Another Power Top Failure: Flashing Red & Orange Lights

[BimmerM3inGA]

No joke, I paid off my '03 Z4 3.0i (96K miles) today. Literally, I called the bank and made the payment over the phone. I wanted to take a celebratory cruise with the top down, but when I hit the button, nothing happened. Well, except for the both of the lights blinking (red and orange). They are blinking together and even with the ignition off, they keep blinking.

I did a bunch of searching, but didn't find any reference to both lights flashing. I found plenty of references to one or the other, but not both.

I checked the luggage shelf in the trunk to make sure it was lowered, but beyond that, I don't know what else to look at. This car (up until now) has been very reliable and I really haven't had to fix anything on it. So I'm not as familiar with its guts like I am with my E36 M3 and E39 528iT.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[BimmerBreaker]

Check the microswitch in the trunk. Its on the back wall inside the trunk, you can remove the shelf in the trunk (its only held on with 4 clips on either side, pop them off by hand then slide it out) to get access to it. Unscrew the two torx screws holding it on, unplug the harness, and jump it with a short length of wire then try the top again.

Not popping from the frame, to my knowledge, is the microswitch. If its a bad motor it will pop from the frame but then will not retract further.

[BimmerM3inGA]

I'll check the switch this evening when the missus gets home from work. There is no reaction from the top when the button is pressed. The header does not unlatch and the windows don't roll down. Based on my research so far, that makes me think the problem is not the motor. If the motor were the problem, the header would still unlatch.

If the microswitch checks out, what else should I be looking for? I've seen a couple of posts referencing the control module for the top. Where is that located and can it be swapped out with minimal pain?

[BimmerBreaker]

Yes, I believe you are correct in that your symptoms would indicate a microswitch is bad not the motor.

The control module is in the trim behind the driver's seat... very easy to gain access. Basically look up the "Convertible top removal DIY" or motor replacement DIY by shipkiller, follow just the first few steps to remove the trim panel right behind the driver's seat. You should only need to remove some trim pieces by the convertible top, the rubber door seal, then unscrew the trim on that side after popping off the subwoofer grill and on top, then you can peel the trim back a little bit and the control module is a white box held on with one 10 or 13mm nut (I dont recall, I actually lost my nut putting it back together and now mine is held on with velcro)

[BimmerM3inGA]

Thanks, BimmerBreaker. I'll report what I find after I have another chance to look at the car.

If the module is the problem, does a replacement need to be coded? Or is it plug and play?

[Shipkiller]

There is a quick way to tell if the rear microswitch is working or not.

If the top is closed (up), pull the emergency release and manually open the top. Once the top is open, push the closed button but make sure you reset the emergency release. If the top now closes, its the rear microswitch. If it does not, it is something else.

Sometimes, when the motor fails, it just does not move the top at all and makes NO noise. Its DEAD. Nothing moves....

Also, I can count on one hand how many softtop modules have failed in the last five years with the close to 75 emails chains I have had to respond to over failed softtops. I am not saying that the module is not faulty but the chances are very remote.
The best way to tell if the module is bad is find someone with the appropriate software and read the diagnostic codes or if the module communicates at all with the car. Another long shot is if you have access to another module for testing.
I would hate to have you spend $250 for a new module (P/N: 61357199997) and it still not work, leading to the motor. Oh, the softtop module does not have to be coded.
The plastic nut part number is: 16131176747. Price $.53

[BimmerM3inGA]

Hi ShipKiller (awesome name, by the way) and thanks for chiming in. I've read your DIYs and definitely appreciate the work you put into them!

The problem is definitely not the microswitch in the trunk.

I disconnected the battery for about 30 minutes, and while it was disconnected I removed and tested the micro switch. I used a multimeter to check it, and it's working fine. To be thorough, I hotwired the connector in the trunk and reconnected the battery. Same thing: Two blinking lights next to the buttons on the console and no response from the top. I put the switch back in and there was no change.

I have a copy of INPA and tried to check the control module for the top. I kept getting a communication error with the module. While that's an interesting result, I would not consider it to be conclusive. It's not the first time INPA has failed to communicate with a module (even when it's known to be good). But it does support the theory that I'm dealing with a bad control module.

I also used a snake camera to look at the motor to see if there was any obvious water damage. It was hard to get a good look, but it looked dry and I didn't see any evidence of prior water damage.

