The HSVTurbo $1000 challenge, the T72 turbo & piggy back ride. Phase II

[Colby Colbs]

Hehe that's funny. Sounds like you need a bigger waste gate and hole in manifold. Priority location is key.

[bry195]

with the stock ccv pipe on the stock obd2 valve cover open to atmosphere I saw anywhere from 1 to 3.5 psi in the crank case. this was on a boost from 8 to 15. not sure if that is normal but supposedly my motor was driven by a little old lady from pasadena very gently for 70k.

[hsvturbo]

Hehe that's funny. Sounds like you need a bigger waste gate and hole in manifold. Priority location is key.

I'm thinking the same thing about WG. Bigger and better is what I need. Actually, next time I pull the manifold off, I may rework the front WG runner some.

with the stock ccv pipe on the stock obd2 valve cover open to atmosphere I saw anywhere from 1 to 3.5 psi in the crank case. this was on a boost from 8 to 15. not sure if that is normal but supposedly my motor was driven by a little old lady from pasadena very gently for 70k.

that seems high. I should check mine CC pressure too, maybe this weekend....


The above is what I am seeing boost wise as well as exhaust pressure. The pressure tap for the exhaust is about 3" from the waste gate. My WG pipe is about 15" OAL. So in reality I'm just measuring WG pressure.

Other tidd butts when I logged the pull: outside temp = 37-degrees f, third gear pull, 5# wg spring, 100% methanol up to 6 1/2 psi then a little gasoline injection pre throttle body.

[bry195]

I'm thinking the same thing about WG. Bigger and better is what I need. Actually, next time I pull the manifold off, I may rework the front WG runner some. that seems high. I should check mine CC pressure too, maybe this weekend.... The above is what I am seeing boost wise as well as exhaust pressure. The pressure tap for the exhaust is about 3" from the waste gate. My WG pipe is about 15" OAL. So in reality I'm just measuring WG pressure. Other tidd butts when I logged the pull: outside temp = 37-degrees f, third gear pull, 5# wg spring, 100% methanol up to 6 1/2 psi then a little gasoline injection pre throttle body.

I was thinking it was high too. I know that somewhere around 2.5 in the crank case I start blowing oil. I know the oem cyclone separator will not allow the intake to pull more than 10 inches of water column at sea level before it snaps closed and waits for more crank pressure.

[eraser87]

I guess it is hard to keep your boost at low levels because your huge turbo is almost no restriction at about 5psi. So if the gasses can go through the exhaust wheel and exhaust without any resistance, they will be hard to redirect. Bigger wastegate could help to some point but the main problem (imo), is that the exhaust side of the turbo is too big (at least for running low boost levels).

[Colby Colbs]

Low boost systems should have properly sized turbo. Flow path between turbine discharge and wg cross section needs to be consideted. Unfortunately I have not seen a formula to calculate so ready world experience is all I got. This is why restriction in the exhaust, post turbo, will help build pressure against the cross section of the turbine wheel. In that scenario it will be easy to control boost as the wg becomes the route of least resistance. Un cork the exhaust and you may get run away on a less than ideal setup. I will add this chassis makes anything ideal hard.

[hsvturbo]

I agree guys. When I first started looking at the WG routing on my manifold, I contemplated not attaching the front bank to the WG. The reason I was thinking this was after looking at my HX35 internal WG turbo where it only dumps exhaust on the back side, I thought I could get away with it. However, I never ran the HX35 at less then 24 psi on my 1.8 L.

Obviously I didn't go down this rout, and I could of routed the front bank a lot better on my first manifold. It jets off the main pipe at a 90-deg then has a nother 90-deg turn before it transitions into the larger pipe. Again, it's not a big issue for me now that I have additional fuel for this creep. In fact, for those that have ran a few pounds of boost creep, it feels quit good revving it up to redline.

Specs on the turbo are:
72.4 / 102.9 mm compressor
79.0 / 68.4 mm hot side with a .84 AR.

The bad side to running an eBay turbo, is the inability to view a compressor map on it. I wonder how far it is from a true T72.

[highboostingm3]

I agree guys. When I first started looking at the WG routing on my manifold, I contemplated not attaching the front bank to the WG. The reason I was thinking this was after looking at my HX35 internal WG turbo where it only dumps exhaust on the back side, I thought I could get away with it. However, I never ran the HX35 at less then 24 psi on my 1.8 L.

Obviously I didn't go down this rout, and I could of routed the front bank a lot better on my first manifold. It jets off the main pipe at a 90-deg then has a nother 90-deg turn before it transitions into the larger pipe. Again, it's not a big issue for me now that I have additional fuel for this creep. In fact, for those that have ran a few pounds of boost creep, it feels quit good revving it up to redline.

