clutch pedal). And as I mentioned earlier, also has a missing "clutch pedal return assist spring" that you pictured above. I'm not saying that you should remove it, but I don't think there is really a problem with not having one. Even though there is no other spring to return the pedal, the clutch actuation does the job just fine.

    1997 328i/4/5 - Cosmosschwarz Metallic on Dove Grey - Auto/Manual Swap - M3 Bilstein Sport/H&R Sports (95 M3 mounts) - Offset M3 LCAB - 20mm M3 rear sway bar - X-Brace - AA Tuning Strut Tower Bar - Rogue Engineering RSM - Dinan Cat-Back - 3.38 LSD - E46 330 front/328 rear brakes - SS Brake Lines - E36 fitment Style 42's (staggered) - M3 Front Bumper - M3 side moldings - M3 Rear Diffuser - DJ Auto Headlights (6k HIDS) - Frenched Fogs - OEM Clear Tails - E65 Rearview Mirror (Homelink controls + Autodim) - Alpine Type S Cabin Speakers (6x9 Retrofit) - 8" JVC woofer - Black Kidneys - Red Needles/Chrome Gauge Rings - OEM Alarm - Full Interior/Trunk LED Lighting - Mishimoto Full-Aluminum Radiator - More to Come!

  9. #109
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    Your return assist spring looks like a darn valve spring. Not to say it shouldn't be there but it looks like it would provide resistance when you step on the clutch. It's been ages since I did the swap on my m10 car but I will say that I wouldn't rely on what you "fluid pressure" to keep the pedal in the home position, since it isn't really pressure so much as a static state..meaning no pressure. Think about it...does a clutch master work in both directions when at rest the reservoir is open to the atmosphere ?

    If this makes any sense please explain to me what I'm talking about
    87 Zinno Cabrio 98k Barn Find. Build thread http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=268987
    87 Lachsilber ETA Time Capsule. bought w 125k from 87yo original owner

    Cabrio deck lid & hinge struts (w sleeves) now for sale. See the link below for more info

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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffnhiscars View Post
    Your return assist spring looks like a darn valve spring. Not to say it shouldn't be there but it looks like it would provide resistance when you step on the clutch. It's been ages since I did the swap on my m10 car but I will say that I wouldn't rely on what you "fluid pressure" to keep the pedal in the home position, since it isn't really pressure so much as a static state..meaning no pressure. Think about it...does a clutch master work in both directions when at rest the reservoir is open to the atmosphere ?

    If this makes any sense please explain to me what I'm talking about
    Looking at the design it appears it's supposed to do two things, 1) make sure the pedal returns all the way and there's no residual pressure on it (re: think riding the clutch) and 2) when the clutch is all the way in relieve some of the pressure the driver would need to keep on it to keep it fully disengaged.

    The reason I think this is that when I did the auto to 5 speed conversion I noticed that after putting in the pedals but prior to hooking up all the hydraulics if pushed the pedal past a certain point the spring would cause it to pin against the floor and past a certain point on release it would push it all the way up.

    BTW, when you do install everything, leave the pedal all the way down when you first hook up all the hydraulics, that way once everything is tightened up when you first pull it up it sucks in a full master cylinder of fluid. Makes it way easier to bleed the system as you're only bleeding out what was in the lines and the slave cylinder.
    e30 Vert project

    "The two loudest sounds a gun owner hears is a bang when he expects a click and a click when he expects a bang"

    Recently heard - "The shear number of people who have made me wish there was a hell for them to rot in has forced me to re-examine my atheist beliefs."

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffnhiscars View Post
    Your return assist spring looks like a darn valve spring. Not to say it shouldn't be there but it looks like it would provide resistance when you step on the clutch. It's been ages since I did the swap on my m10 car but I will say that I wouldn't rely on what you "fluid pressure" to keep the pedal in the home position, since it isn't really pressure so much as a static state..meaning no pressure. Think about it...does a clutch master work in both directions when at rest the reservoir is open to the atmosphere ?

