M20 starter into M10?

[lasvegascop]

Gotcha....

I went as far as changing the whole distributor I got from a junk yard! It has all the new "Looking" parts in it, including the points and condenser...but I already ordered a new one since non of the regular auto parts store stock it for some strange reason. Also I made 100% sure the rotor sits in the grove...than again, she fires up and runs fine the first time after been sitting for a while, after shut down no go and no juice in the plug wires! the weirdest thing I've ever seen.....

When I tested the leads at the coil I got the 9V and then the normal battery power at cranking....still, I'm thinking just running a separate wire all together with the resistor ballast. In the thread, it was mentioned that it's a possibility that the wire melted inside somewhere and might be touching another wire? Shortening something? So I'll buy a new ballast and run it that way.....As soon as I figure this out, I'll post the answer to this madness....

[epmedia]

It is very possible there's a short inside the harness, where the resistor wire runs through. I think 'ole guy' said his resistor wire looked like it was ready to short onto other wires in the harness. Unfortunately, that harness wrapping is a PITA to cut open all the way down, to next to the starter motor (unless you are good). I'm certain the resistor wire does need to be replaced, even if it's not the entire issue.

Yes, it is odd you get good spark out the ignition coil, but no spark to the spark plug wire, especially with new parts. Are you sure that spark plug wire is good? I suppose you can check the carbon button in the distributor cap too. An odd possibility is that the resistor on the rotor is bad.

Were the new parts replaced before or after the problem?

Hopefully the ignition switch isn't acting up. Mine acts up when I try to start the engine while I'm not sitting in the driver's seat. lol

Edit - remember that you can First remove the wires on the "+" side of the ignition coil. Then, No longer than a minute, jump the coil "+" side directly to battery "+" and try starting the engine. The wires on the "+" side of the ignition coil must be removed so the run bus does not get energized through the resistor wire.

[lasvegascop]

OK.....tested the wires at the coil ....The wire that comes from the starter and it plugs on top of the solenoid horizontally with a spade connector to the pos coil side is good. Shows voltage and I tested it with continuity. The other wire at the pos coil shows no voltage whatsoever .....with th key in on position or in starting position. I presume that's the ballast resistor wire?????? It's all bare so it doesn't have any color...I tried to peel the protective sleeve off but it continues in as bare. Is this normal? Where does this wire come out at? Or where does it go into? What are your recommendations to do next??

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[epmedia]

Hi Ski, see the picture post #11. The other end of the ballast wire is next to the starter motor. You may see a bulge in the harness wrap where it's connected. After you get it unwrapped, you can test for +12v on the green wire that the ballast wire is soldiered to.

The wire is not suppose to be bare, it's falling apart.

[Tom D]

The other wire at the pos coil shows no voltage whatsoever .....with th key in on position or in starting position. I presume that's the ballast resistor wire?????? Where does this wire come out at? Or where does it go into? What are your recommendations to do next??

ski, the ballast wire should show 0.9 ohms of resistance. the ballast is feed by a green wire and it connects directly to the run/start buss bar. to confirm that it's your problem just connect a wire from switched hot to the + side of the coil and start the car? while you don't want to run the engine continuously with battery voltage, if the car doesn't stall after releasing the starter then that's your problem.

[epmedia]

ski, the ballast wire should show 0.9 ohms of resistance. the ballast is feed by a green wire and it connects directly to the run/start buss bar. to confirm that it's your problem just connect a wire from switched hot to the + side of the coil and start the car? while you don't want to run the engine continuously with battery voltage, if the car doesn't stall after releasing the starter then that's your problem.

Yep.

Ski - but first remove the existing wires from the coil "+" side before doing that. This is important in case there's a short (which is now a possibility), and so the run bus does not get energized through that old resistor wire.

And remember to test that green wire (that connects to the resistor wire) Tom mentioned, in case the ignition switch is failing.

[lasvegascop]

I don't think it's the ignition since I temporarily swapped it for testing and it still was doing the same.....

Cool, this weekend as in tomorrow Im gonna take the whole harness out, cut it open and see What's going on inside! I'll take pics and update.

[lasvegascop]

I got the wiring harness out!


I cut most of the nylon protection off


To my surprise, the green wire's skin just turned into dust once you looked at it




Then I tried my best to find the resistor!!!!! None could be found anywhere.....now the harness appears to be oem and it is a 79 model.....so what gives???? All I found is a good quality green wire coming from the fuse box and it's the middle spade directly from the fuse box plug.....than it was kinda, not sure what you call it, fused? (not soldered) to another wire that basically was probably made in chine? Cause up to this point, the green stayed just fine....


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So again...the car starts...runs and after I take my foot off the pedal it dies and doesn't want to fire again. The motor cranks, but it won't start....

I'm running out of ideas! I replaced the bare wire with a nice fresh one and I got me a nice German made ballast resistor out of a Mercedes.....Bosch made and it was connected to a Bosch coil...same principle

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After cranking, I'm getting 8.6 volts to the pos coil and I know the blk wire from the neg coil is fine cause the tach is operating. What am I missing?

[Tom D]

there is no 'resistor' per say, the wire is the resistor.

[lasvegascop]

Does anyone have a wiring diagram for a pre 80 E21????

I have 80-83 already.....

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there is no 'resistor' per say, the wire is the resistor.