So, the problem is most likely NOT the motor, and the switch checks out. What does that leave? The control module, for one. Could it be anything else? The console switch? Another sensor or switch? I used to have an E36 convertible and it had something like a half dozen microswitches and a failure of any one of them would kill the top. I'm running out of ideas!

[Shipkiller]

On my INPA, I can always talk to that module, so now that you have provided more information, it just might be the module, its starting to point in that direction. It is just very uncommon...but since your car is almost 10 years old, not inconceivable.

Not counting the rear switch, there are four hall effect switches on the top. Two are on the frame next to the motor. To get them you have to pull the top... The other two are on the front of the top near the unlocking motor.
http://www.shipkiller.com/Softtop_Electrical.html


Also, the motor is housed in a plastic 'Sound Insulation' (read: motor housing) so you really cannot see the actual motor. The housing is not water proof so water gets in. Inside the motorhousing, is a foam material to help deaden the sound the motor makes. Once water gets in, it stays.... so eventually the motor goes bad.

[BimmerBreaker]

Yeah, using the snake camera wont help you... you would have seen something roughly like my relatively clean exterior motor housing pictured below. Dusty, sure, but really no signs of water damage as far as I could tell



However, once inside...



My best advice to you is to do whatever Shipkiller tells you to do

[BimmerM3inGA]

BimmerBreaker: That is NAS-TEE!! I figured the camera was a long shot, but worth trying. I mean, if I could see a puddle of water I'd know I have a problem there.

Unless there's something else I can try, it's looking like a new module is in my future. At least it's cheaper than the motor and easier to replace. Thanks, ShipKiller for the part numbers!

[Shipkiller]

RealOEM is your friend.

When I had to rebuild the left side of my car from a track indecent, I spent may hours on RealOEM and in the TIS (which sometimes is worthless) and lots of research.

[BimmerM3inGA]

I ordered a new control module. $222.48 from mybimmerparts dot com. I really hope this does the trick!

[BimmerM3inGA]

UPDATE:

I installed a new OEM module and still have zero top function. All that's changed is that now the lights on the center console between the buttons are no longer flashing. But there is no reaction whatsoever from the top when either button is pressed. I even tried lowering the top manually and then tried to raise it under power. Still nuthin'.

I pulled and double checked all the applicable fuses and even swapped them with other fuses of the same rating. It's almost as if the entire power top system just isn't getting any power.

This is very frustrating! Is there anything else I can check?

[BimmerBreaker]

Does it not even pop off the windshield frame? You have checked and double checked the microswitch is okay? The parcel shelf in the trunk is in it's "down position" if the microswitch isnt jumped?

[BimmerM3inGA]

No, it doesn't pop off the windshield frame. There is no reaction at all when the button is pressed.

I removed the microswitch in the trunk and tested it with a multimeter. It is working fine. I also tried to hotwire it, just to make sure that wasn't the problem. Besides, in the past I've tried to lower the top with the trunk expander raised and the light on the console blinks when the button is pressed. There is no light on the console this time.

- - - Updated - - -

I saw a post somewhere (by ShipKiller?) that listed the conditions that must be met for the top to lower (windows lowered, trunk expander lowered, etc). I've spent a half hour looking for it, but can't find it. I should have bookmarked it!

Can I get a link to that list? I just want to check to make sure I'm not overlooking something obvious.

[BimmerBreaker]

I know waht list you are talking about but dont know where it is. To my knowledge windows dont need to be lowered for the top to go down... they will lower themselves automatically to the amount neccessary. I think they only need to be ABLE to go down...

It sounds to me like the motor towards the front of the windshield frame is bad.

[BimmerM3inGA]

I found it!

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...=384884&page=2

Post #13, phew!

I know the windows are supposed to lower automatically, but they aren't moving. So I lowered them myself before trying to lower the top.

I am about to give up on this and either (a) admit defeat and take it to a shop, or (b) tell my wife that she now has a Z4 coupe. I hate (HATE) not being able to solve a problem myself - well, maybe not ENTIRELY by myself (thanks, BFc), but without going to a shop with my tail between my legs.

It seems to me that the entire system is just not getting any power. If there were a fault somewhere (bad microswitch, hall sensor, etc), there would be a warning light. But the entire mechanism just seems dead.

[BimmerBreaker]

Is the switch itself okay? This is a pretty important piece of the puzzle that I dont recall being discussed yet.

I think the windows only pop down a bit once the top starts the process of going down though maybe thats incorrect (My Z4 is at the shop right now so I cant test it).

