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Thread: Camshaft upgrade on an M62tu?

  1. #101
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    JimLev is offline Artifically Aspirated Moderator
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    IIRC the center lines are the same, the lift more. Might have more info at home, still on vacation.
    CAT cams sold cams for the 4.4 with more lift than the 4.4 engine but less than the 4.6 cams.

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    Adding more info here, the spring pockets on the 4.4 and 4.6 measure the same, the springs are different, the unknown part now is why does the 4.6 work with less valve to piston clearance?

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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1999 540i m View Post
    the unknown part now is why does the 4.6 work with less valve to piston clearance?

    IMG_1187.JPGIMG_1188.JPG
    Because the 4.6 cams have more lift than the 4.4 cams.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    Because the 4.6 cams have more lift than the 4.4 cams.
    I think his point is if the 4.6 cams work in the 4.6 with less clearance, then they should work in the 4.4

  5. #105
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    Doesn't this require 4.6 heads for the 4.6 cams?

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
    I think his point is if the 4.6 cams work in the 4.6 with less clearance, then they should work in the 4.4
    This, + I think lifter squish is a factor in the clearance, I don't know

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by purplecty View Post
    Doesn't this require 4.6 heads for the 4.6 cams?

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    4.6 and 4.4 heads are the same so far, minus flow testing
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    With the minor point of combustion chamber clearance in the 4.6 head for the piston clearance.
    Easily fly cut into 4.4 head if one was going to put a 4.4 head onto a 4.6

  8. #108
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    There was no spring bind when I put the 4.6 cams in the 4.4 engine.
    The valves and lifters for both motors are the same.
    Don't know what the difference between the springs are, maybe slightly shorter to offset the additional lift??

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    There was no spring bind when I put the 4.6 cams in the 4.4 engine.
    The valves and lifters for both motors are the same.
    Don't know what the difference between the springs are, maybe slightly shorter to offset the additional lift??
    1 less coil and thicker wire on the 4.6 spring, the highly accurate hand squeeze test says the 4.6 springs are a lot stiffer
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    Since this thread isn't terribly old, I'll throw some additional info on here. I have the heads off of my 2002 X5 4.6is right now, so I thought I'd post some data.

    I haven't measured duration on the cams yet (which I intend to do), but I can tell you that both intake and exhaust cams have 10.5 mm of lift. I am going to throw my degree wheel on each camshaft and measure duration at the valve, both "advertised" (.006" lift) and at .050" lift. I'll use a light "checking" spring instead of an actual valve spring so that lifter "squish" isn't a factor. I'll edit this post when I have that info.

    FWIW, the valve springs are a beehive style, with 6-1/2 coils, closed and ground ends, .140" wire, 1.7" free length.

    I just thought I'd throw this info out there to add to the discussion. Having twisted wrenches professionally for 30 years, I have had a LOT of engines apart; both modern and otherwise. I have to say that this cylinder head design is among the coolest I've seen. Very, very impressive, racing inspired design!
    Last edited by MoonX5; 03-24-2019 at 11:33 AM.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1999 540i m View Post
    1 less coil and thicker wire on the 4.6 spring, the highly accurate hand squeeze test says the 4.6 springs are a lot stiffer
    IMG_1187.JPG
    This makes me think that "simply" slapping some 4.6 springs into my M62 with the turbo probably would have opened up some new possibilities. I was pretty sure that above about 16psi I was getting well into the range where I could benefit from some stiffer springs. On pretty much every other turbo install I've ever done (or basically anything I do with any engine), I start right off with some stiffer valve springs. But I wasn't aware that the 4.6 springs were an easy go-to like this.

    Not to mention that changing the springs on the M62 would be quite a bit more work than the about an hour job to swap them on the 5.3. Lol

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    Bump for underpants. More 4.6 trivia.

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    Thanks wagons and Jim.

    It turns out I had in fact already read this thread, and even commented lol.

    To keep everything in the same thread I'll add the basic b46 cam specs that I have;

    M60B40 cams: duration 246/242 deg, lift 9.7/9.4 mm.
    M62B44 cams: duration 236/228 deg, lift 9/9 mm.
    M62B46 cams: duration 249/249 deg, lift 10.5/10.5 mm.
    S62B50 cams: duration 252/248 deg, lift 10.3/10.2 mm.

