My First BMW – My First Swap – LS2/T56 into an E36

[TipsyMcStagger]

I've always used a normal style nut with a split lock washer, never had a problem.

Probably cheap insurance.

What about the mounts to the block itself? Are these (4 bolts each side) prone to backing out (green arrows above)? Lock washers will definitely tear up the powder coat...not that that matters much.

Tipsy

[squashman702]

Probably cheap insurance.

What about the mounts to the block itself? Are these (4 bolts each side) prone to backing out (green arrows above)? Lock washers will definitely tear up the powder coat...not that that matters much.

Tipsy

Could do the same thing there with the lock washer. The LS1 and L33 I've had used factory mounts that only utilized bolts, no Loctite or lock washers.

[unnatrl]

Could do the same thing there with the lock washer. The LS1 and L33 I've had used factory mounts that only utilized bolts, no Loctite or lock washers.

I have (3) LS style engines, they all use a normal style bolt (no lock washer of any sort) in that location. Never had an issue with them backing out.

[TipsyMcStagger]

The LS1 and L33 I've had used factory mounts that only utilized bolts, no Loctite or lock washers.

I have (3) LS style engines, they all use a normal style bolt (no lock washer of any sort) in that location. Never had an issue with them backing out.

I just looked back through some pics and it looks like the factory LS2 perches also had no lock washers.

A couple of other questions just came to mind; The factory heat shield that protects the lower control arm bushing (lollipop) on the passenger side appears that it will be in contact with the header. What have you guys done with those?

And any recommendations for a heat shield for the starter?

Tipsy

[Inflame]

I haven't hard any bolts back out on me and I track my car 1-2x a month. Out of the ~2700 miles I've put on my car, I'd say 1500-1750 are track miles.

I have heat reflective tape on my starter.

[bimerok]

For the mounts to block, just use the factory OEM bolts. The heads on them are "flared" into a washer type thing.
For the bolt that goes through the mount, I used a grade 8 bolt with nylon locking nut and a split washer. No problems with nylon after 6 or 7 years that they're there and no loose bolts.

I don't have any heat shields on the lower control arm bushings and they are fine again after about 20-25K miles with LS engine and track use.

Starter, I bought a special starter heat shield blanket from Summit Racing and a reflective tape. The blanket goes around the starter, held on the Velcro and I used the heat reflective tape to go around it to hold it better. I also used that heat reflective tape to go around the wire loom of battery wires to protect them from heat.

[TipsyMcStagger]

I haven't hard any bolts back out on me and I track my car 1-2x a month. Out of the ~2700 miles I've put on my car, I'd say 1500-1750 are track miles.

I have heat reflective tape on my starter.

Good to know. Thanks.

I used a grade 8 bolt with nylon locking nut and a split washer. No problems with nylon after 6 or 7 years that they're there and no loose bolts.

The belt and suspenders approach

I don't have any heat shields on the lower control arm bushings and they are fine again after about 20-25K miles with LS engine and track use.

Starter, I bought a special starter heat shield blanket from Summit Racing and a reflective tape. The blanket goes around the starter, held on the Velcro and I used the heat reflective tape to go around it to hold it better. I also used that heat reflective tape to go around the wire loom of battery wires to protect them from heat.

Good info. I'm going to ditch the stock lollipop heat shield. It's just in the way. I'll do a search for the heat blanket and heat reflective tape. I did order more of the DEI heat shield I used on the firewall to complete the tunnel. I also dropped-off the heaters to be ceramic coated. Interesting that ceramic coating (or at least this particular product) is not oven cured. It's simply applied and air cured. Never knew that.

Tipsy

[TipsyMcStagger]

These brake lines continue to be my nemesis. It would almost be comical if it weren't so frustrating. I procrastinated quite a bit knowing I had to attack these lines yet again. I'd already redone them previously because I wasn't happy with the crappy flaring tool I used in the first go around. I redid them with a quality Eastwood bench flaring tool. But once I test fit the engine, it was clear that the two rear lines were too close to the JTR headers. So, round three.

