E46 ABS into E36 - details wanted

[Murph]

Alright, I know many have done this. I've searched the threads and found very little along the lines of what specifically needs to be done. I have received some guidance (which I am very thankful for), however I would really appreciate a bit more info:

Which system? Teves MK 20, Teves MK 20 EI DSC III, or Teves MK 60 DSC III

Inputs? The DSC systems have a steering angle sensor, a yaw sensor, and a lateral accelerator sensor. Assuming the answer to the question above is either of the DSC systems, are each of these needed for ABS functionality, or are they only needed for DSC traction control (which is n/a for my app)?

Precharge pump? As this appears to apply to the MK 20 DSC only, I believe the answer to the first question will also answer this question.

Wiring? I'm sure this is the most challenging part of the conversion. Please. What specifically do i need from an E46 chassis harness to connect the E46 control module / hydraulic unit, sensors, etc into an E36? From what I've heard it's actually rather simple. However I would rather start with guidance from someone who's done this already than try to figure it out myself (you know, work smarter not harder and all that).

Also wiring related, does the control module need to connect to the ECU for ABS to work?

Why am I looking to convert? I've been having random ABS failures for the last 4-5 weekends (ABS works one corner and then it's gone the next), and rather than throw $$ into trying to find the cure I would rather spend a bit more and upgrade to what I've been told is a superior system from the E46. The car is a 1997 E36 with the later 4 channel ABS.

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide!

[boyracer]

This is relevant to my interest.

How much better and in what way E46 M3 ABS is compared to 3 channel E36 ABS?

I'm looking to convert my E36 to pedal box over the winter and move ABS unit to back of the car, for that trouble I could upgrade to better ABS control system, hence my interest.

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Here is pretty in depth info about Mk 20 and Mk 60:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...n+car%3F&mid=0

To include to your list, you need two brake line pressure sensors for rear and front systems that connect right after master cylinders. They seem to be same for most (all?) E46's so you can buy any used master cylinder that has them for 30€ so you don't have to get them from dealer for ~100€ per piece.

Any idea how well newer Hall sensors fit to E36 hubs that use older VR sensors? I think this conversion is a must.

Here is photo of Boxster with Mk60 ABS, you can see brake line pressure sensors clearly.

6E803B15-8818-45B1-A8F9-08A547A3A3E8-1825-0000017F785BAB5F.jpg

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Commercial Mk60 harness: http://www.k-m-p.nl/files/575jygyvj

Gives good idea what sensors are needed.

[gobuffs]

Mk60 ONLY. You don't want the mk20. I have been told you need the yaw sensor but I am not so sure if you aren't doing traction control (I have one I was going to do traction control in the Pectel but I sold the Pectel). You'll need wiring to the wheel speed sensors, 2 brake pressure sensors, brake switch (just on/off). You can wire in a kill switch that will turn off ABS functionality but will preserve wheel speed being sent to data acq. You can wire in the CAN but it probably won't get you any info (I tried and haven't seen any data).

[Z3racer701]

There is one e-36 that came from the factory with mk-60 ABS, and it's not an m anything, it was the regular '02 Z3. If there are a set of hall sensors that'll fit the e-36 front hub, these would be the ones. The rear sensors would work in an e-30, but I'm not sure about the regular z-link rear on a sedan.

[Murph]

Good question on the wheel speed sensors - one of many open items.

Also does anyone know if the e46 master bolts up to the e36 servo or does the servo need to be changed over as well?

I may just need to find an e46 wire harness and see what plugs where.

[dradernh]

Neel Vasaveda at Apex Speed Technology in LA can answer any questions you have; they've converted the Mk60 to many different cars: http://www.apexspeedtech.com. They can also provide you with any pieces you don't want to source or build yourself. No affiliation.

[TC Design]

We can as well, we have the system on our GTS-3 car and have done quite a few other cars as well using either tilton pedal assembly or the stock brake booster/master/pedal box.

-Tony

[capp07]

I did it last winter. E46 wheel speed sensors, epic harness and mk60 pump. I relocated the pump to the passenger foot well.

[boyracer]

So people have done it already and must have some experience about it, what is gained by going later ABS? No ice mode, shorted stopping distances etc?

[herrubermensch]

I did it last winter. E46 wheel speed sensors, epic harness and mk60 pump. I relocated the pump to the passenger foot well.

What are you using to bleed the ABS unit? I'm in the process of building my ABS harness, and apparently, the diagnostic cable and software necessary for bleeding the ABS unit is uber-expensive and impossible to find. Is there another way?

--Peter

[ScotcH]

What are you using to bleed the ABS unit? I'm in the process of building my ABS harness, and apparently, the diagnostic cable and software necessary for bleeding the ABS unit is uber-expensive and impossible to find. Is there another way?

--Peter

If you think ebay and $30 are hard to find and uber expensive, then yes.

[herrubermensch]

If you think ebay and $30 are hard to find and uber expensive, then yes.

