AMSOIL Manual Synchromesh Transmission Fluid

[BenFenner]

I'm not seeing different specs for MTF-LT-1. But I'm seeing that MTF-LT-2 is also claimed to be the OEM fluid for our transmission?

[Vintage42]

... But I'm seeing that MTF-LT-2 is also claimed to be the OEM fluid for our transmission?

It would help if you could share your source for that claim.
MTF-LT-2 did not exist when our cars were built. The sticker on the transmission says MTF-LT-1:
MTFFluidChange.jpg
Page 020-10 Table of Fluids in the Bentley Manual compiled in 2005 still only says MTF-LT-1.

However, MTF-LT-1 has since been discontinued:
http://parts.bmwofsouthatlanta.com/p...229408942.html

It was replaced by MTF-LT-2 with some improvements:
http://parts.bmwofsouthatlanta.com/p...220309031.html

[kobayashi]

I'm not seeing different specs for MTF-LT-1. But I'm seeing that MTF-LT-2 is also claimed to be the OEM fluid for our transmission?

It may be approved after the fact but the factory fill was MTF-LT-1. #2 wasn't introduced by BMW until the end of 2003.

Everything that I've found shows the LT2 to have the same VIS100 as LT1 of 7.5. Don't use LT3 since it has a VIS100 of 6.1.

"D. From model year 1998 (9/97 production) all manual transmissions are filled with Esso/Exxon "MTF-LT-1" long-term
fluid.
A yellow label with the letters "MTF-LT-1" is located next to the oil filler plug.
Page 3 of 3
No oil change is required for the entire service life of these transmissions.
In the event of a repair, the transmission must only be filled with the long-term oil.
Esso/Exxon MTF-LT-1
BMW P/N 83 22 9 408 942.
E. From model year 2004 some manual transmissions are filled with Castrol "MTF-LT-2" long-term fluid. This fluid has the
same properties as the "MTF-LT-1" fluid indicated above in section D. The "MTF-LT-1" fluid may be mixed and/or
substituted for the "MTF-LT-2" manual transmission fluid.
2006 MY and later E60 M5 and E63/64 M6 equipped with and without SMG utilizes only MTF-LT-2 fluid.
2006 MY and later E85 M Roadster and Coupe require MTF-LT-2 fluid.
2008 MY and later E90, E92 and E93 M3 require MTF-LT-2 fluid for conventional manual transmissions. This fluid is not
to be used in the Dual-Clutch Manual Transmission (M DCT Drive logic). Refer to Operating Fluids, Group 28 for the Dual-
Clutch Manual Transmission ((M DCT Drive logic) recommended lubricant.
MTF-LT-2 Fluid
BMW P/N 83 22 0 309 031
F. From Model Year 2006 all vehicles equipped with a manual transmission and the N52, N54 engines require the MTFLT-
3 long-term fluid. Refer to label on transmission, if label is missing enter vin number into EPC to acquire a new label
with fluid description.
MTF-LT-3
BMW P/N 83 22 0 409 878
No oil change is required for the entire service life of these transmissions."

[BenFenner]

It would help if you could share your source for that claim.

The source for the claim is in the post where I made the claim (post #24).
Click the little blue arrow ( ) to see the full source post.

Everything that I've found shows the LT2 to have the same VIS100 as LT1 of 7.5.

It would seem 2kredz3 has some explaining to do? He's the one claiming LT2 has a VIS100 of 10.6.

[rf900rkw]

randy, as someone who appreciates your attention to detail, and someone who's getting ready to fill his transmission with amsoil 5w-30 "manual synchromesh fluid" after extensive research, i would love to hear your explanation for why you feel it is "too thick" when the viscosity ratings are thinner than the oem fluid specs?

Or are you talking about a different amsoil fluid?

ltf-2 38.3 7.7
mtf 48.3 9.7



Edit: sorry, I should have read the rest of the thread, first.

[2kredz3]

Vintage, there is something distinctly different between the 5 speed in your 4 cyl car and the 5 speed in the non m z3. . .not to mention the ZF transmission.

This discussion comes up every few years so it has been beat to death.