Specs on the turbo are:
72.4 / 102.9 mm compressor
79.0 / 68.4 mm hot side with a .84 AR.

The bad side to running an eBay turbo, is the inability to view a compressor map on it. I wonder how far it is from a true T72.

Remember when I posted below and then you followed up with the next post I quoted all bent?

I know exactly what is confusing you.

He has the correct runners for each side scroll 1-3 for one side and 4-6 for the other side.

What is confusing you is that you are used to seeing an equal 3-1 collector before one side of the turbine flange and then an equal 3-1 collector before the other side of the turbine flange. (From the front of the engine to the rear) He has runner 1 going into runner 2 then going into runner 3 so those start out looking more like a log manifold and do not have an equal 3-1 collector for all 3 runners.

Also, runner 4 goes into runner 5 and then into runner 6 before the other side of the turbine flange and do not have an equal 3-1 collector for all 3 runners.

It still technically should be effective, just not as effective as an equal 3-1 collector into a larger single runner on each side of the turbine flange.

He still has the wastegate dump coming from the last runner (on each side of turbine flange) just before the turbine flange for good boost control (albeit a 90- degree angle which is not as ideal but still will work pretty good I think).

Augh, a log manifold lol. So let's just call this simple design which is easy to install on the e36 a "log like manifold". I do disagree with how you indicated that the " runner 1 going into runner 2 then going into runner 3" statement. To me the number 1 runner goes into the larger secondary tube in which the exhaust gasses pass the number 2 & 3 primary runners, which are at a 120-150 degree angle. Since the # 2&3 exhaust valves are closed during the #1 exhaust cycle, I am presuming these two extra openings have little effect to the exhaust pulse to the turbine.

The reason why I like this design approach is due to some CFD analysis I've conducted at work. What I have seen in steady state flow rate CFD's, is when a fluid or gas goes from a small to a large, back to a small cross sectional area, the result is a pressure hit on the fluid. I equate this to the three into one design you mention. So with my simple "log like manifold" I have a gradual increase in section width going into the turbine. Obviously an exhaust pulse is not a steady state flow and many, if not all high end racing sports have the three equal length into one design for manifolds, so these designs must be better, they just must be right?

Anyway, I think you may have placed some pressure on some folks that build and sell the higher end manifolds on this forum. I mean, I ran 91 mph in the 1/8 mile two weeks after I got my car back on the road from a 4'ish week turbo system install, bear in mind this included building the manifold too. Also remember this was at 7 to 7-1/2 psi on an eBay turbo. Once I get my lack of fuel issue fixed, and turn the boost up to 11 - 12 psi, I may have one of the faster stock bottom end M3 at this boost level on the board, not that this is a competition or anything like that. BTW, 12 psi should put me at 460-ish whp from my calcs.

Hey, I'm willing to learn, so please instruct me on what I am missing or over looking as I have only been in the turbo game for 3-years.

As for the waste gate angle, this will be fixed in the next one I build. Thanks for your input.

[hsvturbo]

Remember when I posted below and then you followed up with the next post I quoted all bent?

I remember.

[hsvturbo]

Just to clear any confusion, I am still running my first black carbon steel manifold and not the new stainless one.

You can see how I improved the front WG piping on the SST version.... Maybe this summer we will see if the stainless one has creep.

with the stock ccv pipe on the stock obd2 valve cover open to atmosphere I saw anywhere from 1 to 3.5 psi in the crank case. this was on a boost from 8 to 15. not sure if that is normal but supposedly my motor was driven by a little old lady from pasadena very gently for 70k.

I checkEd my Crank case pressure this morning At 9 psi boost I am reading 1/3 psi give or take. The only mod I did on the CCV is drill out the hole to 1/2" and attached a 5/8" hose to a catch can. Warning to the FI crowd, don't buy an engine driven by granny.

[bry195]

lol, good point.

[operationcougar]

My granny got me too, valves meet piston kinda thing.

[hsvturbo]

My granny got me too, valves meet piston kinda thing.

That sucks. I always laugh when the classified add remarks the car was driven by them old ladies. At least with my car, I know it has 160,500 hard miles. I don't plan to ease up on it either lol.

[operationcougar]

By no means did I believe that a granny drove the car, the stereo and subs were for sale in the same add. But at least I got a good trans and bottom end (as far as I can currently tell. )

[hsvturbo]

Finally finished my exhaust, and boy, why did it take me so long. Adding a muffler to the WG dump tube is a no brainer, and soooooooo much quieter, I love it. It's like a new car, again, still slow, but it's so nice to be able to hear the 72mm spool up. Fun times are ahead!

