My First BMW – My First Swap – LS2/T56 into an E36

[doktor b]

I've not worked on a hydroboost car. So I'm not sure I'll be much more help.
but I'll stay tuned for certain.

[TipsyMcStagger]

I've not worked on a hydroboost car. So I'm not sure I'll be much more help.
but I'll stay tuned for certain.

Are you familiar with the procedure detailed in this post?

I'd like to try to "manually" replicate this procedure (manually activating the ABS pump without DIS) but I'm wondering (1) how long each of the 2 DIS cycles keep the pump activated and (2) if the DIS bleeding order is the same as the normal bleeding order?

Tipsy


"Prerequisite:
- Motive bleeder or equivalent and able to go up to 29psi as per BMW spec.[/COLOR]
- Fluid collector and tube to be connected to bleeding nipples.[/COLOR]

1. Pressurise to 29psi.
2. Look for 'Ventilation' in Service Functions - DSC and follow the instructions. It will ask if it's a fluid chance, bleeding, unit replacement etc. and then prompt you to go to each wheel, starting with rear right.

Sequence is as follows:

- insert tube from collecting jar
- release bleeder screw until you see a reasonable flow (you won't have a mighty fast flow like manual bleeding)
- click to acknowledge in DIS
- hear pump activating and wait for the 2 cycles to end
- pump the pedal 5 times (bleeder screw still open)
- close bleeder screw
- go to next wheel indicated by DIS
- insert tube from collecting jar
... and so on.

It's very important to pump the pedal as per instructions otherwise it's very possible you will still have air trapped in the system."

[doktor b]

I'm not familiar with that technique. But I can see the merit of the pedal pumps to move a large volume of fluid.
I'm generally opposed to pedal actuation when the MC reservoir is under pressure tho.

but if it's from BMW, it must be a tried and tested method.

[TipsyMcStagger]

I'm not familiar with that technique. But I can see the merit of the pedal pumps to move a large volume of fluid.
I'm generally opposed to pedal actuation when the MC reservoir is under pressure tho.

but if it's from BMW, it must be a tried and tested method.

I really want to get this figured out so I went back out and tried to replicate this method to the best of my ability. The Motive bleeder gauge only goes up to 30 PSI. This procedure calls for 29 PSI, based on BMW parts. I was nervous I could potentially blow-out the Mustang reservoir, so I pumped it to 25 PSI.

I followed the normal sequence (right rear, left rear, etc), opening the bleeder and letting fluid flow under pressure. I then activated the ABS pump for two, five second bursts. I then (with the bleeder still open), applied five brake pedal actuations.

I'm generally opposed to pedal actuation when the MC reservoir is under pressure tho.

Your concern is valid. I could hear the cap on the MC protesting during the pedal applications. I repeated this at all four corners. I don't know if I replicated the procedure the same as the DIS would have performed, but there is no change. The pedal still hits the floor.

I'm thinking the next thing to do is replace the master cylinder.

Tipsy

[TipsyMcStagger]

I just read this note in the Cardone bench bleeding instructions:

NOTE: If firm pedal action results from bench bleeding but becomes soft after installation in vehicle, the problem is not the replacement master cylinder.

So, I guess it stands to reason that if I remove the MC and bench bleed it, if it builds resistance on the bench, the MC is not the issue.

Tipsy

[bimerok]

The issue with the bench test is it will be hard to determine that it has the actual resistance or just a little bit of resistance as the leverage and amount of force produced by feet is a lot higher. What seems like resistance on the bench could be peddal to the floor once installed.

Also, I'm not a fan of pressure bleeders vs pedal method, but I guess when you are in a crunch without a helper, there are not many other alternatives.

I'm too not familiar with hydro boost systems, but if the new/rebuilt MC is not too expensive, I would look into getting a new one next.

[TipsyMcStagger]

Theissue with the bench test is it will be hard to determine that it hasthe actual resistance or just a little bit of resistance as theleverage and amount of force produced by feet is a lot higher. Whatseems like resistance on the bench could be peddal to the floor onceinstalled.