From Amsoil website for the 97' 1.9L 5 speed Z3:

Manual Transmission,S5D250G (5-SPD)......GL-4
All TEMPS......80 [1]
No AMSOIL Product Recommendation
Manual Transmission,S5D250G (5-SPD)......GLS [2]
All TEMPS......
No AMSOIL Product Recommendation
Manual Transmission,S5D250G (5-SPD)......GLS [3]
All TEMPS......
No AMSOIL Product Recommendation

[1] Manual transmissions which have no label on the bell housing
require a GL-4 SAE 80 mineral based transmission oil, or a
reputable brand of SAE 80 which meets specifications
MIL-L-2105.
[2] Manual transmission which have a green label with the
words Special Oil next to the fill plug require synthetic
transmission fluid, Mobil SHC 630
[3] Manual transmissions which have an orange label
& 17mm Hex plug require Dexron II or Dexron III.

So right there is 3 different variations of transmission, with the same transmission code. One even recommends SAE 80.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

Now 6cyl non m cars:

Manual Transmission,S5D250G (5-SPD)......GLS [2]
All TEMPS......
No AMSOIL Product Recommendation

[2] From MY 1998 (9/97 production) that have a yellow label with
the letters MTF-LT-1 require Esso/Exxon MTF-LT-1 BMW P/N
83 22 9 408 942. From MY 2004 some are filled with Castrol
MTF-LT-2. MTF-LT-1 may be substituted and or mixed with
MTF-LT-2.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

M cars / ZF trans:

Manual Transmission,S5D320Z (5-SPD)......GLS [2]
All TEMPS......
No AMSOIL Product Recommendation

[2] From MY 1998 (9/97 production) that have a yellow label with
the letters MTF-LT-1 require Esso/Exxon MTF-LT-1 BMW P/N
83 22 9 408 942. From MY 2004 some are filled with Castrol
MTF-LT-2. MTF-LT-1 may be substituted and or mixed with
MTF-LT-2.



I reposted this because there is only one transmission that Amsoil even says anything about ATF for and that is 1 of the 3 variations of the 5 speed behind the 4 cyl engine.

I do not think half the people that are reading this know what 10 points on the CST scale actually is, so lets put it into perspective.

Pentosin MTF-LT-2 (75w80 GL4 gear Lube) --> http://www.pentosin.net/specsheets/Pentosin_MTF-2.pdf

Kv @ 40c = 38.3
Kv @ 100c = 7.7

Amsoil Universal ATF (New Formula)

Kv @ 40c = 38.5
Kv @ 100c = 7.5

Redline D4 ATF
Kv @ 40c = 34
Kv @ 100c = 7.5

Redline MTL GL4
Kv @ 40c = 54.1
Kv @ 100c = 10.4

Royal Purple Synchromax
Kv @ 40c = 38
KV @ 100c = 7.7

Royal Purple ATF
Kv @ 40c = 35
Kv @ 100c = 7.5

Amsoil 5w30 Synchromesh

Kv @ 40c = 48.3
Kv @ 100c = 9.7

Amsoil 75w90 GL4 Gear Lube (Manual transaxle and Transmission Lube)

Kv @ 40c = 87.6
Kv @ 100c = 13.9

Amsoil 75w90 Gear Lube GL5

Kv @ 40c = 109
Kv @ 100c = 16.8


So looking at the numbers the ATF is closest to the factory fill, I just ask you this. . .how did you like the factory fill? Sure, it feels great when cold but what about hot?

Notice the Pentosin is a GL4, not an ATF. Why is that?

lets look at GL4: API GL-4. Oils for various conditions - light to heavy. They contain up to 4.0% effective anti-scuffing additives. Designed for bevel and hypoid gears which have small displacement of axes, the gearboxes of trucks, and axle units. These oils are standard for synchronized gearboxes, especially in Europe, and may also be recommended for non-synchronized gearboxes of US trucks, tractors and buses and for main and other gears of all vehicles. GL-4 oils may also be used in many limited-slip differentials.

Everyone knows "Bob is the oil guy" did you see this thread: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1231182

LOL, welcome to Kelly's world. The common complaint with Ams MTF, which is too thick, is stiff crunchy COLD shifts. Somehow, this has morphed into happening only on track cars and in Texas, and can be fixed by going to even thicker oil.