    So, it still remains unknown how much the valve to piston clearance is on the b46, and therefore it is also unknown how much the compression can be raised via planing the heads.

  14. #114
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    geargrinder is offline Having No Trouble Here BMW CCA Member
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    My notes - an attemp to collect and reconcile multiple sources - more or less agree mostly with this except...

    Quote Originally Posted by underpants View Post
    M60B40 cams: duration 246/242 deg, lift 9.7/9.4 mm.
    M62B44 cams: duration 238/240 deg, lift 9/9 mm.
    M62TUB44 cams: duration 236/228 deg, lift 9/9 mm.
    M62B46 cams: duration 249/249 deg, lift 10.5/10.5 mm.
    S62B50 cams: duration 252/248 deg, lift 10.3/10.2 mm.
    Does that square with what you are saying (aka did you just forget to note the "TU"? Or do you actually think otherwise?)
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  15. #115
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    Yea, what you have posted sounds accurate.

    Here is my source for cam specs;
    http://mywikimotors.com/m62b44/

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  17. #117
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    Catching up late here... GREAT THREAD. I just bought an '01 740i M-Sport with 147,000 miles (I also have a Long with 306K miles). Indy says the timing chain guides are ticking and the upper TC covers are leaking -- not unexpected (my Long already had it done - of course). I told him I'd defer spending $4,000 for now (and do the TC's myself) because I have a Getrag in the garage waiting to go in and... thinking I'll bolt it and a new engine in together as a unit. I had this thread in mind:

    https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sh.../290730?page=1

    However, my Indy tells me the B46 isn't compatible with the B44 DME due to (IIRC) the VANOS. That, to me, explained the combo in the project -- B46 block with B44 heads. Ok. Then... I found this thread. I got lost along the way and am not sure if this combo is viable or what y'all would recommend.

    First, if the VANOS isn't really an issue, why not a straight up swap to a B46? Or... if the VANOS is an issue, use the B46 in its entirety with a B44 VANOS? Other internal refinements notwithstanding.

    But from this thread this sounds like the right combo unless, as y'all say, valve clearance becomes an problem:

    - B46 block
    - B44 heads -- although it was stated the B46's are [almost?] the same
    - B46 cams and springs (Are the B44 and B46 valves the same? From the thread it seemed they are. I can look that up.)
    - B44 VANOS (Is the B46 really different?)
    - B46 intake (Or other? What about the throttle?)
    - Explore the rest of the intake/exhaust -- which can happen later.

    It seems between my current B44 and a good B46 donor, I have all I need -- except I'm lacking a good engine builder (in Austin, TX). Which definitely isn't me (equipment, porting, balancing, etc). I know my limits.

    Looking forward to your thoughts.
    dp

    PS - I have a line on a 2003 540i M-Sport whose timing chain guides are d-o-n-e done. Otherwise in good shape. Could do the same for it.
    Last edited by dp44; 10-14-2019 at 11:19 PM.

  18. #118
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    Short answer the 4.6 is 100% plug and play in place of the 4.4tu, except for the x5 specific parts
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    Including VANOS? Was my Indy wrong?

    So we’re talking oil pan, valve covers, and other sundries? I assume all parts I could scavenge off of my B44.

    Hmmm... I might consider taking that leap.
    Last edited by dp44; 10-16-2019 at 02:27 PM.

  20. #120
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    If your e38 is m62tu it will work
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  21. #121
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    Beautiful! Thanx!

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by dp44 View Post
    Beautiful! Thanx!
    Old post but new member here asking myself how to solve the common curse of an ‘02 M62TU44 X5 that probably has one foot in the departure lounge and is leaking from every crevice. My first choice is to source a 4.6, refresh it and drop it in. Did you make this course of action work for your project DP44? Will I need the 4.6 DME too or will my 4.4 DME run a 4.6? I ask because I’ve got a line on a motor, but the DME from it has already been sold.

    background: bought the car new in 2002 and it was my wife’s daily driver for 13 years. Then it went to my kids who bombed around town, to work, etc in it but put very few miles on it. It’s at 150k and I’ve reinhereted it as a project car. I’m going overland style with it. I’ve thrown tons of deferred maintenance parts at it - mostly suspension and livability crap (ie. window clips for the umpteenth time, etc), put a small lift on it and it is now getting painted by a local hot rod shop. Roof and hood only (in Ford Lead Foot Gray) as they were shot but the sides are in pretty good shape. British racing green for the rest of the car some day perhaps. Axles, filters misc. hoses and a set of 31” ish Method Racing Wheels model 701s to go on when I get it back this week. Eventually I’ll incorporate a low key bumper bar fab up front and an integrated spare tire carrier in back (somehow), and then get to work rehabbing the interior.