The challenges this time around were that I'd have to cut the two hard lines that run to the rear brakes. And I'd have to make new flares on the car. Long story short, I'd posted a few months ago that I found what appeared to be a decent "on car" flaring tool on eBay, shipped from England (search for "Mafco" or "Powerhand" Din flaring tool). Eastwood recently started selling a similar on-car flaring tool, but they don't have a bubble-flare version. And as mentioned in a prevision post, I decided to give Nicopp brake line a try this time. Nicopp is SO much easier to work with. While I made all of the 90 degree bends with a bending tool, sweeping bends can be made by hand. I wish I'd used this stuff the first two times. Yes, it's expensive..and yes, I still had a lot of waste making and remaking lines. But there's no contest between this stuff and the green-coated steel line when it comes to workability.

I also decided that if I was going to get this done, I needed to accept the fact that I'd have to have an extra two unions in the line. The lines were just too long and too cumbersome to successfully bend single lines from the ABS pump down to the frame rails.

They're not gorgeous and they're not 100% to my liking but I think they are good enough. But until I get fluid in the system to check for leaks, I can't be overly confident. I'm debating whether to go ahead and fill and bleed the system next or whether to put the engine and headers back in to make sure all of the clearances are good. I've never done a full system bleed. I do have a Motive pressure bleeder (I've never used it). I'm also not sure if I'll need to get power to the ABS pump to get a full system bleed. I just want to know if I have any leaks!


The red arrow points to a Sharpie mark where the previous lines were just about touching the header.







This union ended up further down the frame rail than I wanted. It's very close to where the stock fuel filter/regulator goes. I had originally cut the line further up but there was a slight bend that prevented the flare fitting from sliding down far enough to fit the flaring tool. So I had to cut the line back until I had enough straight line available.


The other union.


This tool, called a Ratch-Cut, makes cutting the line in tight quarters so much easier than using a traditional pipe cutter.



This is the on-car brake flaring tool.

[bimerok]

Make sure lines don't touch each other so they won't vibrate holes into themselves... You can splice a hose and put it over the line/union if two are in contact.

[TipsyMcStagger]

Make sure lines don't touch each other so they won't vibrate holes into themselves... You can splice a hose and put it over the line/union if two are in contact.

I did just that after I took those pics I bought some 7/32" vacuum line and sliced it open and placed it in several spots. I'm probably going to drill a couple of small holes in the frame and place a couple of fir-tree cable tie mounts just to hold the lines further from the headers.

Do you think I can get enough fluid through the system using just the pressure bleeder to check for leaks? I'm not sure if I can get power to the ABS pump if I jumper the relay. All of my steering column/ignition switch wiring is still disconnected. I don't know if that will prevent the ABS pump from powering-up with the relay jumpered. I'm really not 100% sure how to properly bleed the system with the ABS pump being a player.

Tipsy

[bimerok]

If you actually bleed the system by opening all calipers and letting the air out, you should be able to start pressing and holding on the break pedal as hard as you can and then going out and check for leaks.

I heard some people have tough time bleeding the ABS, but I did not have any issues with mine. I remember I cycled ignition few time so the pump was doing a self test and that was it. Just thorough 2 people bleeding method starting from furthest poit.

[TipsyMcStagger]

If you actually bleed the system by opening all calipers and letting the air out, you should be able to start pressing and holding on the break pedal as hard as you can and then going out and check for leaks.

I heard some people have tough time bleeding the ABS, but I did not have any issues with mine. I remember I cycled ignition few time so the pump was doing a self test and that was it. Just thorough 2 people bleeding method starting from furthest point.

I'm stuck using a single person method. But that's supposedly not a problem with the Motive pressure bleeder. I'll probably go ahead and try using the pressure bleeder and see how it goes. I wasn't aware that the ABS pump preformed a self test when the ignition is switched on. But like I said, I have so much of the interior wiring disconnected, I'm not sure it would activate.

Tipsy

[TipsyMcStagger]

I played with the Motive pressure bleeder today. I will have two reservoirs (brake and clutch), so I needed two different cap adapters. I can't remember where I read this tip but a while back I bought these Colder quick disconnect fittings on Amazon (male and female). What's nice about them is that not only can you switch the cap adapters quickly but (1) both sides will hold pressure when they are separated and (2) it makes it a bit easier to screw the adapter to the reservoir.

