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Thread: M20 starter into M10?

  1. #51
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    I'm starting to think its not ignition related! I'm no professional and I've only been working on these cars for less than a year, but it sounds like your fuel pump may be kicked. It might be getting too hot once it's running. And eventually not work at all on the next start up. Have you tried kicking it over for a few seconds and restarting it? If it restarts.. Idk I might be right??

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasvegascop View Post
    The resistor is from a junk yard, I tested the resistance and the bottom line voltage. With key in on position the voltage is 8.6 volts....
    I just did another voltage test on mine, with the engine idling, with Chevy ballast resistor.

    Batt voltage: 13.0v
    Ballast in: 11.86v (seems as though I may be loosing a volt here).
    Ballast out: 8.6v

    Ballast ohm reading while disconnected and hot, key off: ~1.9 ohms

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by korangatang View Post
    I'm starting to think its not ignition related! I'm no professional and I've only been working on these cars for less than a year, but it sounds like your fuel pump may be kicked. It might be getting too hot once it's running. And eventually not work at all on the next start up. Have you tried kicking it over for a few seconds and restarting it? If it restarts.. Idk I might be right??
    That's a possibility, but Ski says he looses spark to the plugs, however sparks are good out the coil, which makes sense because of the resistor bypass wire while turning the starter motor.

    I've lost track of this project. I forget if it's got new spark plug wires. I've had two old 'resistor' type plug wires completely fail in one day, at the same time.

    I still say it's safe to bypass the ballast to the battery + for testing purposes for a minute or so. BUT FIRST remove the existing coil + wires before doing this. Have you done this test yet, Ski?
    Last edited by epmedia; 04-15-2015 at 03:58 PM.
    Tbd

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by epmedia View Post
    I just did another voltage test on mine, with the engine idling, with Chevy ballast resistor.

    Batt voltage: 13.0v
    Ballast in: 11.86v (seems as though I may be loosing a volt here).
    Ballast out: 8.6v

    Ballast ohm reading while disconnected and hot, key off: ~1.9 ohms

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's a possibility, but Ski says he looses spark to the plugs, however sparks are good out the coil, which makes sense because of the resistor bypass wire while turning the starter motor.

    I've lost track of this project. I forget if it's got new spark plug wires. I've had two old 'resistor' type plug wires completely fail in one day, at the same time.

    I still say it's safe to bypass the ballast to the battery + for testing purposes for a minute or so. BUT FIRST remove the existing coil + wires before doing this. Have you done this test yet, Ski?
    Hi Robert ...

    I must admit I've been pretty busy with other stuff recently ... so I haven't paid much attention to this thread, but this post did catch my eye.

    I've attached a simple explanation of the why's and wherefores of the points type ignition that might be helpful.

    The main thing I noticed is the resistance of the Chevy Ballast resistor you are using. On the wiring diagram the resistance for the external resistance is 0.9Ω. using a resistor a bit more than double the specified resistance would reduce the current through the coil by about 25%.

    As to the no hot start problem .. I'd have to ask if the capacitor has ever been removed from the distributor at any time? If not ... I'd remove it and clean up the contact surface between it and the distributor body. Providing the capacitor is still ok .. then there is a chance that there is a bad contact there causing a temperature dependent fault.

    Cheers
    Attached Files Attached Files
    hmm .. Wonder what happens if I do this ...

  4. #54
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    excellent, thank you. that is the very information I've been needing all my life.
    Tom D

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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by GDAus View Post
    Hi Robert ...

    I must admit I've been pretty busy with other stuff recently ... so I haven't paid much attention to this thread, but this post did catch my eye.

    I've attached a simple explanation of the why's and wherefores of the points type ignition that might be helpful.

    The main thing I noticed is the resistance of the Chevy Ballast resistor you are using. On the wiring diagram the resistance for the external resistance is 0.9Ω. using a resistor a bit more than double the specified resistance would reduce the current through the coil by about 25%.

    As to the no hot start problem .. I'd have to ask if the capacitor has ever been removed from the distributor at any time? If not ... I'd remove it and clean up the contact surface between it and the distributor body. Providing the capacitor is still ok .. then there is a chance that there is a bad contact there causing a temperature dependent fault.

    Cheers
    Yep, and it works great with non-resistor plug wires

    The first chevy ballast I had was the open type that I removed a few windings from, then my boy burned it up by leaving the ignition on all night

    I gotta figure out why I'm loosing ~1v to the run bus.

    The voltage tests I did was in case Ski wanted to test his voltages in the same manner as I did, I've been concerned he may have picked up a bad ballast.

