About 2-3 weeks ago my girlfriends 740il died on the side of the highway. We got her car towed home and I immediately did the stomp test. The code that came up was regarding the oxygen sensor, I believe it was P1222 but I don't recall now. This didn't really match the symptoms that the car was showing. The car would not start at all at the time. The car would do one of 2 things, either not start or it would start but when I would go WOT the car would lose power.. and then stall/die. The car would no longer start after this. I lock the car and decide to work on it the following day. The outline below is everything I've done to try to resolve the issue:
- First I did a battery/ECU reset. No more CEL, but the car would still not start at all.
- I tested the voltage to the fuel pump, I had 12.5-12.8 volts at the fuel pump.
- I removed the fuel line to check to see if I was getting fuel, no problem here.
- Removed the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator, no fuel came out of here... so no leaks suspected on the FPR.
- I went to go pull/read the spark plugs and found massive pools of oil. I cleaned it all out, installed new gaskets and grommets, new plugs, cleaned out the boots. At this point the car would start and immediately stall.
- I replaced the fuel filters, no change in symptoms/situation.
- Tested ohms on the crank sensor; it came out to 580-585 ohms if memory serves me. I replaced it anyway with whatever brand I could get shipped next day. The car would start and stay running a bit longer, but still would die.
- Replaced the intake gaskets. No results... a few studs felt would not torque properly. I replaced those studs and torqued to spec... again no change.
- Replaced the CCV on back of the intake manifold. No change in symptoms/results.
- Cleaned ICV, no change in symptoms or results.
- Found a tear/hole in the intake boot... I temporarily patched it, just to see if it would change anything. No change in symptoms or results.
- Pulled Cam position sensor and cleaned it. No change in symptoms or results.
- Tried running with the MAF disconnected, no change in symptoms... car is actually a little harder to start and dies faster.
- I've checked for vacuum leaks using brake cleaner, and propane, but I cannot find any leaks.
- I checked/tested all relevant fuses and relays. Only broken fuse found was for the rear window defroster.
Now, more description of the starting/dying:
- I currently have no codes at all. Frustrating!!
- Car will fire up after a 1-2 sec key turn, but idle rough and die within 5-10 seconds.
- If I try to use the pedal, holding a static position, to rev then the car acts like I'm doing nothing. Actually it seems to just make the car die faster.
- If I feather the throttle then I can usually get the car to 'catch'; but the engine revving seems to occur at a delayed interval from when I am pushing the pedal. Meaning the engine revs only occur in between when I feather the throttle.
- If I rev it well enough then I can hear what sounds to be back firing, through an exhaust leak somewhere.... but I would think that even if this is occurring that the car should at least be able to idle, even if it's a rough/bad idle.
- When performing a cold start the seems to start stronger, relatively that is. The more attempts I make at trying to start the car/keep it idling.. then the weaker the starts/idle gets. It seems to go hand in hand with engine temp.
I plan on checking the fuel pressure tomorrow. I'm also debating whether or not to replace the crank sensor again with a Vemo brand one. I'm suspicious of the replacement part I got... it was a cheap aftermarket brand. I have not done a compression check, but the problem does not appear to be something mechanically wrong with the engine.
Here's a video when I can keep it running by feathering the throttle. You'll hear what sounds like a loud 'click' occassionally... which is actually a pop/backfire sound. The car dies at the end:
Last edited by IcemanBHE; 06-08-2013 at 10:20 PM.
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I posted this on the E32 forum, but the E38 forum get's more traffic and shares the same M60 motor. Thought you guys might be able to help as well.
About 2-3 weeks ago my girlfriends 740il died on the side of the highway. We got her car towed home and I immediately did the stomp test. The code that came up was regarding the oxygen sensor, I believe it was P1222 but I don't recall now. This didn't really match the symptoms that the car was showing. The car would not start at all at the time. The car would do one of 2 things, either not start or it would start but when I would go WOT the car would lose power.. and then stall/die. The car would no longer start after this. I lock the car and decide to work on it the following day. The outline below is everything I've done to try to resolve the issue:
- First I did a battery/ECU reset. No more CEL, but the car would still not start at all.