Seriously if your going to take a jab at me get the facts straight, I make it very clear that the thicker fluid is for people that run into notchy shifts when the trans is hot not cold and I tell them that it will increase the notchy shifts when cold. . .for all of 5 miles when the transmission warms up. Frankly you should not be driving your car hard for the first 5 miles until the engine oil is above 160 so what does it matter if you have additional notchy shifts when cold, to have silky smooth shifts when it is hot?

- - - Updated - - -

It would seem 2kredz3 has some explaining to do? He's the one claiming LT2 has a VIS100 of 10.6.

No I don't I was corrected later in that thread, I will try and get that corrected so this mistake is not used in the future!

thnx

[BenFenner]

Pentosin MTF-LT-2 (75w80 GL4 gear Lube) --> http://www.pentosin.net/specsheets/Pentosin_MTF-2.pdf

Kv @ 40c = 38.3
Kv @ 100c = 7.7

This makes a big difference to me. Why does this data not match what you have listed for MTF-LT-2 in this post?

[kobayashi]

^^^ This is the correct info.

[2kredz3]

This makes a big difference to me. Why does this data not match what you have listed for MTF-LT-2 in this post?

I do not think those numbers were for Pentosin but I will have to check around and see. Like I said it was edited later in the thread I just never edited the main post, sorry for the confusion.

I also made changes to the rest of the fluids as some others have changed as well.

[rf900rkw]

It would seem 2kredz3 has some explaining to do? He's the one claiming LT2 has a VIS100 of 10.6.

See posts 62 through 70 in his oft quoted thread. http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...Amsoil-MTF-WOW

Note that Kelly said he would correct the numbers in his first post, which did happen. But it didn't fix the already quoted text throughout the thread.

[BenFenner]

A correction in the first post would be prudent it seems. I'd appreciate it.
I really wanted something thinner than OEM (assuming that's what I have now, not sure though). I guess my second round of research was too cursory. =/

It's not the end of the world. I planned on trying a few fluids anyway. Nothing can be as bad as what I have now either, so that's a plus.

[2kredz3]

See posts 62 through 70 in his oft quoted thread. http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...Amsoil-MTF-WOW

Note that Kelly said he would correct the numbers in his first post, which did happen. But it didn't fix the already quoted text throughout the thread.

You are correct, I will own that.

- - - Updated - - -

A correction in the first post would be prudent it seems. I'd appreciate it.
I really wanted something specifically thinner than OEM. I guess my second round of research was too cursory. =/

It's not the end of the world. I planned on trying a few fluids anyway. Nothing can be as bad as what I have now either, so that's a plus.

Why do you want thinner then OEM? Just out of curiosity?

[BenFenner]

I am assuming I have OEM in my transmission now. It is a pretty good assumption based on the previous owner's habits/records. I'm not sure how old it is though. It is at least 40k miles old based on the PO's records. It could be much older.
Regardless, it crunches everywhere, all the time. It certainly could be the uncommonly low clutch pick-up point, but right now every shift takes a lot of time and care to avoid crunching dog teeth. Cold is worse, but even warm it's not good.

(There was one instance on the track the fluid seemed to overheat, but I'm ignoring that for now)

[2kredz3]

I am assuming I have OEM in my transmission now. It is a pretty good assumption based on the previous owner's habits/records. I'm not sure how old it is though. It is at least 40k miles old based on the PO's records. It could be much older.
Regardless, it crunches everywhere, all the time. It certainly could be the uncommonly low clutch pick-up point, but right now every shift takes a lot of time and care to avoid crunching dog teeth. Cold is worse, but even warm it's not good.

(There was one instance on the track the fluid seemed to overheat, but I'm ignoring that for now)

That does not sound like OEM fluid. My bet is some sort of gear oil since it crunches when cold and when warm.

[BenFenner]

That's what I'm hoping. I'll be reporting back soon. No worries. =]

[rf900rkw]

Ben, it sounds like you are a little farther along than I was. I had two issue points Cold was majorly notchy, bordering on crunching. Once it warmed up things were okay, until things got to full temp. Then the clutch quit releasing fully. This was two separate problems that both go under the heading of notchy shifting.