Ok, I'm just going on what Neel Vasavada at Apex Speed is telling me. A GT1 apparently does not work. If you have a cable and program on eBay that works, please let me know which one. Thanks.

--Peter

[gobuffs]

Inpa

[herrubermensch]

Inpa

Well that I already have, but I did not think INPA worked without the stock ECU. Did you just wire up an OBDII port to the ABS module and plug the INPA cord into that? And that worked?

--Peter

[gobuffs]

Yes, just that easy. But you are talking the ABS brain not the ECU.

[herrubermensch]

Yes, just that easy. But you are talking the ABS brain not the ECU.

That is great, thank you! My final question is what pins of the OBDII connector did you use? There are only three wires emanating from the standard standalone harness, and I have no idea which pins in the OBDII connector they should occupy (nor does Neel, BTW).

[gobuffs]

Pin 2 is signal. Pins 4 and/or 5 is ground. Pin 16 is +12v.

[herrubermensch]

Pin 2 is signal. Pins 4 and/or 5 is ground. Pin 16 is +12v.

You absolutely rock! Thanks so much.

--Peter

[ScotcH]

I'm thinking of doing this in my e46 race car, even if it's just to save the damn tires. I'm not sure it'll be any faster (I'm pretty good at threshold braking), but in a panic dive into a corner, sometimes the tires take the brunt What system was in the 2004 330i ZHP (I have a parts car)? I know nothing about the e46 systems as we've never used them. Do they come on later than the e36 3 channel? Has ANYONE figured out a way to reprogram the threshold on these units? Any info would be great!

[GGray]

correct no ice mode and the 4 channel ABS is far superior to three channel under braking and turn in if it kicks in.

I am putting in on the E30M3.S54 turbo track/race car.

[gobuffs]

I'm thinking of doing this in my e46 race car, even if it's just to save the damn tires. I'm not sure it'll be any faster (I'm pretty good at threshold braking), but in a panic dive into a corner, sometimes the tires take the brunt What system was in the 2004 330i ZHP (I have a parts car)? I know nothing about the e46 systems as we've never used them. Do they come on later than the e36 3 channel? Has ANYONE figured out a way to reprogram the threshold on these units? Any info would be great!

Don't know what ABS system the 330 has. I doubt it is the Mk60 system we have been talking about. I have heard people say they know people that can reprogram the units, however the questions is what program to put on it? I have yet to find a ABS system that is claimed to be a Motorsports control unit that has different software than the CSL/ZCP units. I'd like to be proved wrong, but the motorsports control units are not easy to find and get them read.

[herrubermensch]

Don't know what ABS system the 330 has. I doubt it is the Mk60 system we have been talking about. I have heard people say they know people that can reprogram the units, however the questions is what program to put on it? I have yet to find a ABS system that is claimed to be a Motorsports control unit that has different software than the CSL/ZCP units. I'd like to be proved wrong, but the motorsports control units are not easy to find and get them read.

Interesting. Turner used to sell Motorsports MK60 ABS modules (new and used) and CSL MK60 ABS modules, but stopped doing so. My understanding from Neel Vasavada is that GT cars are now using Bosch M4 systems (the $10k version with eleven different user adjustable settings), and use of the MK60 is dwindling, making a true Motorsports version of it increasingly harder to find. At my skill level, I can't justify much of anything, and certainly not a $10k ABS unit.

--Peter

[ScotcH]

Perhaps (and I'm totally making this up on the spot) the pressure sensor outputs could be manipulated so that the ABS "thinks" you're not pushing the pedal as hard as you are, and delay the ABS activation? Basically I almost never want the ABS to come on ... except in a real panic stop ... wishful thinking? I like my brakes to be like anchors. When I hit the pedal, I hit is hard, then modulate as the car slows down. Don't want the ABS to come on right as I hit the brakes.

[gobuffs]

I know that Turner advertised it, but still can't find one that said it was and it actually was. I read one that was from a Kinetic WC car (I think). The only difference over a stock unit was the VIN listed was only "WBS" not a full 17 digit VIN like other units.

The Mk60 ABS is really not very intrusive. I'll bet you aren't as good a braker as you think you are, but yes, it is VERY nice to keep you from flat spotting tires. In my case, it gives me more confidence in the braking zone therefore better braking, lower lap times.

[boyracer]

What a coincidence. I checked out E46 330i ABS system yesterday evening when me and friends were talking about our cars and kicking tyres.

My 01/11 E46 M3 has Mk20 (six pipes from same side) and friends 330i has Mk60 (four pipes on same side). I don't know what model year his car was but it was def equipped with Mk60 that was located under master brake cylinder. M3 has ABS unit in space in right corner rear corner of engine bay.

Mk60 was used in many different cars, including AWD and FWD but I would think they have different parameters from factory that will not suit RWD race car very well. Not sure how different 330i and M3 programming is and there seems to be very little difference in price (~50€ in used ones in EU).