    Ski says he has a condenser on order, hopefully that will fix it. Good point about checking the condenser ground and wire connection; the ignition system does not function with a bad ground on the condenser. Aside from the points, it's the heart of the system.
    Tbd

  6. #56
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    Ski, what were the ohm readings on that ballast you picked up?

    And if you test voltages like I did in post #52, what are your readings? (hopefully it stays running long enough to do this).

    I'm just being curious...
    Last edited by epmedia; 04-16-2015 at 06:11 PM.
    Tbd

  7. #57
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    I believe he said 8.7 ohm
    Tom D

    77 e21 - m42
    88 e30m3
    04 330 dinan3
    84 r1000rt
    02 r1150rs
    all of them gray
    14 f800gsa - red headed stepchild!

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom D View Post
    I believe he said 8.7 ohm
    .87
    Tom D

    77 e21 - m42
    88 e30m3
    04 330 dinan3
    84 r1000rt
    02 r1150rs
    all of them gray
    14 f800gsa - red headed stepchild!

  9. #59
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    Ok...quick update...

    Got a new condenser. Got it in, while there double checked the points again.....same crap! But, this time, I had my son crank the engine and I connected the timing light just to see if strobbed on all wires....yup!! All four wires strobbed ....so that tells me the plugs are getting juice.

    We also changed the WUR with a known good one.....same problem! Not sure I mentioned, I rebuilt the FD with all new O rings and the metal gasket/plate.....

    I think I got the fuel pump left and the injectors to check/replace??? I just don't know anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The forum kicks kicking me off from receiving updates/emails when anyone chimes in .....it happens if I use the phone or the computer.....it's my luck! I can't be even notified when Tom D has an answer!! WTF

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm slowly thinking it's fuel pressure related???????????????????????? ( I could've swore I wasn't getting spark earlier when trying to start the engine after warm up) I think the car is possessed !!!!!
    My build thread M20 than S50 into 320i: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...0#post23442810

  10. #60
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUOmsGiirTU grounding the plug checking for spark

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by okieflats View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUOmsGiirTU grounding the plug checking for spark
    That's a good vid. Yes, always check for spark at the plugs if needed. Resistor style plug wires can be very deceiving.
    Orange/yellow sparks are not good, just like the publisher stated.

    Ski, do you have a way to test the fuel system pressure if needed?
    Tbd

  12. #62
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    I do have a CIS gauge system testing setup but it appears they didn't include the hollow bolt that will test the main fuel line pressure going in from the FP to the FD.....I think we are just going to tow the car to a euro mech and be done with it.....
    My build thread M20 than S50 into 320i: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...0#post23442810

  13. #63
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    I'm thinking it's fuel related, but not pressure. try jumping the fuel pump relay and see what happens.
    Tom D

    77 e21 - m42
    88 e30m3
    04 330 dinan3
    84 r1000rt
    02 r1150rs
    all of them gray
    14 f800gsa - red headed stepchild!

  14. #64
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    Yeah, I switches couple fuel relays that I got and still same....
    My build thread M20 than S50 into 320i: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...0#post23442810

  15. #65
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    not the same as jumping the relay socket.

    by changing relays you have only confirmed that it's not the relay.

    by jumping the socket you are taking the relay control circuit out of the equation.

    also by manually switching on the pump you know you have fuel delivery if the pump is good, but if it's not then you also know that.
    Tom D

    77 e21 - m42
    88 e30m3
    04 330 dinan3
    84 r1000rt
    02 r1150rs
    all of them gray
    14 f800gsa - red headed stepchild!

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasvegascop View Post
    I do have a CIS gauge system testing setup but it appears they didn't include the hollow bolt that will test the main fuel line pressure going in from the FP to the FD.....I think we are just going to tow the car to a euro mech and be done with it.....
    Did you test spark as per okieflats linked video yet?

    If they are old resistor type plug wires they could all be bad. I had two go bad on me in one day.

    If you have an old fuel pump check valve from an 80-83 OE style pump, you can gut it and test fuel system and rest pressures.

    fuelsystester.jpg

    Have the three pieces of fuel hose on the suction side of the external pump been replaced (connected to the "Y" fitting)?
    Last edited by epmedia; 05-09-2015 at 11:54 PM.
    Tbd

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom D View Post
    not the same as jumping the relay socket.

    by changing relays you have only confirmed that it's not the relay.

    by jumping the socket you are taking the relay control circuit out of the equation.

    also by manually switching on the pump you know you have fuel delivery if the pump is good, but if it's not then you also know that.
    Ahhhhhhh.....Gotcha!!! Great point...I'll jump it tomorrow n see

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by epmedia View Post
    Did you test spark as per okieflats linked video yet?