Also,I'm not a fan of pressure bleeders vs pedal method, but I guess whenyou are in a crunch without a helper, there are not many otheralternatives.

I'm too not familiar with hydro boost systems, but if the new/rebuilt MC is not too expensive, I would look into getting a new one next.

I'm not really sure to go from here but I guess I'll try replacing the MC. They are $102 to $150 at the local chain auto stores, but none are in stock. I can get a Cardone from Rockauto for about $75. All are new, not reman's.

I got some seemingly good info in another thread with regard to running the ABS pump. Apparently, manually running the pump (eg; jumping the relay) simply runs the pump motor, without sequencing the valves. So in other words, it is ineffective to do so:

You cannot replicate the procedure without DIS, or similar.

When you bridge the relay, all you are doing is running the electric motor, but doing nothing with the valves. The info online is false. DIS has a specific sequence of events to turn on the pump and cycle the input and output valves. It's impossible manually.

The best you can do, since the pump is not brand new and completely dry, is bleed from longest tract to shortest, then drive and activate ABS,then bleed some more. You will clear out bubbles. The surface tension of the fluid already on the walls of the fluid tract should allow for full bleeding after a few good rebleeds.

Obviously, I can't drive the car right now. I guess I can try doing as Doktor B suggested and crack the fittings where they exit the ABS pump while under pressure from the Motive bleeder. Without being able to drive the car, that seems to be my only chance at bleeding air from the ABS unit, if there is in fact air in the ABS unit.

The other thought I had - perhaps the bore size of the Mustang MC could be at play? As best I can tell, the Mustang bore size is 1 1/6" (1.062"). I'm trying to setremine the bore size of the stock 1998 328iS MC.

Tipsy

[bimerok]

I've used Cardone product before and was pretty happy. I used their reman brake boosters when we did S50 and M50 swaps into e30.

Cracking open lines at ABS only helps not to drag possible remaining air through the rest of the line, which is not big of a deal once it is actually out of ABS.

Luckily I did not have much of an issue bleeding my brakes once I reinstalled my ABS after swap and then later after upgrading to M3 master. I was able to just use pedal method.

As for bore difference of a Mustang MC, it very well could be the issue. I assumed it was common thing to use with the kit you went with and was already proven solution. But if it is not sufficient in size for BMW calipers, then the pedal could definitely be falling to the floor.

As to the size of the BMW masters, I think I remember seeing some info in the track subforum. Try searching for e46 brake upgrade or massive lee big brake kit. There were two big threads andd I believe one of them listed comparasion of calipers and MC sizes.

[TipsyMcStagger]

As for bore difference of a Mustang MC, it very well could be the issue. I assumed it was common thing to use with the kit you went with and was already proven solution. But if it is not sufficient in size for BMW calipers, then the pedal could definitely be falling to the floor.

As to the size of the BMW masters, I think I remember seeing some info in the track subforum. Try searching for e46 brake upgrade or massive lee big brake kit. There were two big threads andd I believe one of them listed comparasion of calipers and MC sizes.

Other E36's have used a hydroboost conversion but there are various different size Mustang MC's, so I'm not entirely sure how what others have used compares to what I have. If the info I've found is accurate the E36 MC bore sizes are:

M3 = 25.4mm
325/328 = 23.81mm

The Mustang MC I have is supposedly 1.062", which according to Google = 26.98mm. So, the MC I have is 3.17mm larger than the stock 328 MC. If I understand the physics going on here, the larger bore of the Mustang MC moves more fluid than the stock E36 MC, which should result in less pedal travel.

I prefer to diagnose rather than throw parts at a problem but considering this is a used MC, it's probably not the worst decision to buy a new MC.