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHH......no kidding? And after reading tons n tons of literature you wonder someone would mention that tiny little detail hahahahahah

[Tom D]

[lasvegascop]

Nice Tom...thnx brother sooo the only thing I can think of now is points or condenser?????

[epmedia]

What is that black plastic to the right?

Anyways, those frayed wires looks like where the resistor (ballast) wire is suppose to be soldiered to the green wire (start/run bus).

[lasvegascop]

That's a black zip tie.....haha....didn't want to get my wires tangled.

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Adjusted the points to .016" Everything inside the distributor seems nice, clean and nothing is touching that's not supposed to......



Ballast resistor in place




I checked the ground to the engine and it's perfectly fine...I made it from scratch so its mostly overkill ....good for a tank! So everything is grounded as it's supposed to....

[epmedia]

I see that there's an old style ballast resistor installed with regular 14g wire feeding it. Does it run yet?

[lasvegascop]

No

I'm waiting for a condenser since no one in town has it......

Plus...redefine running???

In the morning, on a new day, she starts runs fine, but once shut down, can't restart......no spark to the plugs......

I replaced everything or checked, I can think of.....condenser has to be it or I'm screwed?!?!?!?!?!?

[epmedia]

No

I'm waiting for a condenser since no one in town has it......

Plus...redefine running???

In the morning, on a new day, she starts runs fine, but once shut down, can't restart......no spark to the plugs......

I replaced everything or checked, I can think of.....condenser has to be it or I'm screwed?!?!?!?!?!?

That's a lot of red GP grease on the points cam.

Just fyi: If any grease gets on the point contacts, that will disrupt spark. A tiny piece of paper can also disrupt spark.

[lasvegascop]

Points are spotless.....I greased the cam with a Q tip....so in the morning she'll fire right up and run just fine.....after that-dead.

[epmedia]

Points are spotless.....I greased the cam with a Q tip....so in the morning she'll fire right up and run just fine.....after that-dead.

That's a new ballast resistor?

Either way, a new condenser is a good next step, because it definitely has to be good for proper spark.

[lasvegascop]

The resistor is from a junk yard, I tested the resistance and the bottom line voltage. With key in on position the voltage is 8.6 volts....

[epmedia]

The resistor is from a junk yard, I tested the resistance and the bottom line voltage. With key in on position the voltage is 8.6 volts....

I don't think that's enough voltage, it may be bad. You should get a new one from the local auto store for a chevy. You probably have to change to spade connectors though. I mention chevy because that's what I'm using and it works good.

[Tom D]

^ I was thinking the same, but not sure? seems to me it's suppose to be 9 vdc.

[epmedia]

^ I was thinking the same, but not sure? seems to me it's suppose to be 9 vdc.

If it's an old ballast, It's probably bad. What kills them is leaving the key on without the engine running (if the points are closed). lol

***
I'm not sure if I read the book specs correctly. It says:

1) minimum 9v while turning the starter motor, on coil terminal 15. This does not make sense because it does not mention the resistor bypass from the starter solenoid.

2) mininum 10.8v off load on coil terminal 15. This does not make sense because it does not specify if the points are open or closed for this test.

There's a write-up in my book explaining the test procedures, but my eyes are having a hard time

***
I just measured voltage coming out of my chevy ballast resistor, while disconnected from the coil to simulate points in open position:

Battery voltage: 11.75
Ballast out voltage: 11.55

[lasvegascop]

If it's an old ballast, It's probably bad. What kills them is leaving the key on without the engine running (if the points are closed). lol

***
I'm not sure if I read the book specs correctly. It says:

1) minimum 9v while turning the starter motor, on coil terminal 15. This does not make sense because it does not mention the resistor bypass from the starter solenoid.

2) mininum 10.8v off load on coil terminal 15. This does not make sense because it does not specify if the points are open or closed for this test.

There's a write-up in my book explaining the test procedures, but my eyes are having a hard time

***
I just measured voltage coming out of my chevy ballast resistor, while disconnected from the coil to simulate points in open position:

Battery voltage: 11.75
Ballast out voltage: 11.55

Yeah, Chevy and Fords have different ohm readings...I already checked into it brother.....

So I just started her a few ago....yup, started just fine! First key turn.....revved it up to 5,500 RPMs a few times.....(She wont run in idle BTW)...a few min later, took the foot off the gas and she died....Tried restarting...NADA! Again n again....will never restart.

As of the moment, I don't have a helper to crank the engine while I check for spark....I just have a feeling I won't have any. After each try of cranking, I can hear the fuel pump buzzing for a second or so after the key is switched to off....

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So yeah, I'm with ya on the voltages....

The red/wht wire from the starter is supplying the 12V plus to the coil for a quicker start up...after that the resistor wire is supposed to take over the power supply and that's supposed to be around 8-9V?

Again, I took off the resistor from an older Mercedes that had Bosch coil, points and condenser.....I'm confident that the resistor is good. Shoot, the car runs as it is hahahahahah I think I rather have it running missing the .5-1 volts than on 12-13 volts straight, ya know?

[epmedia]

Maybe Tom can explain the voltages better than I related to the ballast resistor. It's more of a current reducer than a voltage reducer, voltage read through it is sort of a by-product after going through the resistance. Something like that

I may get a chance later to look at the voltage test procedures, maybe scan to file if things are not too busy here tonight.

You can try using the volt meter on the coil + while starting and running the engine until the engine poops out again. Try to watch if the voltage drops when the engine poops out.

Oh - you're still waiting for the condenser, correct?