E36 M3 Track Car - S50 to LS1

[FastFabM3]

No pictures?

Glad you survived the weekend without incident!

[doktor b]

Hey Bart.
i went thru this thread again and your clutch MC thread.
you said you're running a manual car brake pedal for the clutch pedal and an auto car brake pedal for the brake pedal.

can you post a pic of your pedals? Or PM/email me one? I'm working on my clutch MC setup now and happen to have a brake pedal from an auto car.

TIA

[Inflame]

No pictures?

Glad you survived the weekend without incident!

Unfortunately, I have not seen many pictures

Hey Bart.
i went thru this thread again and your clutch MC thread.
you said you're running a manual car brake pedal for the clutch pedal and an auto car brake pedal for the brake pedal.

can you post a pic of your pedals? Or PM/email me one? I'm working on my clutch MC setup now and happen to have a brake pedal from an auto car.

TIA

Hey Chris,

That is correct. I'll have to dig through pictures, as they are all on my old phone now which I don't think even powers up anymore :/ I'll see if they backed up to my google account.

It's a fairly easy swap. You'll need to straighten the arm, drill a new hole for the clutch rod location and clock the pedal for the manual brake assembly to be used on the clutch.

As for the brake, the auto pedal is wider than the manual one, so I just cut off the pedal portion and welded it onto the manual one.

PS: The automatic brake assembly is straight, so you can use that arm for the clutch, which would just require a pedal swap and hole drill.

[doktor b]

Excellent.
ill play around with all my pedals when I get back to the garage this week.
thanks for the insight.

[Inflame]

Wow, well, no new updates unfortunately. M3 is covered in boxes, cushions, etc as a shelf. Only updates I plan on doing over winter are the following:

1) New front and rear bumpers (no additional aero)
2) New splitter
3) Go boosterless with the brakes
4) Increase spring rate by 200# in the front and 300# in the rear with shorter springs.
5) Hopefully get windshield replaced in the spring.

Also, here is my Road Atlanta video!! Finally got it uploaded...



This was not my fastest lap, I believe this was a 1:37-38 lap, my fastest was a 1:36.2x

[pMak26]

What are your current spring rates? I need a higher rate in the rear as well. Seems like the weight shift of the ls/t56 has added mid corner push and stifled a bit of rotation.

[cemmett]

Still trying to learn as much as I can about suspension tuning; why would you increase spring rate instead of increasing rebound for more oversteer? And are you finding the need for higher spring rates due to your aero improvements?

[doktor b]

damn, i like the way your exhaust sounds.

[NotoriousJJE]

That's freaking awesome man. Torque on torque on torque

[Inflame]

What are your current spring rates? I need a higher rate in the rear as well. Seems like the weight shift of the ls/t56 has added mid corner push and stifled a bit of rotation.

550/650... my rear springs are about an inch too tall right now too -_-

Still trying to learn as much as I can about suspension tuning; why would you increase spring rate instead of increasing rebound for more oversteer? And are you finding the need for higher spring rates due to your aero improvements?

I am increasing rate overall due to going to a full slick next year and I feel the 550/650 setup is just a hair too soft. Going to 750/900 will be enough rate for the slicks and with even more added rear rate the car will rotate a bit better.

Adding spring vs damping is a massive discussion, for a better understanding of vehicle dynamics I recommend these two books.

https://www.amazon.com/Tune-Win-scie.../dp/0879380713

and

https://www.amazon.com/Race-Vehicle-.../dp/1560915269

With my limited knowledge of the subject, the best way I can explain why adding damping is not ideal vs adding spring is that when you add resistance through damping, you are not allowing compliance of the suspension which will reduce your traction over bumps. A soft spring/high damper combination is NOT ideal while a high spring/low damper is (high and low are relative). Tire contact patch load force optimization is the goal, with high damping you are not going to have the tire compliance needed to maintain proper tire/road contact.