The first step when using the Motive bleeder is to attach it to the master cylinder reservoir, pump it up to about 10 pounds and check for leaks. Immediately, I knew I had a problem. I wasn't sure if the bleeder plumbing was leaking or if the brake system wasn't holding pressure. So, I rigged something up to test the Motive bleeder while submerged in the bathtub. It was leaking in a couple of places. Once fixed and I was sure the bleeder was holding pressure, I tried to pump-up the brake system again. It wouldn't hold pressure and I could hear hissing. One of the unions from yesterday was leaking. I took it apart and saw that a couple of threads were stripped. Rather than just replace the union, I remade one of the lines and replaced both flare fittings. I wanted to be sure I had it covered.

Once the lines and union were replaced, I pressurized the system again with 10 pounds of air. As of right now, it's been pressurized for about two hours and hasn't bled down at all! Hopefully, if it's not leaking air, it won't leak fluid. I'm going to leave it pressurized overnight.

Tipsy

[lloydjoe]

A couple of other questions just came to mind; The factory heat shield that protects the lower control arm bushing (lollipop) on the passenger side appears that it will be in contact with the header. What have you guys done with those?

And any recommendations for a heat shield for the starter?

Tipsy

I have the vorshlag headers in my 325i with an LS3 with vorshlag mounts. The passenger side header was rubbing the lollipop on the control arm when accelerating or doing anything causing the engine to rock. I ground down a bit of the lollipop to allow some clearance for it. No heat shield on my lollipop either.

I have done the same with my starter as mentioned already, DEI heat shield sleeve thing, cut to fit.

[TipsyMcStagger]

I have the vorshlag headers in my 325i with an LS3 with vorshlag mounts. The passenger side header was rubbing the lollipop on the control arm when accelerating or doing anything causing the engine to rock. I ground down a bit of the lollipop to allow some clearance for it. No heat shield on my lollipop either.

I have done the same with my starter as mentioned already, DEI heat shield sleeve thing, cut to fit.

I'm using JTR mounts and headers. There's only been two others on the forum (who I know of) using this setup but neither has reported clearance issues with the lollipop, that I'm aware of. I do need to take the heat shield off, though.

I'll also have to order some of the DEI heat shield for the starter. Thanks for the feedback.

Tipsy

[bimerok]

While no leaks with 10lbs of air is a good start, I would not call it success just yet when you compare it to about 2000psi during full force breaking pressure

You have no idea how long it takes to recover after the feeling you get when you press on the break pedal while doing ~135mph at the end of straight on the race track going into 90deg bend with new 135m in front of you and the pedal goes to the floor because a union just sipped the hot fluid. You get creative in the split second and find very interesting lines of entering and exit corners... For the next few track days the speed at the end of that straight was no more than 90-100mph on the street though it was no issue...

[TipsyMcStagger]

While no leaks with 10lbs of air is a good start, I would not call it success just yet when you compare it to about 2000psi during full force breaking pressure

You have no idea how long it takes to recover after the feeling you get when you press on the break pedal while doing ~135mph at the end of straight on the race track going into 90deg bend with new 135m in front of you and the pedal goes to the floor because a union just sipped the hot fluid. You get creative in the split second and find very interesting lines of entering and exit corners... For the next few track days the speed at the end of that straight was no more than 90-100mph on the street though it was no issue...

LOL...wow! I'm sure that must have gotten your heart rate up So what exactly failed?

Tipsy

[bimerok]

What I think has happened is on track the fluid was extremely hot along with "elevated" braking pressure and one of the unions for front brakes started letting the pressure by. All it took is less then 1/4 turn of "extremely-uncomfortable-getting-to-union" tightening in the track conditions and so far it has never happened again in the past 4-5 years...

... I'm sure that must have gotten your heart rate up ...

Yeah, my whole swap and brakes upgrade flashed in front of me in split second

[TipsyMcStagger]

What I think has happened is on track the fluid was extremely hot along with "elevated" braking pressure and one of the unions for front brakes started letting the pressure by. All it took is less then 1/4

I really didn't want those two additional unions (I wanted to keep it at four unions, vs. six) because I do think each one is an additional potential point of failure. But it was just too difficult to make all of those bends without sectioning the rear lines into two pieces.