I went to pick-n-pull last week to buy E46 330/325 calipers and brackets for a "big brake" upgrade, similar to what you did on your 328. I don't intend to install used calipers, but I spent a few dollars to save a few dollars. Caliper core charges are about $60ish each, so I bought used calipers for $16 each to use as cores. I also got those 506 rear caliper brackets and a set of 330 front caliper brackets.

I hadn't planned to install the bigger brakes until after the car is on the road, simply so I can have a chance to feel the difference.

Tipsy

[TipsyMcStagger]

Success! This MC is a little different - at least by my experience. The lines to the ABS module exit on the bottom (red arrows). But on the side of the MC there are two bleeders (green arrows). I hadn't messed with these previously and I'm not really sure what they are for. But I figured they have to be there for a reason. So, considering I wouldn't be able to get a new MC until Monday at the earliest - and I have to travel again Monday night, I really wanted to try get this licked.

So, I hooked a length of hose to each bleeder, looped it back into the reservoir, opened each bleeder one at at time and gave the pedal a few pumps. I was doing it myself so I couldn't see how much air, if any, was escaping. But after just a few applications on each bleeder, I have pedal!

Tipsy

[doktor b]

Awesome!
these big builds seem (to me at least) to be a collection of small victories like this.
stoked you got it sorted.

[squashman702]

Good catch, glad you got it worked out.

[bimerok]

Awesome! It is nice that you were able to put that one behind you...

[Tim Mc]

I was going to suggest bleeding the MC... ;-)

Another task accomplished...

[TipsyMcStagger]

I was going to suggest bleeding the MC... ;-)

Another task accomplished...

Yep, have to travel again tomorrow. But it's one more thing crossed off the list.

Tipsy

[GG Allin]

Good info here. I'm getting ready to bleed mine and I too have Hydroboost, never messed with those bleeders in the past.

[TipsyMcStagger]

Received some sad news; Mike of JTR (the maker of this swap kit) passed away. Apparently, Greg - Mike's brother - will continue to operate Jags That Run. But I don't know if the JTR E36 LSx components have a future.

Continuing on with my glacial swap, I borrowed this idea form another thread; I've cut the under-hood battery tray and bent a portion down. This will get welded to the wheel-well to create a vertical surface on to which the heater valve will be mounted. I drilled-out the spot welds from a factory heater valve bracket (from the section of donor firewall I have) and will weld the bracket into place here.

Battery tray cut, bent and ready to be welded




I am also going to weld-in brackets to mount a Euro coolant expansion tank. Here's where I need some advice. I don't have any welding equipment, so I've got a guy lined up to make a welding house call. I need to have everything ready for him. I've read a couple of comments advising to take care that the expansion tank is not mounted so high that it interferes with the hood. But what about mounting the tank too low? I'm using this tank for ergonomics but I know many use it because it's self bleeding. To that end - help me with the physics here - is there a critical height I need to be aware of reference some other part of the cooling system?

Obviously, the car is in pieces so I can't really draw any reference lines to a radiator or any other part of the currently non-existent cooling system. But as mentioned above, I need to tell the welder where I want these things placed, so I need to be pretty sure about this.

In this picture (from which I borrowed the battery tray idea). you can see the Euro expansion tank firewall bracket mounted just below the DME cover:


But on this Vorshlag build, the firewall bracket is a bit lower. This is more in line with where I'd like to be positioned.

[unnatrl]

I have the same tank on my E39. It is placed more on available room than anything else. That being said, the steam port line that connects at the bottle is higher than the ports on the engine and the upper radiator hose. It has zero issue pushing coolant to the overflow. It still took some time to bleed all of the air out of the system (typical LS engine problem). I let the car sit overnight with the cap off, topped it in the morning. It took a few days of doing this to get the air completely bled out. Now that all the air is out, everything functions as it is supposed to.

