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Thread: Camshaft upgrade on an M62tu?

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    Camshaft upgrade on an M62tu?

    I've modified a few of my BMW engines with Schrick camshaft upgrades, overall I've been pleased with the gains.
    Now that I have an M62tu my natural reaction is to look for camshaft upgrades...... in addition to the very limited bolt-on mods.

    Anyways, through a lot of Google searching, I for one cannot find anyone who even makes an off the shelf performance camshaft, and two, only a small handful of threads have ever been started on the topic.
    I would think someone has at least tried to attempt a camshaft upgrade, but I can't even find that = no one has proven that it is a worthless (bang for buck or power) mod.

    Is this because the motor is tweaked close to it's limits from the factory + that with Vanos, the factory can tweak & maximize the power available from the existing camshafts?
    Last edited by whiteghost1; 10-08-2013 at 11:36 PM. Reason: spelling error

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    I'm pretty sure that I've seen cams for the M62tu engine in the past.
    IIRC they were over $2K for all 4.
    Not worth it in my opinion.
    The last engine I really sank a bunch of $$$ into was my 300ZX. I sent the cams to Isky for a regrind, higher lift and more duration.
    As expected I lost torque down low, however it was still pulling strong at 7500 RPM.
    You would most likely see the same thing on the 540.

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    Ahh , the old good days of 300ZX, 3000 VR-4, RX-7 and MKIV Supras . Tell me about it .

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    Quote Originally Posted by supra94tt View Post
    Ahh , the old good days of 300ZX, 3000 VR-4, RX-7 and MKIV Supras . Tell me about it .
    Me and a buddy of mine are currently working on an AE86 Corolla (Hachi Roku). He's got the shell and is working on the interior. We've got two transmissions, a driveshaft, I believe a SR5 rear end, two 4AG-E engines one with the spray nozzles and a clean three angle cut cylinder head on it without the shims and one which is an old one with no spray nozzles. Yesterday he texted me saying that he found another AE86 or probably another engine he's going to pick up one.



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    I think if it was a stage 1 or 2 well engineered street grind, you would gain from idle to redline. I did with the Schrick's I've installed in my other Bimmers and I did not have to compromise, even with an archaic 2-valve slant six or V12.
    Go too wild and yes you will have a peaky engine that's a Royal PITA on the street.

    With the single Vanos on the M62tu I would presume that one would have more malleability and you could have streetable car that would idle smooth + pass emissions. Almost every other engine in the 90's->early 2000's of Munich's lineup has a reputable cam manufacturer that makes a grind. Literally the M62tu is one of the only engines which no one (Schrick, Dblias, Catcams, etc....) makes a grind for.

    This request might be a grind for someone like Paul Burke to fab for me/us.......

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    Paul Burke is the man. What's his info/contact number?



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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    I'm pretty sure that I've seen cams for the M62tu engine in the past.
    I've seen cams for the M60, M62, S62; M62tu = NADA

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    no bueno



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    Quote Originally Posted by auaq View Post
    Paul Burke is the man. What's his info/contact number?
    I have his phone number & email buried in some old communicaes, PM me as a reminder tomorrow and I can forward it to you if interested.

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    I have a handle on buying a set of cams from an Alpina B10 4.6, they are suppose to be a little more aggressive than the stock m62tu grind.
    The problem is that I cannot find any camshaft specs on them for the life of me - anyone reading this know the specs or of how I could find out the specs?

    Alpina is very tight lipped and will not divulgde that information to a non-Alpina owner; not even sure if they would provide that info even if I did own a Alpina B10 4.6.

    Also, does anyone know the valve->piston clearance specs on the M62tu engine?
    I'm wondering if there is much room with the stock pistons for a performance camshaft with an increased duration + lift?

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    check with vac motorsports , I know there are some people here that had them do other head work to the m62tu
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    No one makes a "better" cam because with VANOS there's no need for it. I have a 4.6 short block under the stock heads on my M62TU, and it's basically an Alpina clone. You don't even see noticeable gains with aftermarket exhausts. You may want to do some head porting but even that is a fairly big expense/hours of labor investment for the gains to be had, as the heads casting is VERY high tech, and having 4 valves per cyl improves things to a point where you could do more harm than good if you overdo or you haven't ported a lot of ancient heads. Exhaust is very good for a stock exhaust too, it even has a resonator for cutting off backpressure pulses (like the intake, they use the same principle). I used a large runners manifold later, and it "cleared up" the breathing above 4k rpm without much tq loss (mileage took a big dump on city driving, though) I still have to try a velocity stack one when I can, but I'm sure it will make zero difference in real world terms. I'd love to have the velocity stack runners, though.

    We're talking a motor that has a lot of power for the streetability and for the mileage it gets even when you can't keep your right foot from falling in love with the firewall.

    Let's face it, one "wants" "needs" more power, but driving around in a chattery shaky ride is a PITA. Even BMW went the turbo way when they wanted more power... I for one prefer NA engines, and bigger displacement. Nothing feels like a classy ride that turns into a road rocket when pushed.