    All of the above is simply forestalling an inevitable come to Jesus with the unicorn under the hood though, and that 4.6 mill sure seems nice.
    Last edited by Henn28; 06-26-2021 at 03:38 PM.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henn28 View Post
    Old post but new member here asking myself how to solve the common curse of an ‘02 M62TU4d X5 that probably has one foot in the departure lounge and is leaking from every crevice. My first choice is to source a 4.6, refresh it and drop it in. Did you make this course of action work for your project DP44? Will I need the 4.6 DME too or will my 4.4 DME run a 4.6? I ask because I’ve got a line on a motor, but the DME from it has already been sold.

    background: bought the car new in 2002 and it was my wife’s daily driver for 13 years. Then it went to my kids who bombed around town, to work, etc in it but put very few miles on it. It’s at 150k and I’ve reinhereted it as a project car. I’m going overland style with it. I’ve thrown tons of deferred maintenance parts at it - mostly suspension and livability crap (ie. window clips for the umpteenth time, etc), put a small lift on it and it is now getting painted by a local hot rod shop. Roof and hood only (in Ford Lead Foot Gray) as they were shot but the sides are in pretty good shape. British racing green for the rest of the car some day perhaps. Axles, filters misc. hoses and a set of 31” ish Method Racing Wheels model 701s to go on when I get it back this week. Eventually I’ll incorporate a low key bumper bar fab up front and an integrated spare tire carrier in back (somehow), and then get to work rehabbing the interior.

    All of the above is simply forestalling an inevitable come to Jesus with the unicorn under the hood though, and that 4.6 mill sure seems nice.
    Nice project! I did the opposite with mine, my 4.6 exploded so I put a 4.4 in it, no computer changes, it's been good for 20,000 miles so far.
    E85 fueled, Eaton m112 supercharged 4.5L M62TU, TTV racing flywheel, Spec stage 2+ clutch, 88c thermostat, eibach sway bars, wavetrac 3.15 lsd, m5 steering box, Quantum 340lph fuel pump, Dinan camber plates, some powerflex bushings, Supersprint headers, M5 cats, 2001 gas pedal upgrade and many other things done. all diy by me

  24. #124
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    That’s great to hear. Any surprises or gotcha’s during the swap?

    I’ll pull the lower oil pan to change that gasket in a couple weeks when when I’ll have the car on a lift and plan to look for plastic bits. Best case is there are none and I can put a new tensioner in and take my time finding a “new” motor for it. Worst case is that I’ll need to grab the first decent mill I find (likely a 4.4 I’m guessing) and get to work.

    what did you do to the 4.4 you installed? Any block work needed? I’m wondering if a hone and new rings are are better than trying really hard to find a motor with great compression and leak down numbers.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henn28 View Post
    That’s great to hear. Any surprises or gotcha’s during the swap?

    I’ll pull the lower oil pan to change that gasket in a couple weeks when when I’ll have the car on a lift and plan to look for plastic bits. Best case is there are none and I can put a new tensioner in and take my time finding a “new” motor for it. Worst case is that I’ll need to grab the first decent mill I find (likely a 4.4 I’m guessing) and get to work.

    what did you do to the 4.4 you installed? Any block work needed? I’m wondering if a hone and new rings are are better than trying really hard to find a motor with great compression and leak down numbers.
    M62s generally hold compression very well, and if you end up with one with bad ring seal, the odds are its going to take more than just a hone to properly fix. And then there's the issue of finding someone who can hone the alusil. IMO just finding one with good leakage numbers is probably your best bet.

    As for the DME, the 4.6 and 4.4 DMEs are identical - both are Bosch ME7s - in terms of hardware but have slightly different software, your life will be much easier if you just tweak the maps in the DME you already have rather than deal with swapping in a different DME and the associated EWS headaches.
    Last edited by MotorMouth93; 06-26-2021 at 11:22 PM.

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