- I tested the voltage to the fuel pump, I had 12.5-12.8 volts at the fuel pump.
- I removed the fuel line to check to see if I was getting fuel, no problem here.
- Removed the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator, no fuel came out of here... so no leaks suspected on the FPR.
- I went to go pull/read the spark plugs and found massive pools of oil. I cleaned it all out, installed new gaskets and grommets, new plugs, cleaned out the boots. At this point the car would start and immediately stall.
- I replaced the fuel filters, no change in symptoms/situation.
- Tested ohms on the crank sensor; it came out to 580-585 ohms if memory serves me. I replaced it anyway with whatever brand I could get shipped next day. The car would start and stay running a bit longer, but still would die.
- Replaced the intake gaskets. No results... a few studs felt would not torque properly. I replaced those studs and torqued to spec... again no change.
- Replaced the CCV on back of the intake manifold. No change in symptoms/results.
- Cleaned ICV, no change in symptoms or results.
- Found a tear/hole in the intake boot... I temporarily patched it, just to see if it would change anything. No change in symptoms or results.
- Pulled Cam position sensor and cleaned it. No change in symptoms or results.
- Tried running with the MAF disconnected, no change in symptoms... car is actually a little harder to start and dies faster.
- I've checked for vacuum leaks using brake cleaner, and propane, but I cannot find any leaks.
- I checked/tested all relevant fuses and relays, including the main DME and fuel pump relay. Only broken fuse found was for the rear window defroster under the rear seat.
Now, more description of the starting/dying:
- I currently have no codes at all. Frustrating!!
- Car will fire up after a 1-2 sec key turn, but idle rough and die within 5-10 seconds.
- If I try to use the pedal, holding a static position, to rev then the car acts like I'm doing nothing. Actually it seems to just make the car die faster.
- If I feather the throttle then I can usually get the car to 'catch'; but the engine revving seems to occur at a delayed interval from when I am pushing the pedal. Meaning the engine revs only occur in between when I feather the throttle.
- If I rev it well enough then I can hear what sounds to be back firing, through an exhaust leak somewhere.... but I would think that even if this is occurring that the car should at least be able to idle, even if it's a rough/bad idle.
- When performing a cold start the seems to start stronger, relatively that is. The more attempts I make at trying to start the car/keep it idling.. then the weaker the starts/idle gets. It seems to go hand in hand with engine temp.
I plan on checking the fuel pressure tomorrow. I'm suspicious of the replacement crank sensor I got... it was a cheap aftermarket brand, becks/arnley I think.. it was all I could get sent to me "next day" at the time. I'm debating whether or not to replace the crank sensor again with a OEM replacement (12141731887). . I have not done a compression check, but the problem does not appear to be something mechanically wrong with the engine.
Here's a video when I can keep it running by feathering the throttle. You'll hear what sounds like a loud 'click' occassionally... which is actually a pop/backfire sound. The car dies at the end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Aefx7SfwRo
Here's a video that shows the weak start/dying after the car had been forced to run for a bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ1Fsc_Co0Y
And when was the last time your cat been changed?
WAR MACHINE
Forgot to add.
- Idle control valve is working. It will buzz like it should, and resistance measures according to spec on pins 1 and 2, 2 and 3, as well as 1 and 3.
- I tested 3-4 random coil packs and they also were up to spec.. pins 15 and 4 read ~12v on the harness side, measurement on the coil pack showed ~ 0.8 ohm.
- - - Updated - - -
It hasn't been changed, I suppose I assumed they were good since the car only has 82k miles on it.
