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Thread: Need some help with Euro S50B32

  1. #1
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    Need some help with Euro S50B32

    HI all,

    I ran a diagnostic on my car and found the following codes.

    138 Can timeout message 1
    25 Ignition coil, cylinder 1
    23 Ignition coil, cylinder 2
    24 Ignition coil, cylinder 3
    70 Knock sensor 1
    13 Oxygen sensor 2
    12 Oxygen sensor 1

    When cold, car idle fine one minute and then sputter the next. When driving power comes and go intermittently. And at times no power at all and just crawls along and there is popping noise coming from the exhaust when I try to floor the accelerator. After killing the engine and waited for a while and restart, the car would suddenly work fine with minor issue like lost of power but this is only for a short while. After engine warmed up, it ran fine. I can still fill some misfiring TBH but not as bad.

    I know I need to replace the O2 sensors and Knock sensor. A couple of questions.

    1. What is the part number for knock sensor 1. I am assuming its the one right at the front of the engine block under the plenum. I know there are 3 knock sensors on this engine.
    2. Is the knock sensor causing fault code to register with the ignition coil 1, 2 and 3 or is this a separate issue? i.e, is the ignition coil faulty? I haven't yet try to switch them around. Planning to do it this weekend.

    Additional note. My mech just 2 weeks ago refurbished the vanos seal using Beisan seal plus additional gasket purchased from BMW dealership. And we noticed the last mech who was doing the 318 to M3 engine swap switched the knock sensor 1 connector with the ICV connector causing the idle to be erratic. But that has been solved. Just wondering if the connector switch may have spoiled the knock sensor 1.

    Thanks in advance on any help guys.

    Regards,

    Alex

    - - - Updated - - -

    One other question, if all the fault codes are sorted out, will the can timeout message 1 disappear? At this moment, I can erase all the other code but code 138 just won't go away. But after erasing the codes, they will come back again after driving the car.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Another fault code popped up. Switch gear. On peake tool scanner, its Code 50 Table 14.
    BMW E60 530i & F30 320i

    "Its sometimes better to shut up and be thought of as a fool than to speak and have all doubts removed"

  2. #2
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    That sounds like a lot of failures in one go. Have you had the car for a while? Do you know its history? If these all happened at once I would start by checking the DME connector and other points on the engine harness.

    It would be a good idea to try swapping the coils, obviously after clearing the codes. If it is only firing properly on 3 cylinders, that could explain the knock sensor code. It would be giving out no signal while the nearby cylinders weren't firing and could throw a dead sensor code. I am not sure if the voltage that is supplied to the ICV could damage the knock sensor or not. It is a piezo crystal. Maybe somebody can tell us.

    Let us know how you go.

  3. #3
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    Hmmmm... Doesn't sound very promising. Will be doing some swapping of the coil tomorrow. I still have six more coil pack from the seller so at least will be able test them all. I am hoping cylinder 1,2 and 3 are issues caused by something else. If its the knock sensor then replacing that should hopefully fix it. Fingers crossed. I have had the oxygen sensor warning since I first had the engine installed 2 years ago. Its been in and out of a friend's garage ever since then. I bought it off a seller recommended by some posters in UK bimmerforum. I think he sold me a bad unit (bad as in a lot of issues). He told me its a good engine right out of a friend's car who just had an accident but the engine was all fine. I bought lots of stuff from him before and trusted him. He told me he needed to drain the oil and steam cleaned the engine before shipping but he never did.

    Anyway, that's all the history I have of the engine. Ha! This will be the first and last I would ever do an engine swap. Cost me fair amount. I am really hoping changing these parts will fix it. I do have another engine harness from the same engine. I might try swapping that if I can't fix it. Will check if there is any sockets that are being wrongly connected. And clean the connectors to avoid bad contacts.

    Will update again tomorrow after doing some work on it.

    If anyone else can offer some help that will be great. Thanks.
    BMW E60 530i & F30 320i

    "Its sometimes better to shut up and be thought of as a fool than to speak and have all doubts removed"

  4. #4
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    Sorry, it is not someone else but me again. I hope my advice wasn't completely useless ; )

    I just noticed you said it was an engine swap. Running ok for 2 years. Is that right? I have replaced a lot of engine sensors on my bog-standard 1996 M3 (S50 B32), all for fairly minor running issues but I have never had a long list of fault codes come up. You have a lot of stuff going on at once. I wouldn't "shoot the messenger" by replacing loads of sensors. The engine harness would be a much smarter and cheaper place to start. I would kick off by inspecting all of the connectors, starting with the easiest ones to get at. Inspect them, use contact cleaner, check the cable runs for areas that could have damaged insulation. This could happen easily in such a cramped engine bay if the loom wasn't run carefully. I might be off track but I know what it is like to keep throwing money at a problem. I just get the feeling from what you have written that there might be an underlying problem that is giving you so many symptoms at once.

