97 1.9 Water Pump conundrum

[Oldmactech]

Son brought me his old z3 making a rattling noise that we quickly diagnosed as a water pump. Heck, that looks easy, leave with me andI'll take care of it. Shaft was moving in and out like the bearing was gone.

Took all the necessary stuff loose, got the bolts out and tapped it with a rubber mallet- no budge. Little harder and switched to a hammer, no budge. Noticing the shaft is even looser after a few taps. Found som M6 bolts and slowly ran then up a little at time. Crack! Followed by a second one, both ears are now useless.

Back to tapping and pulling (occassionally a bit of fluid come out of the bottom but this thing is tight. Few more hammer taps and the fan shaft gives up and comes completely out. Hmm..

Trying everything I can to get it to budge- plumbers wrench to get some twist on it - nothing.
even hit it with a short sledge a time or two. Forgot to say I put WD40 and PB Blaster to it early on.

Got all weekend to mess with it but what looked straight forward has turned into a ham-handed nightmare.

i feel zero give from this thing, anyone got a fresh trick I can try.

thanks.

jb

[z3540i]

Might try running the car for a few min to heat it up...thinking in terms of aluminum expansion and such...other than that i dunno if the tabs are broken...im sure there is somesort of puller tool tho...

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[Oldmactech]

Yep- thinking bout trying that- little nervous about it but as long as I watch the temp gauge should OK, right?

[z3540i]

Yea just run it up to temp and give that a try! Don't overheat it tho

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[gmushial]

What you're likely fighting is/are calcium deposits. The wp is sealed relative to the block by an o-ring... which has leaked over time, and you now have a ring of calcium deposits blocking the passage/extraction of the pump. Generally when one finds one stuck like that, one runs the M6 bolts into the ears GENTLY, an quart-turn at a time max, will rubber malleting the body from ALL sides... have never seen that not work... mumble. Now: how about some vinegar from an eyedropper along the interface btwn the wp and the block and using a gear puller (not against the front of the chain case cover - it's a very thin wall casting - but against some slabs of 3/4" ply or 2x4's to distribute the load) - again, a little of tension, a little more vinegar, a little more time, a little more tension, a little more vinegar, a little more time, etc etc... this could be a six beer job. Short of that you can remove the lower timing case cover (significant work), and punch the pump out from the back side.
good luck - finesse will be the key - greg

ps. remember vinegar will eat aluminum - so, very little along the interface (you don't want to destroy the timing cover), and allow it to wick in... time and tension will be your friends (and maybe a wooden drift and a 2lb sledge on the sides of the pump after you've got it prepped).

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Yea just run it up to temp and give that a try! Don't overheat it tho

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Without waterflow, the uncooled head will warp very very quickly :-( quite possibly long before the timing cover ever warms at all.

[z3540i]

I was thinking with the belt on but I see we're that could have been misleading!

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[gmushial]

Yep- thinking bout trying that- little nervous about it but as long as I watch the temp gauge should OK, right?

NO! The temp gauge won't move - it won't have any water to measure the temp of... when it does (move) it will be measuring the temp of melting aluminum.

Either you're going to get what's left of the pump out by: a) finessing it out with a gear puller, or b) by pulling the front of the engine apart, getting the timing case cover off and working on that from the back side. The puller route, if done slowly, carefully is a 4 hr job, with 3:50 waiting for the vinegar and tension to do their jobs; the front the engine disassembly will keep you buy most of the weekend (if you're lucky).

[Oldmactech]

Thanks for that reminder about the gauge.

I have a pretty hot heat gun/paint remover, if I used that around the pump housing would that help (or make it worse?)

jb

[IgotBMW]

I used a pry bar to get my WP out. Gently and slowly working around the wp.

[gmushial]

I used a pry bar to get my WP out. Gently and slowly working around the wp.

If I understand correctly, he no longer has the shaft in place to pull against... beyond that prying is going if done in excess will screwup the mating surface on the timing case. It's a possible, but finesse is the operative word.

Beyond that, pull the radiator and give yourself some working room... especially if you're going to resort to the puller.

[Oldmactech]

Thanks all-guess I better ice a few down for the chore...
Cold beer and sledge hammer, always a good combination...


JB

[albrazzi]

It might be time for a Radiator and the hoses you can get to anyway, there are lots of small ones under the manifold and behind the head that are a different job altogether. My guess is the Impeller shaft is still there and you can pull or pry from that with the radiator out, maybe a slide hammer carefully on the flange.
If the WP is that hard to pull and you don't know how old the Radiator is do that too, and don't change just the expansion tank thats a waste of time IMO.

[Monolith]

WD-40 sprayed at the waterpump o-ring can work wonders. It will literally pop out.

[gmushial]

WD-40 sprayed at the waterpump o-ring can work wonders. It will literally pop out.

WD-40 is easier to use, and won't eat the aluminum - give it a try... but if it doesn't work, then the vinegar.

[Oldmactech]

Quick update on progress or lack thereof.

Doused with WD40 and let it sit overnight confident that this AM it would slide right out if not already be laying on the shop floor. No dice. So I hit it a few more times with the sledge and it still makes the tight ringing sound of a tight connection. Not a hint of separation.