It's raining at the moment but when it stops I'll disconnect the exhaust, or just remove the O2's, and see if it is able to start. Any thoughts on why the car seems to be able to start/run better (relatively since it still runs like crap and dies) on a cold start vs warm start? Think it's due to fuel flooding the cylinders, or is this a legitimate symptom of something else?
Last edited by daihashi; 06-09-2013 at 02:36 PM.
Forgot to add.
- Idle control valve is working. It will buzz like it should, and resistance measures according to spec on pins 1 and 2, 2 and 3, as well as 1 and 3.
- I tested 3-4 random coil packs and they also were up to spec.. pins 15 and 4 read ~12v on the harness side, measurement on the coil pack showed ~ 0.8 ohm.
Removing the O2 sensor should suffice but I don't think that's your problem. First thing I suggest is get that aftermarket CPS off the car. The ohms on your original seems fine. I am not an M60 guy but take a look at this:
http://www.meeknet.co.uk/e32/Flooded_M60_Start.htm
i'm sure there's plenty of knowledgeable people here but if you don't get an answer quick enough here,try posting this on the E34 subforum. plenty of 540 owners there and more members. it's all good either way.
Very interesting read. Thank you very much Chuck. I'll get an order in for a genuine bmw cps and do some more tests while I'm waiting.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
Bosch only on your electronics. Keep us posted.
Both have been replaced as part of trouble shooting. Using bosch filters, 0 miles on them, arrows are in the right direction.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
1222 is kind of a generic "I'm not sure what's wrong" error on E32 740's that often isn't the Oxygen Sensor.
When was the last time to replaced the other gaskets, like the TB gasket? And have you replaced the OSV and that gasket?
Find a friend with a smoke machine to do a smoke test - the M60 is very sensitive to vacuum leaks. I'd want to rule that out 100% before I started looking all over.
My Current Cars:
E70 2010 X5 4.8i Xdrive Spacegrau
E90 2008 M3 6MT Silverstone II
E34 1992 M5 3.6 J-spec Calypso
E34 1990 535/5 turbo Bronzit
E32 1990 750iL Highline Delphin
E30 1988 325i M54 swapped Schwartz Convertible
No longer with me:
E46 2001 330Ci Titanium Silver
E32 1993 740iL Lazurblau
E34 1992 525iT Kashmirbeige
E34 1990 535/5 Cirrusblau - Former Miller Performance Stage 2 Test Mule Car
E34 1989 525i Cirrusblau - the Slug
E21 1981 320i w/ M20 swap Arktisblau
E21 1979 320i Turmalingrun
so... I put the original crank sensor back in and I followed the instructions on the link that mayorchuck had posted up, and to my amazement I had the car running. Albeit not on it's own power, but I was able to keep rev's up and it sounded like it was firing on most of it's cylinders... when all of a sudden the pedal went limp and lost all feeling of tension. I take apart the lower dash and find that the bowden cable decided to break right at the pedal arm; how lovely! But at least now I have hope. The car sounded strong and actually ran on it's own for about 45 seconds - 1 minute after the cable broke.
Looks like I'll be placing an order for a bowden cable and new intake boot. Is there anything else anyone recommends that I replace "while I'm in the area"?
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I suspected as much about that code. The symptoms experienced seemed to have nothing to do with what you'd expect to see from a bad O2 sensor and seemed more related to vacuum, or timing related in the worst case scenario.
TB gasket I attempted to change while I was doing the ccv, but one of the torx bolts, the one that mounts the bowden cable bracket, stripped out. I tried to turn it with vice grips, jb weld a nut on top of the torx bolt, and a few other tricks to try to get it to back out and have had no success.
When you say OSV, you're referring to the part in the timing case and not the part on the back of the manifold right? I've already replaced the PCV/CCV on the back of the manifold and it has a new gasket and new vac caps. I also have the OSV on hand, I was going to change it out when I did the PCV/CCV (part on the back of the manifold). In the diagram it looked straight forward, but when I went to actually do the job I realized that it was actually inside the timing case and decided to not bother with it if I didn't have to; I hear the OSV doesn't fail too often.
