Member
BMW CCA Member
Bennyfizzle,
Just some other ideas here to try before you have to dump more money down the drain... While the engine is running, remove the oil cap. Can you hear it clearer or louder? If so, get a really long screwdriver, put it on your thumb and put your thumb to your ear and run it down the row of where the lifters are on the valve cover.. use it like a stethoscope. It will tell you which one..
If not, still use it to check out your chain tensioner/vanos to see if they are making the noise. At least with this method you can at least narrow down what it *might* be before tearing back into that motor for a discovery process.
Yup!
My friend had excess RTV sealant work its way into one of the oil passages, which in turn caused a significant lifter ticking noise...I know excess RTV is not your issue, but perhaps something worked its way into a passage. I can tell you the next steps involved in us confirming the passage was clogged, but I don't think you want to hear it (hint: many zip lock bags with labeled hardware)!
95' M3 - Current
You've got red on you.
I've been finding a lot of old threads mentioning similar noises after hg jobs, many of which lead to improperly torqued cam caps. We'll see when the cover comes off tomorrow!
Member
Hang in there Benny!
I'm going through the same thing right now.
No recent HG change, did that over a year and half ago.
The problem started right on the track, mananaged to limp off.
My M52 sounds like a Cummins diesel.
Wont have time to get to this soon , but now I'm thinking its something to do with the timing chain.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=sRG4M...%3DsRG4MRxo1aE
http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/tech...er-Upgrade.htm
Last edited by Shardik; 05-30-2013 at 07:11 AM.
You've got red on you.
I read through your comments, and I actually used the BMW tool to tension the chain when timing. :/
You've got red on you.
Well I took the valve cover off, the cam caps were all torqued to the proper spec, none of the lifters compress when pressed with a screwdriver while unloaded, which I would think means they're all bled and "good", there doesn't seem to be any anomalies with the chain, none of the cam sprocket/vanos bolts are loose. There's plenty of oil in each cam lobe "pool".
Idk, I'm at a loss as to what it could be. I have an experienced engine builder coming to look at it and probably tell me he can't see anything wrong either tomorrow. He said he's seen/heard of this happening with cracked cam caps? Not sure. I'll continue updating the thread until it's resolved, or until I say screw it and run it until it lets go and I link to an S52 part out thread.
Once he takes a look at it tomorrow, I'll definitely be disconnecting coil packs to see if I can isolate the offending cylinder. I think it has less to do with compression/combustion and more to do with something happening at speed.
Could anyone tell me if they think this is a 360 or 720 sound? Regularly timed with the motor or half-timed? The builder asked me and I wasn't sure how to answer. It seems to be directly timed with the motor.
Last edited by bennyfizzle; 05-30-2013 at 10:07 PM.
Member
I agree with you, its sounds like double mine and I am at 360.
FYI, that wasn't my video, just a reference.
Member
Status please :-)
You've got red on you.
Only development is finding out my cam sprocket tool is two-piece....
...the hard way. That little pin very nearly fell directly into my timing cover when the tool failed as I was attempting to remove the vanos.
Something odd to note is the timing cassette seems to be VERY tight....dunno what that's about, the gear just does not want to come out of the cam and the vanos sprockets do not want to easily turn on the camshafts.
Member
BMW E36 M3 Expert
It's tricky doing diagnosis from a video, but to me: (a) that ticking sounds distinctly metallic, so not exhaust or spark plug leak related, and (b) single rather than multiple cylinder. I suspect another head removal in your future...
Neil
Bear Motorsports
unfortunately.... i agree.... or at a minimum having someone/yourself... take the cams back out and "start from scratch" after you soak the lifters in oil upside down for 24+ hoursOriginally Posted by NeilM
"Torque is like cowbell... you can never have too much." - Michael Cervi
You've got red on you.
Cams are on their way back out already, lifters are all going to get inspected and I'll do a leakdown while they're out.
Where'd the sun go?