    If this makes any sense please explain to me what I'm talking about
    That is the first thing I thought of when I saw it...a valve spring. Probably is. The tension on it is actually adjustable by a pair of nuts on the bolt that goes thru the spring. There is a little pressure on the pedal when you first press it, which is adjustable as I just stated. Then the pressure decreases as the spring rocks to a neutral point. After you pass the neutral point the spring then begins to add pressure again as the pedal travels further. It actually holds the pedal in place when not depressed, and then assists with pushing the pedal when it is depressed. I have read numerous posts where others have deleted this spring assembly entirely and they all state that fluid pressure from the slave cylinder pushes back thru the clutch MC which then forces the pedal back to its resting position when the pedal is released. Those that have deleted the assembly seem to like the feel better, stating that it is smoother and more linear. No one has noted any problems after the delete. One thing I do know is that it keeps the pedal completely forward against the stop when the pedal is not depressed. This would insure that the cruise control cancel switch was depressed properly. Although this is not an issue for me since I deleted my cruise I am going to keep the spring assembly in place since I have already installed it and it is working good. The BMW engineers had something in mind when they designed it.

    Of course, I sometimes start thinking that those German engineers laughed and slapped each other on the back after designing some part or fitting specifically for American export that is almost impossible to get to or adjust. Funny how these parts take on a personality and I start talking to them rather harshly after being frustrated with my inability to make them work or fit properly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by braddammit View Post
    Looking at the design it appears it's supposed to do two things, 1) make sure the pedal returns all the way and there's no residual pressure on it (re: think riding the clutch) and 2) when the clutch is all the way in relieve some of the pressure the driver would need to keep on it to keep it fully disengaged.
    We posted about the same time but my thoughts exactly. Thanks for the advice on bleeding the system. Will definitely use your expertise.
    Last edited by JimBobs 91E30; 06-17-2014 at 08:40 PM.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by dohcdoh View Post
    Yup I'm getting the parallel flow from rockauto. The one you have is the old serpentine style. The one from rock is like 89.29$ shipped. Vista pro pn 6590. Not bad.
    Finally, a PF condenser! This is what came from Rock Auto. 87.73 including shipping.
    Last edited by JimBobs 91E30; 03-25-2016 at 03:34 PM.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimBobs 91E30 View Post
    Finally, a PF condenser! This is what came from Rock Auto. 87.73 including shipping. <img src="http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=505747"/>
    Eagerly awaiting updates.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimBobs 91E30 View Post
    Finally, a PF condenser! This is what came from Rock Auto. 87.73 including shipping. <img src="http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=505747"/>
    That's the one. Even looks like my pic
    87 Zinno Cabrio 98k Barn Find. Build thread http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=268987
    87 Lachsilber ETA Time Capsule. bought w 125k from 87yo original owner

    Cabrio deck lid & hinge struts (w sleeves) now for sale. See the link below for more info

    New "made in Europe" seat shocks. PM for details
    http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ot-Seat-Shocks

  15. #115
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    Another AC Question

    I am replacing the entire AC system, including compressor, condenser, dryer, evaporator, expansion valve and pressure switch, and of course the O rings. I will also be replacing some of the lines, and the lines I don't replace will be removed, cleaned with solvent and re-installed. I will not be charging the system but will leave that for the experts. (I could probably build a nuclear reactor easier than charge an AC system.) I have read where some add the PAG oil to each component before putting everything back together but I am assuming the pros will pull a vacuum before charging the system and I would think they would need to add oil after that. SO...is that correct? Should I wait and let the experts add the oil or should I put it in before connecting all the lines?

  16. #116
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    From what I've read people put oil in various components before install. I wouldn't try to reinvent the wheel, just do what you know works.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimBobs 91E30 View Post
    I am replacing the entire AC system, including compressor, condenser, dryer, evaporator, expansion valve and pressure switch, and of course the O rings. I will also be replacing some of the lines, and the lines I don't replace will be removed, cleaned with solvent and re-installed. I will not be charging the system but will leave that for the experts. (I could probably build a nuclear reactor easier than charge an AC system.) I have read where some add the PAG oil to each component before putting everything back together but I am assuming the pros will pull a vacuum before charging the system and I would think they would need to add oil after that. SO...is that correct? Should I wait and let the experts add the oil or should I put it in before connecting all the lines?
    Add the oil on assembly so you know you have the right amount in the right places since whoever pulls your vac may not know. I've also never read about adding oil after the system is under vac...not to say it can't be done.

    You've come this far Jim. For the cost of having someone charge the system why not buy a pump and a dozen cans of r134 ?
    Last edited by Jeffnhiscars; 06-18-2014 at 09:51 PM.
    87 Zinno Cabrio 98k Barn Find. Build thread http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=268987
    87 Lachsilber ETA Time Capsule. bought w 125k from 87yo original owner

    Cabrio deck lid & hinge struts (w sleeves) now for sale. See the link below for more info

    New "made in Europe" seat shocks. PM for details
    http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ot-Seat-Shocks

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffnhiscars View Post
    Add the oil on assembly so you know you have the right amount in the right places since whoever pulls your vac may not know. I've also never read about adding oil after the system is under vac...not to say it can't be done.