    The last thing is, what are you using to read the codes? Your engine is not OBD I or II and Peake tools are pretty limited with the MSS50 ECU. You should hook it up to a GT-1 or ISTA and get the full picture of what's going on. Live data would be a big help.

    Hope this helps.

  5. #5
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    Hi Chris,

    No need to apologise. Appreciate all your comments and advice. I did some work today. I had a couple of NGK lambda sensor I bought a while back which my mech couldn't fit cos the head was different. But what I notice was that the number of on each wires were the same for both connectors. So I went ahead, cut and splice the connectors. Plugged the new sensors in and thought I sorted the problem out. But after test driving the damn codes came back again for both sensors.

    I think I might go ahead with replacing the harness as I have another one lying around. I think you may be right. I replaced cylinder 1,2 and 3 coil pack with another set of coil packs and cleaned all the connectors with contact cleaner and what's the odd that all 3 coil packs threw the same code. And my gear selector switch fault code comes and goes.

    My engine is from a 1998 M3 so that should be OBD II I am guessing and the OBD terminal is in the engine bay. I am using Peake R5/fcx-II code reader. I had a friend used his Bosch KTS tool to read my code and the mech used his Launch tool and all read the same codes.

    Abit of history of this harness. When the engine was first swapped over. The car started but ran with one or 2 cylinders not firing. When the mech troubleshoot the issue he noticed the wire looms under the cowling had a wire cleanly snipped apart. He connected it and the engine started running on all cylinder. just 2 weeks ago, when another mech was trying to sort out my Vanos and ABS light, he noticed the ABS cable was cut (this time possible by a rat). So this harness may have many other hidden issues which might take a long time to solve.

    Just one question. If i use the other harness (Assuming its all in fine condition) is it easy to swap the harness over with the engine in place? Thanks

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hi Chris, to answer one of your question on whether the car was running fine for the last 2 years. Well no. It has been in and out of the garage and frankly I only drove may be a month's worth out of that 2 years since the swap. My initial complain has always been the idling and power loss. I have always known about the lambda sensors issue from the start but wanted the idling sorted out first. So I bought a new ICV but apparently that didn't help. of course due to the fact that the wiring was swapped between the knock sensor 1 and icv. After correcting this issue, only now I am looking at trying to solve the other issues. The idling now is perfect. But I am getting power loss in gear 2 and 3. I had to let go of the pedal in order to regain the power.This has been from the start and I have always attributed it to the Vanos. After the Vanos fix 2 weeks ago, hmmmm.... I might have just wasted money again for a non issue with the Vanos. Cos the power loss is still there. Now I am thinking this has to do with the coil pack suddenly not working. When I first erase the code, the car ran fine and throws only the lambda and knock sensor code. Then when I get this power loss moment, I get the cylinder 1, 2 and 3 fault codes. Sigh! the agony....
    BMW E60 530i & F30 320i

    "Its sometimes better to shut up and be thought of as a fool than to speak and have all doubts removed"

  6. #6
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    I would definitely try and replace the harness if you have another one. I have never done it but most of it passes over the back of the engine below the heater grille. You would certainly need to take the intake plenum off to get at all the sensors under it. I don't know of any part that would need you to move the engine but I am not up on this one.

    Our cars did not comply to OBD protocols. This is one of the main reasons why the US never got them. They cannot be registered there without fancy paperwork. That is not to say some of the diagnostics are not the same. It was probably better than most cars for emissions in its day, just not approved. The round connector on my 1996 car connects to my Peake R5 but I get a lot more info from the ISTA. It does things like run a live diagnostic of the VANOS. Anyway, I don't think you need to worry about that. You know what codes you are getting. You just need to find out why you are getting so many.

  7. #7
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    Hi Chris,

    Today was a holiday where I am so had the whole day to sort out the wire loom. I decided to take the engine loom out and replace it with the second one I had lying around. I went through both wires and found some differences. For one, one of the cylinder number 4 wire (that was cut for no apparent reason and spliced back by my mech) was not even running along the correct path on the wire loom. And the loom going to the ecu seems to have been messed around. The second loom I had looked decent enough. Took me 12 hours to get the second loom in and I still have the gearbox, air pump and oxygen sensor connectors to attached. That will have to be tomorrow. Now I am hoping the loom is good and I haven't messed up installing the loom in. Fingers crossed.

    Will report back tomorrow when its all done.