I'm also hoping the pedal feel is good with the Mustang master cylinder. My research indicates it's a 1.062" bore (1 1/16"). It looks like I'd have to remove the entire hydroboost to replace the master cylinder because it's so close to the strut tower. There is a pressed-in bolt that will necessitate pulling the MC forward about an inch and a half to separate from the hydroboost. I don't have the inch and a half.

Right now, it's all stock 328 brakes. But I might do an upgrade similar to yours in the future.On the plus side, the air held rock solid at 10 PSI over night!

Tipsy

[unnatrl]

The brakes on my E36 felt great with the hydro boost and Mustang master cylinder. It was on an M3, but the pedal "feel" was no different when the front brakes were upgraded to 14" Wilwoods. The hydro boost was one of the better upgrades of that entire project! Keep the updates coming.

[bimerok]

... It looks like I'd have to remove the entire hydroboost to replace the master cylinder because it's so close to the strut tower. There is a pressed-in bolt that will necessitate pulling the MC forward about an inch and a half to separate from the hydroboost. I don't have the inch and a half...

In that case, see if you can reverse this bolt and stick it from the hydro boost side into the master. Have it tack-welded on the other side if you can't make it a press fit... Giving yourself any ease now while you have stuff apart will help you later on when your engine bay is packed with "stuff". You don't want to have extra obstructions while wiggling components with brake fluid...

[TipsyMcStagger]

The brakes on my E36 felt great with the hydro boost and Mustang master cylinder. It was on an M3, but the pedal "feel" was no different when the front brakes were upgraded to 14" Wilwoods. The hydro boost was one of the better upgrades of that entire project! Keep the updates coming.

That's reassuring. Thanks for posting.

Tipsy

- - - Updated - - -

In that case, see if you can reverse this bolt and stick it from the hydro boost side into the master. Have it tack-welded on the other side if you can't make it a press fit... Giving yourself any ease now while you have stuff apart will help you later on when your engine bay is packed with "stuff". You don't want to have extra obstructions while wiggling components with brake fluid...

I had the same thought. It appears one bolt is pressed into the master (front to back) and one is pressed into the hydroboost (back to front). But I don't think swapping both bolts to the same orientation would alleviate the issue. The MC would still have to "ride" over the fixed bolts to pull it clear. I think the only solution is to eliminate the fixed bolts in favor of bolts that can be removed, so the MC can simply be pulled straight up (assuming it'll clear the pushrod).

I'm not sure why the bolts are pressed in from the factory. And I'm not sure I want to take it all apart again to address the issue, though I know that's the smartest thing to do.

Here's a picture I found on the net that depicts the two bolts pressed-in in opposite directions:



Tipsy

[bimerok]

Ok, I see how it goes together now... If I had a choice of swapping to two regular bolts (granted you have access to hold the bolts while working the nuts) vs having to remove the whole hydro boost, I would definitely swap the bolts now, while it is easy to do

[TipsyMcStagger]

Ok, I see how it goes together now... If I had a choice of swapping to two regular bolts (granted you have access to hold the bolts while working the nuts) vs having to remove the whole hydro boost, I would definitely swap the bolts now, while it is easy to do

I'll give it some more thought. Both of those bolts would have to be pressed out. I'm not sure how easy it would be to remove them. I don't want to open a can of worms and potentially damage the MC or the hydroboost.

Tipsy

[TipsyMcStagger]

I dropped the E40 PCM at Current Performance today. They are just a few minutes from my house. In addition to the usual - removing VATS, EVAP, skip shift, rear O2's, etc - I decided to potentially open a can of worms and I'm having Jared reflash the OS from GTO to SSR. This will allow me to have cruise control functionality. Supposedly, all other PCM functionality remains unaffected. The only caveat is that a TBSS/SSR accelerator pedal must be used in place of the original GTO pedal.

Since I decided to do this, I started to research the switch wiring on the E36 clutch pedal. It turns out there are two switches on the clutch pedal on cars with factory Cruise Control. At least there are on my 1998. One switch is the "Clutch Switch," which is depressed (closed) when the pedal is at rest. The other is the "Starter Immobilization Switch," which is open with the pedal at rest.

Curious - for those of you with completed swaps - did you retain the "Starter Immobilization Switch?" In other words, do you need to depress the clutch pedal in order to engage the starter?

Tipsy