Sounds like a dead lifter to me. Problem with "testing" lifters is there's no sure way to confirm if the lifter is working or not out of the vehicle with no oil pressure.
Change the oil hot and look for metal shavings. Oil weight really doesn't effect lifter ticking during summer months. Only winter (less then 50*f) months cause lifter tick during start up.
You've got red on you.
that'll do it! two dead lifters right next to each other...curious as to what caused them both to fail though, seems like a potential oiling issue at that pair of lifters/lobes? I didn't see any discoloration or weird wear in the bores/on the lifters...anybody know the best way to check for a plugged passage? blast some carb cleaner through the closest oil galley in the tray?
Member
I'm curious as to if my car has a dead lifter...
Member
Glad you got tahat figured out and hopefully resolved Benny!
What is this talk about bleeding lifters, etc? I'm about to put mine back in and haven't read anything about them need any sort of work other than taping them to the cam tray so they stay in place when installing them.
I saw Calvin mention something about soaking them for 24hrs upside down in oil?
Andrew Elmore
Bear Motorsports
I always fill them with oil upside down to keep the oil from bleeding out of them.
You've got red on you.
Oil enters from the hole in the side though, no?
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...207&highlight=
Member
Have you guys watched that video on YouTube of the guy that does the full Vanos removal/Cam removal/re-install/Vanos re-install? He uses a mini-vacuum pump to fill the lifters. Looks like it works awesome. It's in the 3rd video: http://www.youtube.com/embed/23jXHhkpV_I
Bear Motorsports
THAT... is probably the best thread I've ever seen on e46fanatics... well done, and I learn something new everyday
"Torque is like cowbell... you can never have too much." - Michael Cervi
Member
Thanks for the share Benny! I think I'll try and give them a clean before putting it all back together, or just throw them in and give the priming procedure a go. I think that'd be a better idea anyway to make sure nothing explodes when I first try and start the car lol.
How can you tell if one of the lifters was dead?
Andrew Elmore
You've got red on you.
Idk, even the collapsed ones felt the same from the top. With the cams out I pressed on them with my finger, and leaned right into it and they all only seemed move when the valve spring started to compress.
With the lifters out, it's pretty obvious if you know what you're looking for (which I didn't, my buddy noticed the two collapsed lifters). You can see the center piston in the two on the right are sunk all the way into the bore, whereas the other 'good ones' are pumped up.
Member
When you reinstalled your cams, did you use any assembly lube on under the cam brackets? I bought some from Bimmerworld, but haven't seen anyone posting about using any. I don't think it would hurt at all even with oil being added prior to starting. Also. did you grease up the VANOS spline prior to reinstalling as well?
Andrew Elmore
Member
I dont know if its correct, but the when I do mine I use assembly lube on all the bearing surfaces (bottom of the cam carrier, and bearing area of the cap) as well as the top and sides of the lifters and the tops of the spring retainers. You dont want to put any along the split line of the cap/cam carrier so wipe an excess.
- - - Updated - - -
Did the 2 compressed lifters come out of the same cylinder pair? Could it just be that the cam lobe was fully loading them and thats why they were compressed? Or do they all normally go back to one natural position when they are out??
You've got red on you.
Yes, #1 intake lifters.
The rest of them look like the lifter furthest to the left in the picture I posted above. Here it is rehosted at a better host for posterity's sake.
I yanked the pistons out of the failed lifters, and the ball valves were basically welded into the body of the check valve, one of them I was able to free up, but it still didn't extend as far as a healthy one should and felt "gritty". The other had no spring action, and I couldn't get it to budge in any way. On a good one the spring could be compressed and would then immediately return smoothly.
Here's a pic from the previously linked thread for reference, I should have taken pics of the failed check valves. Still can, I'll grab some over the weekend.
I'm thinking these got thrown in dry by the machine shop or something and just couldn't get pumped up with oil, or were already too dry/seized.
Last edited by bennyfizzle; 06-07-2013 at 08:33 AM.
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