    If I want more out of the car, eventually I'll either drop the juice box and couple a 6speed manual to a taller diff, remove top speed govnor, or if I want to keep the auto, see if a lower numerical rear end ratio causes the trans adaptations to learn to launch in 1st. or investigate into purchasing a tune for my transmission controller to do so. I don't think a juicy torquey engine like the M62TU should have a higher than 3:1 diff ratio...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jicaino View Post
    No one makes a "better" cam because with VANOS there's no need for it.
    VANOS only alters timing. Cams alter timing, lift, and duration.

    It could be argued that engines fitted with VANOS and Valvetronic wouldnt need cams, because Valvetronic alters lift and duration. But Valvetronic was never offered on an E39 engine.

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    I think you may want to rephrase your first line cause it can be a bit misleading. Vanos does alter the cam timing and that's all. The cams itself has a fixed lift and a fixed duration.



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    Quote Originally Posted by auaq View Post
    I think you may want to rephrase your first line cause it can be a bit misleading. Vanos does alter the cam timing and that's all. The cams itself has a fixed lift and a fixed duration.
    Valvetronic takes care of the height and duration. It's a nice little feature on the newer BMWs.
    -Chris

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    That is correct about Valvetronic but not Vanos.



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    Yes I know, but having a head that breathes thru 4 holes at each cylinder greatly reduces the impact of duration and lift, and puts valvetrain acceleration on a 3rd or 4th row as far as performance gains to be had. Intake charge would be limited by injectors size and intake duct (and here's the major performance gain to explore) and higer lift and or duration would be pretty irrelevant on a 4 valve per cyl engine (Scavenging happens to take out most of the exhaust gas anyway, duration and lift are not going to improve anything that the restrictions "clogs")

    So, I think that the way to go is remove all the restrictions in the exhaust (cats) leaving it otherwise intact, it's a very good exhaust to begin with, then work on the intake duct, maybe baffling the plenum a little, remove burrs and match the throttle body, then maybe think of purchasing a tune, or going standalone which is going to have some pros and many cons.

    Before you jump my throat, yes, I've built other engines, mainly slant sixes, putting out more than 200 whp. Reverted dual pattern erson cams, double valve springs, tripple webbers dcoe, or 6 mikunis, roller rockers, asymmetric head milling to get a good wedge on the cyl combustion chamber... not a guarantee that I know what I'm talking about here, but just giving you guys a background to evaluate my opinions on this matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by auaq View Post
    That is correct about Valvetronic but not Vanos.
    I feel what I said was clear and true?

    VANOS deals with timing
    Valvetronic deals with lift and duration
    Cams deal with all three (and changing cams changes those three variables)



    And jicaino, your observation may be true on lower-HP engines but we are talking significantly more than 200hp, where flow characteristics and all the variables of the cams play an important role in increased power delivery. The intakes of these cars are utilized on cars developing much more HP so I dont think its right to say that thats a major holdup power-wise. If one would want to alter the lift for higher HP development, one would need to replace the cams since VANOS can not alter lift.
    Last edited by BimmerBreaker; 03-17-2014 at 02:31 PM.

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    All of the big German tuners have upgraded the power of there 540i's with camshafts (in conjunction with other mods of course), which leads me to believe that there is power to be had. From my experience those tuners do not modify parts if they are more than sufficient from the factory. The big question here is at what cost, and what gain can be had for the time and effort involved. Almost all the people on this board are not willing to spend $3k to gain 20-30HP, because the value of the car is not there. Probably why there is virtually zero aftermarket options for those seeking N/A power increases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BimmerBreaker View Post
    I feel what I said was clear and true?

    VANOS deals with timing
    Valvetronic deals with lift and duration
    Cams deal with all three (and changing cams changes those three variables)

    Ah, nevermind. Upon reading your first quote just didn't sound right to me twice. Now that you've added that clears any misunderstanding. All good.



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    slightly better bang for the buck would be headers if it costs that much for cams.
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    True, been there done that. I've already gained my 20-30 Horsepower via SS headers along with every other bolt on m62tu mod available.

    If you are one of the few nut bars like me that want to continue with internal mods, even after realizing the very high $$$ to HP ratio, then you will want to continue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BimmerBreaker View Post
    And jicaino, your observation may be true on lower-HP engines but we are talking significantly more than 200hp, where flow characteristics and all the variables of the cams play an important role in increased power delivery. The intakes of these cars are utilized on cars developing much more HP so I dont think its right to say that thats a major holdup power-wise. If one would want to alter the lift for higher HP development, one would need to replace the cams since VANOS can not alter lift.
    I see why you may not agree, but I didn't say "it's not important". I said that it's not as relevant since we're talking a modern head, with 4 valves that are perfectly proportioned and good combustion chambers. As far as intake goes, my point is that a lot more cam and yes, you're going to be restricted by the intake arrangement. If the intake would be so overproportioned, the S62 would have used the same arrangement... there's not much difference in HP ratings between them, and the span in displacement over which those intakes were used (the plenum, single throttle intakes) is huge. From 3L to 4.8L (the earlier V8 having a flimsy tq curve due to intake runners cross section being grossly miscalculated, or if you will, overcalculated for an engine they know in which direction they'll be taking)

    Now regarding lift, this is how it works: if the height (lift) of the valve head is 29% of the valve diameter, then you can't increase flow lifting above that point. That is, lift on a cam has nothing to do with flow once you're over 29%. It has to do with valvetrain acceleration.