Is there any kind of initialization process for these? On E36s if you disconnected the battery for awhile or otherwise had a top issue it sometimes had to be reinitialized through a specific procedure in order to allow the motors to relearn everything.

Dont give up yet! Be thankful its stuck in the up position so you can drive the car in the meantime... you dont want to be like me in my E36 M3 with a broken top, top stuck in the DOWN position and me stuck at work when a huge rainstorm rolls through...

[BimmerM3inGA]

Well, I raised the white flag and took the car to the dealer$hip today. I played dumb and did not disclose my attempts at a diagnosis so far. The result was not as conclusive as I hoped for. This is the diagnosis verbatim:

A96 Control module for convertible top module

The following fault code is stored in the fault memory:

Coding data error

Re-encode control module and then clear fault memory. Replace the control module if the fault reoccurs.

Translation: The car isn't talking to the control module for the top. Re-encoding may solve the problem, but isn't guaranteed to work. But that's the first step. If that fails, the cost for them to replace the module is $614.55. There was no mention of a third step or of the motor possibly being the problem.

Keep in mind that I have replaced the control module already, so this tells me that it needs to somehow be encoded. The service adviser told me it would take 4 hours to encode the module and cost $165. Is the encoding something I can do with INPA? Is there a tutorial or DIY somewhere that outlines the steps necessary?

Prior to this car, I had an E36 vert and replaced the fabric top myself. Afterwards, I had to reinitialize it using a specific procedure to synchronize the motors. So I'm familiar with that. But I haven't seen anything about an initialization procedure for the E85. And thankfully, the E85 power top is much simpler than the E36.

FWIW: I was messing around with it the other day and learned how to raise and lower the top manually. So all is not lost, it's just a PITA to do it that way and requires a little more planning.

[BimmerBreaker]

Why dont you install the old already coded-to-your-car control module? Since the new one needs to be recoded, it seems a logical step would be to go back and put the old control module in to avoid having to recode a new one. Then, if the old one shows problems when reinstalled, it probably was the module and recoding the new one will fix it. If the old one shows no problems, then you have avoided the $165 fee to code it and can move to the next step of diagnosis.

[BimmerM3inGA]

UPDATE/CONCLUSION:

I re-encoded the new replacement module and have restored the function of the power top. Yay! So the problem was definitely a faulty control module.

Quick recap: After a trip to the dealer revealed that the new-from-BMW CVM (A96) module had to be re-encoded, I ordered the BM Technic Diagnostic Kit. It includes a USB ODB-II interface and a suite of diagnostic/coding software (Easy DIS, NCS Expert, INPA, TIS, and a few others). This isn't a plug or advertisement for BM Technic - just an explanation of how I solved the problem. Using this system, I was able to re-encode the new module for the power top. It was a matter of a few mouse clicks to encode the module and now my wife is happy because she has a convertible again

[Shipkiller]

Recoding the A96!!! Everything I have read (on the internet), said you do not have to do this to that module. Obviously this was wrong. This is really good to know.

Now I wonder if this recoding would have fixed a very small number of issues I have read about over the years? I do not know, but it is another tool to keep in the troubleshooting bag.

UPDATE/CONCLUSION:

I re-encoded the new replacement module and have restored the function of the power top. Yay! So the problem was definitely a faulty control module.

Quick recap: After a trip to the dealer revealed that the new-from-BMW CVM (A96) module had to be re-encoded, I ordered the BM Technic Diagnostic Kit. It includes a USB ODB-II interface and a suite of diagnostic/coding software (Easy DIS, NCS Expert, INPA, TIS, and a few others). This isn't a plug or advertisement for BM Technic - just an explanation of how I solved the problem. Using this system, I was able to re-encode the new module for the power top. It was a matter of a few mouse clicks to encode the module and now my wife is happy because she has a convertible again

[BimmerM3inGA]

Recoding the A96!!! Everything I have read (on the internet), said you do not have to do this to that module. Obviously this was wrong. This is really good to know.

Now I wonder if this recoding would have fixed a very small number of issues I have read about over the years? I do not know, but it is another tool to keep in the troubleshooting bag.

Don't you know not to believe everything that you read on the ole Intarwebs? It may make a difference whether it's a NEW or SALVAGE module. My module was new - maybe one pulled from another car wouldn't need encoding?

I doubt that re-encoding the original A96 module would have fixed my problem, but it's definitely a worthwhile troubleshooting step.

By the way, did you know that your website is down? I tried to look at the DIY for cleaning the drains, but get an error saying the site is unavailable.