[hsvturbo]

So I was messing around the other day, taking some video's of the car and thought this was interesting.

[hsvturbo]

I decided to buy in bulk. Works out to be about 60 cent per gallon less then 87 pump gas.

[Robocop]

Is the tire getting skinny like a street bike tire?

[hsvturbo]

Is the tire getting skinny like a street bike tire?

I may be wrong but what I see is the leading edge of the tire flattening inward toward the wheel.

[E36 HateR]

What tire are you running out back?

[hsvturbo]

What tire are you running out back?

Kumho Ecsta SPT 235/45 zr17

[bry195]

You know the nice thing about those tires is that they are pretty quiet whil spinning! Lol

[hsvturbo]

You know the nice thing about those tires is that they are pretty quiet whil spinning! Lol

Haha, yea, I don't seem to have a problem with traction like all Y'all do. I don't know if that is a good thing or bad.

[hsvturbo]

So I went to the strip last night and made one pass before she broke sitting in the pits.


More on the broke later on, as I've been dressing her up a little by adding a two stage direct port methanol system.


I also installed a second walbro on my methanol fuel system.

Added an ACT 6-puck unsprung clutch. Grabby to say the least.

I also added a resistor to the yellow wire on the HFM and installed some 24# ford injectors in place of my stock 17.5# injectors, (note, I'm not sure if stock S50 injectors are 17.5, but it really doesn't matter to me at this point lol). The reason for this was to eliminate the CEL under boost. Previously, the CEL would come on at 5200rpm under boost, a mass flow error. Now with the larger injectors and resistor, my DC is reduced so now I can run 40 to 45 psi on the methanol side instead of my prior 30-ish. Any who, I believe I have much more control of fuel delivery under boost.



The above shows the modification to my intake to add the 52# injectors, thus making M&M a dual fuel car. Pump gas for daily driving, then flip a switch for 100% methanol boost action.

So with the above updates, I removed the 5# WG spring and installed the 10# spring and went to the races to do some much needed fuel tuning. AFR under boost are in the 10's, but she runs well even being this rich, (gauge reads lambda 1 @14.7 gasoline).

First hit of the night, I run the 96 mph, dismal time, but fast, which is really what I was looking for as my number 1 goal for that night was not to break, besides not hurting anybody. So I pull back to the pits after weighing her, talking to the Z owner with our hoods up, cooling the motors down. He asked me where my intake was and I'm pointing down to where it is when POP, fizzzz.

I can't believe it, my expansion tank blew, right there an then.

Fortunately, nobody got burned. Fortunately it didn't break on the track. And fortunately, I was able to tape up the tank And drive it home running on methanol, heater blowing full blast.

[wtfmarine]

So I went to the strip last night and made one pass before she broke sitting in the pits. More on the broke later on, as I've been dressing her up a little by adding a two stage direct port methanol system. I also installed a second walbro on my methanol fuel system. Added an ACT 6-puck unsprung clutch. Grabby to say the least. I also added a resistor to the yellow wire on the HFM and installed some 24# ford injectors in place of my stock 17.5# injectors, (note, I'm not sure if stock S50 injectors are 17.5, but it really doesn't matter to me at this point lol). The reason for this was to eliminate the CEL under boost. Previously, the CEL would come on at 5200rpm under boost, a mass flow error. Now with the larger injectors and resistor, my DC is reduced so now I can run 40 to 45 psi on the methanol side instead of my prior 30-ish. Any who, I believe I have much more control of fuel delivery under boost. The above shows the modification to my intake to add the 52# injectors, thus making M&M a dual fuel car. Pump gas for daily driving, then flip a switch for 100% methanol boost action. So with the above updates, I removed the 5# WG spring and installed the 10# spring and went to the races to do some much needed fuel tuning. AFR under boost are in the 10's, but she runs well even being this rich, (gauge reads lambda 1 @14.7 gasoline). First hit of the night, I run the 96 mph, dismal time, but fast, which is really what I was looking for as my number 1 goal for that night was not to break, besides not hurting anybody. So I pull back to the pits after weighing her, talking to the Z owner with our hoods up, cooling the motors down. He asked me where my intake was and I'm pointing down to where it is when POP, fizzzz. I can't believe it, my expansion tank blew, right there an then. Fortunately, nobody got burned. Fortunately it didn't break on the track. And fortunately, I was able to tape up the tank And drive it home running on methanol, heater blowing full blast.

What's with clean look? No more dirty engineering? Lol. Nice trap speed! You've got a roll race monster now. It must be something special going on this week because I developed a crack in my gas tank. It's fun driving around spraying gas all over a hot exhaust pipe. In no way is that dangerous lol.