    Alex
    BMW E60 530i & F30 320i

    "Its sometimes better to shut up and be thought of as a fool than to speak and have all doubts removed"

  8. #8
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    I have completed the harness change over. On the 'new' harness there was an extra relay (fuse??) connector going into the ECU compartment running the same way as the ECU wires. I didn't plug any relay in at first. It seems to accept the same relay as the one in the middle of the fuse box circled in red.
    $(KGrHqV,!k8FH6QCZ4q1BSD-Yep0fQ~~60_12.JPG
    Tried to start the engine and it just cranked but no start. So figured that the connector is important. I took out the relay from the old harness and plugged that into the connector. Tried to start again and this time the engine roared to live. Yippy!.... Strange that the old one didn't have this part when the 'new' harness has it.

    Update on the fault codes. I am still getting the Can timeout message 1. Not sure why this is the case. No other codes showed up. But driving to my office today and testED it again, I am getting the Lambda sensors fault codes. I did change the 2 lambda sensors to NGK ones but because the connector weren't the same I used back the old connector and spliced the new NGK O2 sensor to it. Pray this is the reason why the sensors are still throwing codes. So far the car seems to be running fine with no hesitation or losing power. So I am guessing and praying the change over has fixed the coil pack issue. Knock sensor code so far hasn't return. Another thing, the new harness seems to have fixed my aircon issue. The air flow will stop flowing after a short drive as the flap inside will automatically close. I had to press the recycle button for it not to do that. Now I don't have to press the button and the air flow is still going.

    Anyway, early days yet. Will update further when I get more time with the car. Thanks again for helping Chris.
    BMW E60 530i & F30 320i

    "Its sometimes better to shut up and be thought of as a fool than to speak and have all doubts removed"

  9. #9
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    That sounds very promising. Best of luck with the other codes. It must feel good to have it running well again.

  10. #10
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    Hi Chris,

    Yes. I think I have the car sorted out so very happy. I think I figured out why the can timeout message is still there. Well this car is a swap and the 1998 M3 engine and ECU came from a car with airbag as standard. Since my car doesn't have airbag I guess that's why the message keep popping up. I received the new Bosch oxygen sensors and fitted them. So far no more issue with loss of power, in fact the engine feels more responsive and fun to drive. Happy!...

    Alex
    BMW E60 530i & F30 320i

    "Its sometimes better to shut up and be thought of as a fool than to speak and have all doubts removed"

  11. #11
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    Congratulations. Have fun!

  12. #12
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    Hi Chris,

    Thanks. But the celebration was kinda premature. When I first crank the engine in the morning, it runs fine for a 30 second or so and then the whole engine shakes. Fault codes came up was the same as before which was cylinder 1, 2 and 3. O2 sensor not throwing any codes. The engine runs crap for a few minutes and I had to switch the engine off a few times. When I try to drive the car during this time, the car hesitates, power comes and goes. Sometimes the exhaust will pop. After switching off and on for a few times, the engine will suddenly come back to life. And for the whole day I can drive the car with no issue what so ever.

    I have not heard it before but now just after starting engine, I can hear a whizzing or whining noise somewhere in the engine, I will try to pin point it the next time. Its seems to come only at start up even when the engine is hot and running fine.

    I thought the cylinder issue was caused by the O2 sensors but now that the O2 sensors have been replaced, the problem with the cylinder is still there albeit only at cold start.

    Will try to change the MAF and see if that helps.

    Any idea Chris? Sorry mate. Keep having issue for you to help me solve.

    Alex
    BMW E60 530i & F30 320i

    "Its sometimes better to shut up and be thought of as a fool than to speak and have all doubts removed"

  13. #13
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    I am sorry to hear that. You must be very disappointed.

    The first thing I should say is that there would definitely be people out there who know a lot more than I do. When it comes to the S50 B32, I have a sample base of 1. Hopefully somebody with some knowledge on issues like this will be reading and can help.

    What I can fairly confidently say is that you would be better off getting some in depth diagnostics than changing parts one by one. If you haven't done it since the wiring harness swap, you should read all of the stored codes, make a note of them then clear them as well as adaptations. After that, study the live data and look at mixture, air flow intake temp etc. You might spot something obvious. With something like a GT-1 or ISTA diagnostic tool you can check individual components. Your VANOS actuators could also be an issue. The solenoids and their connectors are a common failure point. Again, the right diagnostic tool can run a test program for the S50 VANOS.

    These are just some general thoughts. As I said, I am far from a diagnostics expert. These are very complex engines and have lots of mysteries.

    Stay positive, good luck.

  14. #14
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    Hmmm this is a difficult one, could be multiple reasons of failure.

    You can check coil resistence by following this link,
    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...-packs-(w-pics)

    I would try to get some better software to check your car, perhaps GT1/DIS you can get a copy on a laptop and will need a connector for it, this will give you live data and be able to tell you about the sensor ranges, and if they are out. The software also has Vanos tests, which can tell you if vanos has been repaired properly or not.