[Fayettevillin]

Tipsy can u email me Fayettevillin@gmail.com

[TipsyMcStagger]

I have the same tank on my E39. It is placed more on available room than anything else. That being said, the steam port line that connects at the bottle is higher than the ports on the engine and the upper radiator hose. It has zero issue pushing coolant to the overflow. It still took some time to bleed all of the air out of the system (typical LS engine problem). I let the car sit overnight with the cap off, topped it in the morning. It took a few days of doing this to get the air completely bled out. Now that all the air is out, everything functions as it is supposed to.

Okay...I guess I don't need to obsess over it too much then. From what I was reading, I wasn't exactly sure if the tank needed to be the highest point in the system.

I guess worst case, it'll just need a little help to get fully bled. Thanks.

Tipsy

[TipsyMcStagger]

I know this seems like a small accomplishment but for me, this is a big hurdle overcome: I think my DBW pedal mount concept is a success! If you've been following along, you know that I'm using the colossal SSR/TBSS DBW pedal with my GTO E40 PCM (which is flashed to an SSR OS) so I can have cruise control. And you also know I have limited wherewithal for fabrication at home (no welding equipment).

I've been thinking about how I'm going to mount this DBW pedal for a long time. I've spent a lot of time lying on my back in the drivers foot-well staring upside-down at what I have to work with. And I'm always lying there thinking, "how am I going to work around this steering column?" Then, finally, I had an automotive epiphany. Rather than thinking about the column as an obstacle, why not utilize it as an asset? I figured I could come up with a way to securely mount the DBW pedal to the column itself.

I measured the diameter of the column (35mm) and started the search for some kind of metal clamp that would work for what I had in mind. I finally came across this on eBay:

Aluminum Goal Post Clamp


I wrote earlier that I'd found someone to straighten the pedal leg and to also cut a piece of aluminum plate to bolt to the pedal. I then had him Tig-weld the clamp to the plate. And this is the result:

Clamp tacked in place on aluminum plate


Once again, the pedal before and after it was cut and straightened


Close-up of clamp (just tacked for now)



Clamped to column




Close-up of clamp on the column



I don't have a seat in the car but it seems like it'll work just fine! One more thing checked-off the list!

As a funny aside, I brought that section of firewall to the welder along with the pedal and the clamp, for easy mock-up. He called the day before I was leaving town to tell me he had it tacked together. I couldn't get there before I left, so he had it sitting in his shop for six-plus weeks. Apparently, at no point did he bother to take advantage of the firewall section for mock-up. When I finally got there, I mocked it up myself. What I found was that he'd welded it together 90 degrees out!

Pedal...a bit too high


Tipsy

[Tim Mc]

Success!

Do you believe the clamp will hold up to some WOT stomping? I wonder if two clamps might be an idea...although difficult to see how robust the assembly is in images. I just know I've bent throttle rods and the like.

Not atypical of some service orgs...I dropped off my Subaru cylinder head for flowing (just run it on the bench/no port work) at a decent machine shop. 5 months later...still no flow numbers. I walked out to never return.

Thanks for posting.

[TipsyMcStagger]

Do you believe the clamp will hold up to some WOT stomping? I wonder if two clamps might be an idea...although difficult to see how robust the assembly is in images. I just know I've bent throttle rods and the like.

I think it'll be plenty strong. I guess time will tell.

Tipsy

[TipsyMcStagger]

Welding house call complete. Welded in brackets for the expansion tank. The firewall bracket is OE the piece and the front bracket on the strut-tower is just cobbled together. I'm hoping the position will be okay. I've read it's important that the tank be level. I laid a level on top of the tank when locating the front bracket. But after the fact - this tank is such on odd shape - I noticed the seam on the tank is actually downhill toward the front of the car. I hope it's not a huge deal.

I really like how the heater valve bracket came out. Now I just need to get these spots it cleaned up and painted before they have a chance to rust.

Tipsy

Welding House Call


Heater Valve and Expansion Tank Brackets


Heater Valve from above


Expansion Tank

[doktor b]

looks so good.
going to be so tidy even with all the hoses that are required.
i almost didn't put heat in mine because i hated how untidy having heater hoses was.