    If they are old resistor type plug wires they could all be bad. I had two go bad on me in one day.

    If you have an old fuel pump check valve from an 80-83 OE style pump, you can gut it and test fuel system and rest pressures.

    fuelsystester.jpg

    Have the three pieces of fuel hose on the suction side of the external pump been replaced (connected to the "Y" fitting)?
    Plugs n wires are brand spanking new...Hmmmmmm, didn't think about the check valve! I'll check that tomorrow too...I got couple laying around.
    My build thread M20 than S50 into 320i: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...0#post23442810

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasvegascop View Post
    Ahhhhhhh.....Gotcha!!! Great point...I'll jump it tomorrow n see

    - - - Updated - - -



    Plugs n wires are brand spanking new...Hmmmmmm, didn't think about the check valve! I'll check that tomorrow too...I got couple laying around.
    Sweet. Remember to gut the check valve, as in "gut-it-out" with a big pin punch. There's a "ball, spring and seat" that have to come out.
    Last edited by epmedia; 05-10-2015 at 12:37 AM.
    Tbd

  19. #69
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    So I guess I have a suggestion to see if it is getting fuel or not, when you are cranking it and it is not starting do this:

    Pull the "high tension" wire (disconnect the wire from coil to center of distributor.) This ENSURES you have no spark.

    Then crank engine over for a while, stop, and promptly remove a plug. Plug should now be wet with fuel, if fuel is being delivered; since you have disabled spark.

  20. #70
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    I'm sort of being reminded of a vacuum leak that made me have to tweak the fuel mix every cold morning for the engine to start.

    It was that hose on the bottom of the oil dip-stick tube (2.0 liter models), which had a big crack on it. Gotta check the injector seals for vac leaks too.
    Tbd

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by epmedia View Post
    I'm sort of being reminded of a vacuum leak that made me have to tweak the fuel mix every cold morning for the engine to start.

    It was that hose on the bottom of the oil dip-stick tube (2.0 liter models), which had a big crack on it. Gotta check the injector seals for vac leaks too.
    Yeah we replaced most if not all seals and gaskets when the engine was rebuilt last year......

    Soooo last night, due to lack of time and possible trip to Bimmerfest later this month, we decided to tow this thing to a Euro Mech who's gonna charge $108 for a quick diagnostic. I will update this thread along with the other one with the final resolution n fix! Curious as HELL!!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by epmedia View Post
    Sweet. Remember to gut the check valve, as in "gut-it-out" with a big pin punch. There's a "ball, spring and seat" that have to come out.
    Why did ya want me to gut the check valve out? I purchased a brand new CV so in case that's what it is, I included that on the seat of the car along with a brand new fuel filter...you never know?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by okieflats View Post
    So I guess I have a suggestion to see if it is getting fuel or not, when you are cranking it and it is not starting do this:

    Pull the "high tension" wire (disconnect the wire from coil to center of distributor.) This ENSURES you have no spark.

    Then crank engine over for a while, stop, and promptly remove a plug. Plug should now be wet with fuel, if fuel is being delivered; since you have disabled spark.
    Great info and idea! Appreciate it....I'll keep that in mind next time crap happens....
    My build thread M20 than S50 into 320i: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...0#post23442810

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by lasvegascop View Post
    Why did ya want me to gut the check valve out? I purchased a brand new CV so in case that's what it is, I included that on the seat of the car along with a brand new fuel filter...you never know?
    You said your k-jet test kit did not have a fitting to test fuel system pressure. That was just a reminder to 'gut out' one of your spares before using it as a fitting to assist with checking the fuel system and rest pressures.
    Tbd

  23. #73
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    Ahhhhhhh!!!! Yeah that would've worked huh? Dangg it! OK I think Im getting old cause that should've popped up in my head immediately.... Dangg

    Thnx for that tip brother....
    My build thread M20 than S50 into 320i: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...0#post23442810

  24. #74
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    Mr. Cop, do you happen to have a picture of the OEM starter in the car? I'm trying to plug my starter back in and don't have a reference picture. (I know this is a noob move but I didn't take a pic when I removed it.)

  25. #75
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    I checked brother, but this was soooo long ago, I can't even access the car cause my son sold it actually about 6 months ago....I'm sure others will chime in...there has to be an answer for ya somewhere!!!
    My build thread M20 than S50 into 320i: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...0#post23442810

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