    The worst is that your ECU is gone, best would be to get another M3 with same ECU and swap the ECU over to check, maybe very difficult to find another M3 with exact same ECU where you are though. One thing to check is if there is any water damage in the location of the ECU, if there is signs of water damage, you can start looking for another ECU.

    What is the condition of the following:

    Vacuum hoses, especially smaller ones, I know a s50B32 has a very small hose that gets damaged from heat/oil and cause these issues. Also condition of your ICV, have you cleaned it? What rating of fuel are you using, I had a rough running issue with 95 RON once, and only use 98 RON now, this can cause knock sensor codes.
    Last edited by vanhack; 11-12-2013 at 07:05 AM.

  15. #15
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    Hi Chris,

    I just installed my friend 3.0 MAF (after cleaning with contact cleaner) it seems to be working fine. But the litmus test will be tomorrow morning when I fire up the engine. But when I test drove the car around after installing the MAF this evening, the car feels better.
    Will report back. Hoping the MAF will solve this annoying problem.

    BTW, I was reading up on JCcooper's post on Vanos operation and I believe you mentioned having the same issue as what I am experiencing. Rough engine on cold start. Seems like this is a very common issue amongst M3 engine.

    Fingers crossed.

    Alex

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by vanhack View Post
    Hmmm this is a difficult one, could be multiple reasons of failure.

    You can check coil resistence by following this link,
    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...-packs-(w-pics)

    I would try to get some better software to check your car, perhaps GT1/DIS you can get a copy on a laptop and will need a connector for it, this will give you live data and be able to tell you about the sensor ranges, and if they are out. The software also has Vanos tests, which can tell you if vanos has been repaired properly or not.

    The worst is that your ECU is gone, best would be to get another M3 with same ECU and swap the ECU over to check, maybe very difficult to find another M3 with exact same ECU where you are though. One thing to check is if there is any water damage in the location of the ECU, if there is signs of water damage, you can start looking for another ECU.

    What is the condition of the following:

    Vacuum hoses, especially smaller ones, I know a s50B32 has a very small hose that gets damaged from heat/oil and cause these issues. Also condition of your ICV, have you cleaned it? What rating of fuel are you using, I had a rough running issue with 95 RON once, and only use 98 RON now, this can cause knock sensor codes.
    Hi, Thanks for your input. I am asking a friend of mine who has a Bosch KTS diagnostic tool to check the engine when he is free hopefully this week. He has been helping me out during the whole process. Without him I wouldn't have come this far. God bless him. Condition of the parts you mentioned are good with no vacuum leaks. ICV is brand new and so are the spark plugs. I used RON98 here. The knock sensor issue has been sorted out and so are the O2 sensors. The car runs like a dream when its all warmed up (although I don't have a basis for comparison).

    With regards to ECU, will the car still run properly if the ECU is defective? I am also thinking along this line actually as I am getting this Can timeout Message 1 keep coming up every time I scan the car. And my gear switch seems to be throwing codes randomly.

    Cylinder 1, 2 and 3 throwing codes as well when I get this misfiring issue in the morning when fired up the first time. But I am guessing this is probably the result of an issue rather than the cause.

    I guess I can still source for another ECU but my problem would be the EWS system. I guess I can switch the key chip around so I can use the existing key. Is this possible? But this not a cheap solution as another ecu with key and ews module would cost me another USD400.

    I guess I can live with the cold start issue until I have time to really dig deep into it as the car runs well enough after the cold start issue.

    I am still doing a few things on the engine and if anything positive comes up I will definitely post up here.

    Alex
    BMW E60 530i & F30 320i

    "Its sometimes better to shut up and be thought of as a fool than to speak and have all doubts removed"

  16. #16
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    I am not sure if ecu will run partially, or if it is completely damaged. Since you have most of the preventive maintenance items swapped, you should look at tps and coil packs, see if you are getting signal at coils.
    E36 Euro 3.0 M3 (black points accumulator) Toyota Prado - 4x4 shopping trolley (gets me to the scrapyards fast)

  17. #17
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    Wow! it's been almost 3 years since I last posted here. Thought it would be good to update on my car. Its been running fine now for a while and I have managed to use it for work and chores. The issue I had at cold start resolved itself for some strange reason. Had the vanos solenoid cover bolts failed on me a few months back and that damaged one of the solenoid. Had to source used one from ebay and got that installed. A year ago, the differential broke when my mech was testing the car when I brought the car in for other complain. Got that fixed. Hmm... what else could go wrong?

    The one nagging problem I keep having with the car is the door cards. The vinyl keeps coming off under the sun. Had to get used sets off ebay to replaced the old ones. So now I only use the car when its not too hot. Or definitely in the evening. Not ideal but good enough. Just couldn't stand driving a car with bad interior. Will post pic if I get the chance.
    BMW E60 530i & F30 320i

    "Its sometimes better to shut up and be thought of as a fool than to speak and have all doubts removed"

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