Last edited by daihashi; 06-09-2013 at 06:57 PM.
No, that's what I was referring to - the part at the back of the intake manifold - I thought it was a PCV, but I believe it's actually the Oil Separation Valve. Either way, glad you tackled that. I still suspect vacuum; but tracking down these driveability issues are a royal pain in the rear. Keep us in the loop!
Last edited by shogun; 02-14-2019 at 02:21 AM. Reason: unnessary quotes removed
My Current Cars:
E70 2010 X5 4.8i Xdrive Spacegrau
E90 2008 M3 6MT Silverstone II
E34 1992 M5 3.6 J-spec Calypso
E34 1990 535/5 turbo Bronzit
E32 1990 750iL Highline Delphin
E30 1988 325i M54 swapped Schwartz Convertible
No longer with me:
E46 2001 330Ci Titanium Silver
E32 1993 740iL Lazurblau
E34 1992 525iT Kashmirbeige
E34 1990 535/5 Cirrusblau - Former Miller Performance Stage 2 Test Mule Car
E34 1989 525i Cirrusblau - the Slug
E21 1981 320i w/ M20 swap Arktisblau
E21 1979 320i Turmalingrun
welp, got all my parts in. Got new bowden throttle cable and put it on the car. Also replaced the following:
O-Ring: airbox to MAF
Rubber ring: MAF to intake boot
Rubber ring: Intake Boot to TB
Rubber ring: Intake boot to Idle Control valve
Rubber mount for Idle control valve
New Intake Boot
I also reseated the rubber grommet that goes from the Idle control valve to the Intake. I hooked up the battery charger for about 30 minutes, ran to the parts store and grabbed 4 gauge jumper cables... hooked those up to one of my other cars and set the pedal to stay at about 3k RPM. I cranked the E32 until it started, VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM. Hit redline instantly. I backed off the pedal to bring it to about 5k RPM, and it ran for about 5 minutes at that RPM range and sounded beautiful..... then it stumbled and died while I still had the pedal pressed. I tried to start it again and it would not go, very odd. I'm hoping that for what ever reason the car just did not like sitting at that RPM level while in park for that amount of time... although that shouldn't be the case. I did the stomp test and have the code 1222; but that may be because when I forgot to plug in the MAF when I first turned the car over.
I'm going to go and unplug the battery to reset the ECU and leave the battery on the charger for a while. I'll give it another go in a few hours and see what happens. Either way, I'm definitely further a long than I was before. The old rubber rings were brittle. The new rings and boots were very hard to fit on, so I know there's a very tight seal from the intake box, maf and all the way to the TB and ICV.
edit: also I noticed a lot of smoke coming from the engine bay. It's not like a burning type of smoke; It seemed more like smoke you see when you've been handling an exhaust manifold with your hands and start a car up for the first time, aka burning off the oils from your skin/hands. It bugs me though because I did not touch any exhaust parts, and I can't truly tell what part of the engine the smoke is originating from.
- - - Updated - - -
also just re-read the link that mayorchuck gave and realize I did it wrong. I was supposed to keep the donor car running at 2-3krpm for 10 minutes; not rev @5k RPM in the E32 for 10 minutes. Like stated previously, I'll wait until the battery is charged up again and then give it another go. Pretty sure the problem will be resolved.
- - - Updated - - -
ok, I'm about ready to throw in the towel. Car will turn over pretty good when 100% cold but eventually die. It won't turn over really at all when warm/hot, but if I add some oil to a cylinder or 2 then it will crank up and run strong for about 10-15 seconds and then die. I would say it's low compression but the fact that I can start when cold makes me think otherwise. What the hell is this? So frustrated.
Last edited by daihashi; 06-15-2013 at 02:10 PM.
DME relays could have cracks? Read this one and the comment from Bill R., who is a very experienced repair shop owner and knows our cars very well
http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/5-ser...tml#post344222
Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!
