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Thread: Koni front inserts, revisited

  1. #51
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    I just took a look at the e34 gland nut I have, and it's pretty thick. I agree a dremel probably won't be strong enough.

    A bimetal hole saw would cut it, but getting it started won't be easy.
    1995 BMW 840Ci
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  2. #52
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    There is an additional side effect from drilling the E34 nut.. Drilling the hole big enough in the gland nut to accommodate the top of the koni insert will destroy for 4 rivets that adhere the E34 top gland ring that is used to tighten the nut. This will most likely separate the ring from the gland nut.

  3. #53
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    That washer is not a structural piece of the gland nut. It's held on with 4 little tack welds. I wouldn't worry about losing it.

    edit: From the looks of it, the purpose of the washer is for removal of the gland nut with a special spanner tool. The washer has 4 holes which no doubt are designed for insertion of pins on a special BMW tool.

    Same idea as the nut that holds the wheel on many peanut grinders. A strap wrench or plumbers wrench would work equally as well to tighten down the nut.
    Last edited by Cefalu; 06-22-2014 at 02:45 PM.
    1995 BMW 840Ci
    1999 Porsche 996 Cabriolet, 6 speed
    1974 VW Westfalia P27 Deluxe camper
    1974 Mercedes 280C

  4. #54
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    Just talked to Koni this morning. They weren't any help with regard to getting a different thickness spacer. Looks like enlarging the center hole on the E34 gland nut is the next course of action.

  5. #55
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    Okay..

    Done..

    What I ended up doing was to cut down the 10mm koni supplied spacer. Fortunately I have a friend who has a metal lathe, so we cut 1.9mm off of the spacer. This allowed me to go from 3 turns of the E34 gland nut to a full 4.5 turns on the gland nut.

    As mentioned earlier, I did not have a drill press, so I drilled the 1 3/8 hole in the bottom of the strut tube by hand. This can be easily accomplished using a 1 1/2 plumbing pipe and a floor flange mounted to a piece of wood. You then invert the strut tube over the pipe and stand on the 2x6 that holds the pipe flange for stability and then drill the hole. I also used a 1 1/2 plumbing pipe to force the two flats alongside the strut tube and then used a slide hammer to remove the pipe.

    Kinda crude, but it got the job done without damaging either myself or the strut tube. FYI.. the Konis cost me right at $300 from Tirerack. I will not be able to comment on the ride characteristics for some time as I'm still in the process of refurbishing the engine.








  6. #56
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    Very Very excellent i bet if you had a complete set lying around you would have no prob moving them!!!
    Adj koni front and rears UMmmmm
    Last edited by smokum; 10-02-2014 at 05:27 PM.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokum View Post
    Very Very excellent i bet if you had a complete set lying around you would have no prob moving them!!!
    Adj koni front and rears UMmmmm
    I worked with Koni looking for a rear shock with the configuration that would work on the E31 chassis and they could not find anything that was close to a direct fit.
    I recommend either the M-Sport or CSi rear shocks depending on the rear spring rate/tune your looking for and then adjust the front Koni to balance the setup.
    However, don't expect the shocks to make-up for a set of springs that are not pitch/bounce balanced like Eibach, H&Rs and several others.

  8. #58
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    Will the m-tech rears work well with stock springs etc?

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe850V12 View Post
    Will the m-tech rears work well with stock springs etc?
    No, The Euro M-Sport rear springs are 30% stiffer than the stock springs and would unbalance the cars bounce/pitch motion centers (could be dangerous in certain dynamic steering maneuvers, with excess oversteer).

    The BMW spring sets (stock, Euro M-Sport & CSi) are balanced so the F/R springs should always be installed as complete Front & Rear sets. So, the Euro M-Sports & CSi if you are upgrading from the stock springs should always be installed on both axles.

    Also, upgrading the swaybars to other than those installed with the BMW spring sets requires you to test the under/oversteer propensity to ensure the car is controllable at the steering/cornering limits.
    So some may say, I don't plan to track my car and I'm only interested in a casual cruiser.
    It's your car, a cautionary however, (I hope I never meet you on the road when you can't control your car at speed) when an emergency situation arises at freeway speeds requiring a panic stop or a panic lane change while cornering you will wish you had tested the under/oversteer limits and did the work to balance the suspension's performance, you so casually modified. After all, you only have your loved ones under your care, with responsibility for others in your path and nobody can predetermine the outcome of an uncontrolled event, accident.