    Why do you think Alpina is so tight lipped about the 4.6 ? because is the same cams! otherwise they will be selling them. Or at least an exhaust upgrade since they don't have to deal with vanos there. No. They just don't share information on cams... They're willing to sell other things, I don't see why they wouldn't sell cams, unless there's no difference in cams.

    Quote Originally Posted by whiteghost1 View Post
    All of the big German tuners have upgraded the power of there 540i's with camshafts (in conjunction with other mods of course), which leads me to believe that there is power to be had. From my experience those tuners do not modify parts if they are more than sufficient from the factory. The big question here is at what cost, and what gain can be had for the time and effort involved. Almost all the people on this board are not willing to spend $3k to gain 20-30HP, because the value of the car is not there. Probably why there is virtually zero aftermarket options for those seeking N/A power increases.
    The M62 yes, there's good aftermarket cams. The M62TU not. I find funny and funny (both meanings) that when they changed the M62 they kept the same power output rating but TQ increased. Also, I think they underrated the M62TU to be competitive in claims with the M5. If you go to actual figures, a M5 isn't that faster, it's not representing those allegedly 25% extra HP in a good way. If we look at M62b44, M62b44TU and S62 claimed figures: (sorry for the wiki copy and paste, I double checked tho)
    Power Torque 0–100 km/h Years
    540i 210 kW (286 PS; 282 bhp) @ 5400 440 N·m (320 ft·lbf) @ 3600 6.0/6.3 (MT/AT) up to 9/98
    540i 217 kW (295 PS; 291 bhp) @ 5400 460 N·m (340 ft·lbf) @ 3600 5.4/5.6 (MT/AT) 9/98 - 2003
    M5 294 kW (400 PS; 394 bhp) @ 6600 500 N·m (370 ft·lbf) @ 3800 4.8 (MT) 9/98 –2003
    I honestly don't think that a car making +100hp plus can't shave but half a second in the 0-60mph (0-100km/h) time. So either the M5 is overrated, or the 540i is underrated, power and performance wise. I'd have to say I don't think that given the same transmission, same rear end ratio, and all other factors being the same, a M5 would seriously kick 540i butt on off the line launchs with limited distance racing. The S62 revs and breaths a lot more so once you got the car rolling, and on a long circuit or a good highway, yes, I could see a difference there. Sorry to the M5 fanatics. It's weird and too much of a coincidence than a major revision in the intake cam department is rated at no HP gain when adding another family member, trying to position it at alpha dog, which costs a lot more, isn't it? This is the first M5 that's not hand assembled, engine or body is from a production line. I don't buy into the separation they deliberatedly create between 540i and M5, BMW has done the same in the past, underrate the cheaper car to boost sales on the "better, faster" deliberatedly creating a gap in figures to "help" (more like sway!) prospective buyers leaning that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by topaz540i View Post
    slightly better bang for the buck would be headers if it costs that much for cams.
    So this is what I think. What's the big difference between M62TU and S62? Cams vanos on Ex, Intake and breathing, less restrictive exhaust, and displacement.
    I do believe headers would make a lot more difference than cams, then CAT deleteing or increasing ex flow, then displacement, then intake mods (larger runners, less plenum volume, remove burs, port the throttle body, then tunes and ultimately, going standalone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by whiteghost1 View Post
    True, been there done that. I've already gained my 20-30 Horsepower via SS headers along with every other bolt on m62tu mod available.

    If you are one of the few nut bars like me that want to continue with internal mods, even after realizing the very high $$$ to HP ratio, then you will want to continue.
    This is my next step. I already have a 4.6 shortblock, minor heads cleanup, large runner intake, cat delete, 3.15 diff. And then, purchase a tune or a galleto and brick, burn and ruin it myself

    What headers are you running? Did you install them yourself?
    Last edited by jicaino; 03-17-2014 at 08:17 PM.

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    did you do the m60 intake manifold? it lets the top end breathe a lot better and its fairly cheap ~$100 or so on ebay. great excuse to dig into the valley pan and do all new port gaskets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by topaz540i View Post
    did you do the m60 intake manifold? it lets the top end breathe a lot better and its fairly cheap ~$100 or so on ebay. great excuse to dig into the valley pan and do all new port gaskets.
    I used the M62B46 intake.

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