I'll give it a look. If it doesn't start today then I'll be doing a compression test. Unfortunately my air compressor motor went out last week, so I can't do a leak down test.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
- - - Updated - - -
sigh.. still no start. Yesterday it started so strongly and today I can't seem to even get it to catch. I really need a fuel pressure gauge; although my plugs are getting fouled pretty frequently and look wet.... which leads me to believe that fuel is not the problem here.
Can you jumper the DME relay on the E32, similar to how you can jump it on an E28?
- - - Updated - - -
fun, I went to check the DME relay and accidentally hit what I believe to be the fusible link, which is directly above the DME relay (pic below), with a screw driver. It sparked up good. I quickly disconnected the battery (forgot to do it before hand.. my brain is getting fried in this 100 degree heat) and everything looked ok. Now when I go to try to crank the car it's like something is not right. It's just straight cranking, not even trying to start at this stage. I checked voltage to the coil packs and it reads about 11 volts, fuel pump is reading 12 volts. The idle control valve is not buzzing with the key in the ignition on position, I could've sworn it was doing this before. I measured voltage at the coil harness and only see 1.4 volts. I decided to measure voltage at the DME relay and am only seeing 3.24 volts; not sure if this is normal.
I'm not sure if the difference in the way it's cranking now, compared to earlier/yesterday, is just coincidence or if I popped something. I did check the fusible link that is behind the battery and it's still good and reads battery voltage via my multimeter.
pic of the link that I hit with the screw driver:
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9682/odf7.jpg
- - - Updated - - -
Ok, a bit more info. I thought it odd that my car was not trying to catch at all anymore. So I decided to pull the fuel line and hook it up to a catch can. I cranked the car for about 30-40 seconds and went to check the can, no fuel to be found. Then I decided to go and pull the fuel pump relay and jumper pins 87 and 30. I go to crank the car for another 30-40 seconds, still no fuel. I am getting voltage at the pump harness, and my fuel pump fuse is still intact. What would cause the pump to not send any fuel at all, even though there is voltage at the harness and the fuse is still intact? Bear in mind that even as of this morning it was trying to catch to some degree. Is the pump itself toast, and if so then how could I check that? Or did some how hitting that link fry something?
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I decided to try using a relay from the fuse box in place of the DME relay. I took one of the 5 pin unloader relays just to test with. Still no fuel. So I decided to remove the fuel pump relay again and jumper it, still no fuel. Then I decided to jump pins 87/87/30 of the main/DME relay; which is what you do on an E28 (it shares the same relay part number), plugged in the fuel pump relay... still no fuel.
What gives?
- - - Updated - - -
Just measured pin 55 and 27 at the ECU; it shows about ~11 volts. Positive/ground posts in the engine bay read 12.8 volts. So the main relay should be getting power, and it should provide fuel if I jumped the pins, but I'm getting nothing. Not one single drop of delicious, precious gasoline .
Last edited by daihashi; 06-16-2013 at 04:47 PM.
well update to this story. Turned out to be the fuel pump; the engine starts up strong now. However now the car doesn't want to move forward very well. When you put it in drive it feels low on power and is hard to move, but reverse works just fine. Not sure why this occured or what the problem could be. If it's not one thing then it's another with this car.
Is it showing trans program?
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9682/odf7.jpg link no longer good; advertisement
Note from Moderator: imageshack changed since then to paid membership, therefore the pic does not work anymore
Last edited by shogun; 02-13-2019 at 10:27 PM. Reason: unnessary quotes removed
here, 525i-dies-when-hot http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showt...=525i+dies+hot
I would check BOTH fusible links, especially the one which goes to B+/e-box, that wire from the battery with the inline fuse powers the e-box, the other fusible link powers the components under rear seat driver side.
Last edited by shogun; 02-13-2019 at 10:29 PM.
Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!
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