^^^ Anyone, please correct if I'm wrong!

damn, i like the way your exhaust sounds.

Thank you!

That's freaking awesome man. Torque on torque on torque

This is exactly why I tell everyone to LS swap!

[klodkrawler05]

I think you're on the right track, those rates sound a lot closer to what I'd expect as well.

Matt and I are both running 800f/900r on the e46's with street tires so I'm guessing you should be about right given how much lighter you are combined with slicks.

[cemmett]

I am increasing rate overall due to going to a full slick next year and I feel the 550/650 setup is just a hair too soft. Going to 750/900 will be enough rate for the slicks and with even more added rear rate the car will rotate a bit better.

Adding spring vs damping is a massive discussion, for a better understanding of vehicle dynamics I recommend these two books.

https://www.amazon.com/Tune-Win-scie.../dp/0879380713

and

https://www.amazon.com/Race-Vehicle-.../dp/1560915269

With my limited knowledge of the subject, the best way I can explain why adding damping is not ideal vs adding spring is that when you add resistance through damping, you are not allowing compliance of the suspension which will reduce your traction over bumps. A soft spring/high damper combination is NOT ideal while a high spring/low damper is (high and low are relative). Tire contact patch load force optimization is the goal, with high damping you are not going to have the tire compliance needed to maintain proper tire/road contact.

^^^ Anyone, please correct if I'm wrong!

Thank you! Makes perfect sense. I've got some more reading to do.

Also, 12-year-old me would be excited that I have an excuse to buy a book called 'Race car vehicle dynamics', so there's that.

[pMak26]

550/650... my rear springs are about an inch too tall right now too -_-

Wow, yeah that is a very soft spring rate for any sticky tire. I have 570 front and I'm looking for ~700+ rears, but I only run a hard street tire. I don't care about lap time, I like to slide around and have fun. I think you're headed in the right direction with the rates you're looking at and slicks.

[justinco]

I am thinking about LS swapping my e36 over the winter, or maybe next year. Starting to do some research but either I suck at searching, or there is little detailed info about the process.

What LS did you end up going with? I have seen e36's with LS1 from late 90's Camaro's to everything else newer...not sure which route is best or most cost effective.

I imagine on top of the long block, I need the T56 trans, wiring harness, and engine mount kit, among some other things...

Anyways, love your project, been following it for a long time now

[doktor b]

I am thinking about LS swapping my e36 over the winter, or maybe next year. Starting to do some research but either I suck at searching, or there is little detailed info about the process.

What LS did you end up going with? I have seen e36's with LS1 from late 90's Camaro's to everything else newer...not sure which route is best or most cost effective.

I imagine on top of the long block, I need the T56 trans, wiring harness, and engine mount kit, among some other things...

Anyways, love your project, been following it for a long time now

there is so much info, you can go into information overload.
and if you can't glean through the mountain of information available, the swap is going to be exceptionally difficult.

keep digging. it's there.

[jakermac]

I'm looking for ~700+ rears, but I only run a hard street tire. I don't care about lap time, I like to slide around and have fun.

I have a pair of H&R 140-60-120 springs for pretty cheap if you want. That's 5.5" long, 60mm id (about 2.35") 686lb.

[Inflame]

I think you're on the right track, those rates sound a lot closer to what I'd expect as well.

Matt and I are both running 800f/900r on the e46's with street tires so I'm guessing you should be about right given how much lighter you are combined with slicks.

I really like the soft setup because it's very predictable and controllable at the limit.

Thank you! Makes perfect sense. I've got some more reading to do.

Also, 12-year-old me would be excited that I have an excuse to buy a book called 'Race car vehicle dynamics', so there's that.

Thanks man! I'm learning as much as I can as that's the field I want to get into for engineering.

Wow, yeah that is a very soft spring rate for any sticky tire. I have 570 front and I'm looking for ~700+ rears, but I only run a hard street tire. I don't care about lap time, I like to slide around and have fun. I think you're headed in the right direction with the rates you're looking at and slicks.