Removed the radiator and the thermostat cover to get some room and was able to get most of the end of my pry bar in the hole left by the bearing/hub. Got plenty of leverage and figured all I'd have to do was pry a little around the clock dial and it would give up and wander out. Nothing..geez.

Sprayed more WD in the cracks and crevices. Lunch, beer.


Forgot, I tried to drill a pilot hole in the front lip to see if I could insert something to wedge against, my bits wont't go all the way home. Back to the hardware store.

[gmushial]

Sadly I suspect it's going to be a internal gear puller and PBblaster, KnockOff (though generally they don't work on calcium buildups), or vinegar, and time.

[Vintage42]

What you're likely fighting is/are calcium deposits. The wp is sealed relative to the block by an o-ring... which has leaked over time, and you now have a ring of calcium deposits blocking the passage/extraction of the pump....

Where could calcium deposits come from, except using tap water in the cooling system?

[gmushial]

Where could calcium deposits come from, except using tap water in the cooling system?

Exactly: a la a 50-50 mix, anti-freeze and (tap) water.... most people on non-exotics don't bother with distilled water (myself included)... suspect if one asked the OP that would also be the case... maybe not.

[Oldmactech]

Wife gave me a spray bottle of CLR (calcium, lime, rust) to dissolve it-same cautions as vinegar.
Good thing is my chain cover is coated with grease an oil so that might make it less caustic on the metal....
Maybe 4-5 mins, rinse, repeat?

[gmushial]

Wife gave me a spray bottle of CLR (calcium, lime, rust) to dissolve it-same cautions as vinegar.
Good thing is my chain cover is coated with grease an oil so that might make it less caustic on the metal....
Maybe 4-5 mins, rinse, repeat?

Not familiar with CLR - with vinegar the approach is to use an eye dropper and seep one drop at a time into the interface btwn the two parts one is trying to free. But this is with the puller already applying tension to the pump (in this case). What you don't want to have happened though is to eat the bore the pump and o-ring are fitted into - otherwise the new pump + o-ring will never seal and you'll end up replacing the lower/inner timing case assembly - big :-( . So: get the puller in place, pulling against 3/4" ply at least (two 2x4's as long as will fit in there is much better) against the case, and then eyedropper the vinegar into the crack btwn the pump and housing. Remember that the case is thin walled, so the force must be distributed otherwise again you're going to end up with a cracked case, and have to replace it - the edges of the case and right around the pump are the strongest - take a look at realoem to get a sense of where you can apply force and where you can't. But in answer to your question: there is no value in covering the entire area with CLR - the only place it'll make any difference is at the interface btwn the pump and case.... get your puller in place first, get it under tension against the pump, then worry about the CLR/vinegar.

Can you post a pic of what the scene looks like - would be easier to comment?

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This is the pic from realoem - as you can see, the areas btwn the pump area and the edges have nothing behind them - if you pull against them, they'll simply break :-( x1000 .. but the left and right edges, where the bolts are, are stronger; likewise, right up against the pump area - those are the only safe places put apply force... and spread it out with those 2x4s. As you can also see, the top edge is unsupported, ie, no load there.

[Kyle Anderson]

Big ass pair of channel locks and twist it to crack it free?

[Oldmactech]

I really appreciate your detailed reply and explanation. Makes it clear the edges are the only support area. I'm going to try to configure the slide hammer so I can get some pull on it before putting anything caustic in it. I'm still hopeful the WD soak and a good pull will break it loose.
Thanks again.

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Wish my hands were that strong.....but I like the tactic.

[gmushial]

I really appreciate your detailed reply and explanation. Makes it clear the edges are the only support area. I'm going to try to configure the slide hammer so I can get some pull on it before putting anything caustic in it. I'm still hopeful the WD soak and a good pull will break it loose.
Thanks again.

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Wish my hands were that strong.....but I like the tactic.

Slide hammer might not be a bad answer - the shock might be the magic to break it free. Hadn't thought about such, but I like the idea.

----
Actually looking at the pict again: a lot of small hits might be better than one big one, ie, it would suck if one were to pull that part of the housing clean off the block. :-( x1000 ... with a gear puller I don't think that would be possible (he says with his fingers crossed) - especially if one had the 2x4's right up against the pump housing.... a delicate situation - the very best of luck and skill - greg

[Oldmactech]

Getting a beer out of the fridge (3rd) stopped to wield the slide hammer for a second- might be too long for the job. AC condenser in the way...

Sleeping on it.

[gmushial]

How much room do you have? HF has a seal puller with a nice hook at the end and two handles: one for holding, one for hammering (tapping) on. Could even saw the "holding" handle off to buy a couple more inches. Ten inches from tip to back side of first handle; thirteen to the back of the second. Cut the main shaft off just after the first handle; hold the shaft of the puller with some vicegrips (to save the fingers/hands) and tap on the first handle with a 12oz ball peen while moving the hook around the inside lip of the waterpump??

seal puller: http://www.harborfreight.com/seal-puller-91352.html

bearing puller (though may need a smaller version): http://www.harborfreight.com/3-jaw-p...ller-4876.html