    You've come this far Jim. For the cost of having someone charge the system why not buy a pump and a dozen cans of r134 ?
    Well, Jeff, I guess you can tell by my questions that AC is something I have never done before and wanted to make sure I got it right. I did read how you did it in your great thread and it seemed a possibility for me. It would be nice to learn how so I could service it myself in the future. I also like these projects because I get to buy more tools! I will give it some serious consideration. I can always bend your ear for more advice.

    Just found out DIY34er has a set of manifold gauges.
    Last edited by JimBobs 91E30; 06-19-2014 at 08:47 AM.

  19. #119
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    Manifold gauges are cheap. So is a vac pump. Do you have a compressor?

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by dohcdoh View Post
    Manifold gauges are cheap. So is a vac pump. Do you have a compressor?
    Yep. Seltec 488-45011 with Air Products W0133-1605645-APR AC conversion mounting kit, just like Jeff's! The mounting kit is still available from Amazon.com. Got my compressor from truckerac.com.

  21. #121
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    I don't think we are talking about the same kind of compressor. Haha I'm talking about a compressor so you can use air tools, like an air powered vac pump.

  22. #122
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    Yes. I have an air compressor.

  23. #123
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    Dragging Slowly Along

    I have been restoring the AC system to like new using the info in the thread by Jeffnhiscars for my shopping list. I have replaced every hose and every component in the system with new parts (translate "not cheap"). Probably going to jump off in deep water and get a vacuum pump and charge the system myself, but right now I am at a stopping point because I do not want to connect the compressor until the engine is ready to go in so the compressor wont just be hanging there in the way. Now the engine is the hold up, waiting for the pistons to arrive. The head from Bimmerheads should be here Tuesday but it will still have to wait for the pistons. In the meantime I finished the clutch pedal setup and cleaned, checked and painted the brake vacuum booster. Of course such a process is not without a little influence from Murphy. With everything in place I found that I could not get the fill hose on the clutch master cylinder fitting. Everything is so tight I barely could get two fingers on the hose and there was no way it was going to slide on the fitting. Naturally, when I loosened the master cylinder to get more room the assist spring on the back fell off, so out everything came for another try. If you do this, you must put the hose on the fitting, mount the clutch master cylinder on the pedal box frame, and then slide everything in place while working the hose through the grommet in the firewall. If done that way there is no problem putting it in.


    Refreshed brake vacuum booster with new cylinder and reservoir. The old reservoir had some crud in the rear chamber that I could not remove. The hose hanging across the brake fluid reservoir is the fill hose to the clutch master cylinder. It will be cut and attached to a port on the brake fluid reservoir. The reservoir has two chambers, one for the brakes and one for the clutch. The hydraulic line that goes to the clutch slave cylinder lies on the stabilizer bar waiting for the transmission install.
    Last edited by JimBobs 91E30; 03-25-2016 at 03:35 PM.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by braddammit View Post

    Looking at the design it appears it's supposed to do two things, 1) make sure the pedal returns all the way and there's no residual pressure on it (re: think riding the clutch) and 2) when the clutch is all the way in relieve some of the pressure the driver would need to keep on it to keep it fully disengaged.

    The reason I think this is that when I did the auto to 5 speed conversion I noticed that after putting in the pedals but prior to hooking up all the hydraulics if pushed the pedal past a certain point the spring would cause it to pin against the floor and past a certain point on release it would push it all the way up.

    BTW, when you do install everything, leave the pedal all the way down when you first hook up all the hydraulics, that way once everything is tightened up when you first pull it up it sucks in a full master cylinder of fluid. Makes it way easier to bleed the system as you're only bleeding out what was in the lines and the slave cylinder.
    Oh I've never thought about that before! it's true, when you push the clutch in all the way, at the very end it's almost like it goes in by itself, little to no effort. and coming back out you can feel the return spring grab on the pedal and pull it back.... You know I always thought it had to do with the clutch fluid.... learn something new every day.

  25. #125
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    Heads Up

    The Big Brown Truck came today with a couple of packages....

    Bimmerheads 885 performance head with welded coolant jacket, 280/274 camshaft and HD rockers




    Now, where are those pistons???

    And another package. Now lets see...do I go for originality or functionality?



    Last edited by JimBobs 91E30; 11-19-2018 at 11:59 AM.

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