The higher rates will be interesting. I just need to make sure I get the right spring heights too. I want to lower the entire car another 0.5-1.0 inches.

I am thinking about LS swapping my e36 over the winter, or maybe next year. Starting to do some research but either I suck at searching, or there is little detailed info about the process.

What LS did you end up going with? I have seen e36's with LS1 from late 90's Camaro's to everything else newer...not sure which route is best or most cost effective.

I imagine on top of the long block, I need the T56 trans, wiring harness, and engine mount kit, among some other things...

Anyways, love your project, been following it for a long time now

I got lucky and scored an LS6 off craigslist that was being sold as an LS1. I tried to cover as much detail as I could in my thread, and it's becoming much more popular these days.

[sk8rpirate]

Inflame- what suspension are you currently running? i know a little while a go you decided to go with a more budget friendly set up. how have you liked it?

[bmw328m52]

Stiffer spring rates should help considerably and your logic behind the suspension is on the money. At least from I could remember back in the days of SCCA and Formula SAE. I need to get back out there once this college debt is finally done ripping me a new one.

[TXBDan]

What diameter springs do you currently have? If they're 60mm i might interested in them if you change them out. I'm running 450/500s and am thinking about 500/600 or 550/650.

[Inflame]

Inflame- what suspension are you currently running? i know a little while a go you decided to go with a more budget friendly set up. how have you liked it?

I'm on Stance SS+, which I believe are the XR1's now. For the money, they're great. I don't expect them to be able to compete with the higher end stuff, but they hold their own. At the end of the day, it's all about being able to work with what ya got. Someone can have Motons, MCS, JRZ, AST 6000's or whatever, but if they don't know how to properly setup their car AND be able to drive well enough to utilize the $6000 coilovers, then it doesn't matter what they're on.

Stiffer spring rates should help considerably and your logic behind the suspension is on the money. At least from I could remember back in the days of SCCA and Formula SAE. I need to get back out there once this college debt is finally done ripping me a new one.

Thanks! Yeah, it's tough to remember vehicle dynamics when it's purely a hobby at this point lol. I'll be on the college debt game here soon hence why M3 is on the back burner

What diameter springs do you currently have? If they're 60mm i might interested in them if you change them out. I'm running 450/500s and am thinking about 500/600 or 550/650.

I believe they're 60mm units. I'll measure them out when I pull them off but it won't be for a few months, atleast until after my Euro Trip which is in May.

[doktor b]

Bart,
it's time for an update.

~Chris

[Inflame]

I agree!!

So far I've done the following:

-Ordered new front and rear bumpers, only rear will be installed for now.

-New front splitter, +1"

-New rear spoiler, +2" vertically and +1" on each side (it's massive)

-Installed the Massive Brakes E36 Brake Booster Delete (Sourcing new 19/19 MC)

So far, that is all I'll be doing... The spring rate change will happen mid summer when I have time to pull the suspension off, as that will also require me to get corner balanced, etc...

I'll also be remaking the front ducting as when I crashed the M3 a few times into my trailer (lol) I destroyed everything up there.

Hoping to source some Hoosier A7/R7's for the summer and start wheeling again!

OH! Also... I bought some AirTab vortex generators... I'll be doing some tuft testing on the rear windshield, before and after video to see if these things really work. http://www.airtab.com/

[doktor b]

awesome.
i've been driving my swap for 1-2 months now and every time i do, i think of your car. it's weird.
glad you're still pushing it forward.

how significant of temp drops did you notice with the vraptor hood vent? i did a pseudo-v-mount radiator setup and intend to vent the hood for max hot air evacuation. your vraptor vent is the best option i've seen without spending the $400 for a trackspec motorsports setup.

[jakermac]

Hoping to source some Hoosier A7/R7's for the summer and start wheeling again!

Want a relatively inexpensive set of A6 275/35-17s? Were only used at autocross. Would probably last a little while on road race!!