For the cold problem, as an experiment I drained the MTF (low mile, still have it in a jar) and filled with some random ATF I had in stock. The difference cold and warm was amazing. I did this just as a temporary "suck-n-see", but the difference was such that I haven't changed it back out yet. I will likely pick a good Dex-iii (only) synthetic ATF.

The warm problem was cured by replacing the clutch flex hose. It brought the release point up to the same point as cold.

And for the record, I changed out the original fluid because the box was a bit notchy cold. I went with the Amsoil even though they said it did not match specs. This was long before the topic came up here. Changing to the Amsoil made no difference, so I was resigned to live with it. Over the years I gained enough detail experience with this box to know that what I had wasn't right, so went off to the experimenting.


Kelly - I saw that it had now been edited, so I changed my reply to match the new condition. Unforch, you picked up the old one in your quote.

[kobayashi]

from here: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...50#Post3024750

Manual Transmission Fluids (MTL) Fluids containing MTL Application Specific Additive Packages with GL-4 Ratings

Choosing a Manual Transmission fluid can be confusing.

Many times there is simply a specification referenced and no information about the viscosity of a fluid at 100C, where the oil viscosity is documented at the higher testing temperature.

What I recommend you do when looking for a replacement fluid is to determine the viscosity of the fluid at 100C either from the manufacturer's Product Data Sheet or from a New oil Analysis or VOA.

After knowing the viscosity at 100C (212F), one can then attempt to match up the fluid to one or more of those below:

A. The four MTL fluids closest to a Kinematic Viscosity of 6.1 (About the same viscosity as a DexronVI) or so are:

1. Castrol Syntrans FE 75W,

2. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-3,

3. Honda MTII or MTF 2.

4. Ford FML-XT-11-QDC


B. The next higher viscosity MTL would be the 7.5 cSt versions (About the same viscosity as a DexronIII)

1. Royal Purple's Synchromax

2. Ravenol MTF-2

3. Honda MTF

4. VW part number G052512A2

5. GM Manual Transmission and Transfer Case Fluid

6. BMW (Pentosin) MTF-LT-1, 2


C. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Castrol Syntrans V FE 75W-80 8.0cSt

D. The next higher viscosity MTL would be BG Synchroshift II 8.2 cSt

E. The next higher viscosity is Mopar Type MS-9417 MTL 9.0cSt

F. The next higher viscosity MTL would be Pennzoil Synchromesh 9.3 cSt




G. The next group of MTL’s are in the 10.x cSt range are:

1. Redline MTL 70W80.

2. Amsoil MTL

3. GM Synchromeshs’

4. Volvo MTF 645

5. Ford Motor Craft XT-M5-QS


H. The next higher viscosity MTL would be:

1. Redline MT-85 – 12.0 cSt



I. The next higher viscosity MTLs would be:

1. Amsoil MTG 14.5 cSt

2. Redline MT-90 15.6 cSt

3. Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90

[BenFenner]

Funny to see Redline MT-90 is so thick. The SE-R transmission loves it. =D

[kobayashi]

Funny to see Redline MT-90 is so thick. The SE-R transmission loves it. =D

You thought that the Z3M and SE-R transmissions were the same? They are not.

[BenFenner]

What made you think I thought they were the same?

[2kredz3]

Kelly - I saw that it had now been edited, so I changed my reply to match the new condition. Unforch, you picked up the old one in your quote.

Thanks, I will go through and fix it now :-)

[Z3MROADY]

I put in AMSOIL MANUAL SYNCHROMESH TRANS FLUID MTFQT-EA. It did not say 5w-30 on it anywhere on the label. I've seen earlier posts and pics of the Amsoil MTF with "5w-30" listed on the label. Are they one in the same with packaging updates? Curious. My local Dealer was not sure.

[droz3]

Z3MROADY, here is what I bought a month ago

[Z3MROADY]

Z3MROADY, here is what I bought a month ago

Yes that's what I used. No mention of viscosity on label. I'm guessing it's the same as Mtf 5 w-30.

[Vintage42]

What a difference in forums. Post #1 was put up on Bimmerfest at the same time as here:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=731073
To date, not one comment on it.