    For me, steering and braking control is everything - I prefer a car that has a balanced suspension (better than stock performance) with the installed upgraded suspension & brake parts as the difference between crashing and driving through the panic/emergency evasion situation does not include a do-over!!
    Last edited by m6bigdog; 06-12-2016 at 03:02 AM.

  10. #60
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    Finished the Koni install on my 840 and it was relatively easy thanks to the previous posts. I didn't drill the bottom hole in the strut, I trimmed exactly 6mm off the bottom of the Koni insert for a perfect fit allowing 50ml of oil in strut per Koni instruction. I also used the existing e31 gland nut by placing it in a drill press and trimming just slightly with a 1 1/2 inch hole saw. It was held by a drill press vise and since the gland nut curves downward in the center the hole seated without a pilot hole. Without the Koni spacer ring the nut secures the top of the insert with plenty of turns. Again thanks to everyone took time to figure this out.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeD97840 View Post
    Finished the Koni install on my 840 and it was relatively easy thanks to the previous posts. I didn't drill the bottom hole in the strut, I trimmed exactly 6mm off the bottom of the Koni insert for a perfect fit allowing 50ml of oil in strut per Koni instruction. I also used the existing e31 gland nut by placing it in a drill press and trimming just slightly with a 1 1/2 inch hole saw. It was held by a drill press vise and since the gland nut curves downward in the center the hole seated without a pilot hole. Without the Koni spacer ring the nut secures the top of the insert with plenty of turns. Again thanks to everyone took time to figure this out.
    Nice feedback.
    I anticipated the Koni strut cartridge could be trimmed at the bottom to fit without drilling out the strut tube bottom and now you can add the cooling oil.
    Can you post images of the modifications?

  12. #62
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    Look at post 35 in this thread. Pic 3 is the original e31 gland nut with its opening expanded to 1.5", Pic 5 is the bottom of the strut, this is where you trim 6mm from. There is a tape measure shown in pic 5, taking off 6mm is ~1/4" of that yellow nub on the bottom. This mod is now so easy it's pretty well within the abilities of most DIY owners.

    The last piece of the puzzle on this setup is whether you really need to slightly expand the inside of the OE BMW strut tube to slide in the Koni cartridge in. It's a very close fit, one of mine didn't need it. That also gives you an idea how much room there is for any oil you put inside, there's 1mm max between the Koni strut and the inside of the OE strut tube. I suspect the Koni cartridge can be pushed in without expanding the inside of the strut tube.
    Last edited by Cefalu; 08-30-2015 at 09:55 AM.
    1995 BMW 840Ci
    1999 Porsche 996 Cabriolet, 6 speed
    1974 VW Westfalia P27 Deluxe camper
    1974 Mercedes 280C

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cefalu View Post
    ... It's a very close fit, one of mine didn't need it... I suspect the Koni cartridge can be pushed in without expanding the inside of the strut tube.
    Sorry, your thinking is internally conflicted.
    You have implied that one of your examples DID need expansion and then conclude the contrary.

    Folks, lets not be using a shock insert as an expansion tool, although the insert would probably win the contest.
    It can not simply be "pushed in". And forcing/hammering did not align with my conservative & methodical shop style.
    I couldn't even bring myself to shave off the end nub, lacking any factory documentation on its exact purpose.
    {ed: I suppose if an ambitious person were to call up Koni, they would easily confirm the function.
    But while on the line ask them, If its so trivial to mod their insert to fit the e31, why doesn't the factory do it and put it in their catalog instead of giving sales away?}

    Oiling the tube shows up in the factory docs and is to (better) conduct heat from the cartridge to rest-of-the-world. Optional, but good to stay with factory methods.

    For the DIY crowd, a most significant issue is spring compression during removal and installation.
    I found the E31 to be a bit of a challenge compared to my other vehicles.
    Have tools, skill and a plan.
    Last edited by Hyper; 08-30-2015 at 08:12 PM.

  14. #64
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    The 1.5" pipe is needed to expand the strut for Koni insert. Use a drilled end cap and slide hammer to retrieve it. Regarding spring compressor go to mwrench.com and see e31 strut work for an alternative to the compressor. Thats what I did, worked great, just go slow you are working with springs.

  15. #65
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    Awesome to see this Thread still alive, no one is adressing the rears tho?
    Also this opens the Gates to other E34 brand options... NO?!

  16. #66
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    I'm going with CSI rears since mtec are not available in US.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokum View Post
    Awesome to see this Thread still alive, no one is adressing the rears tho?
    Also this opens the Gates to other E34 brand options... NO?!
    No! The E34's rear semi-trailing arm suspension is a completely different animal than the E31 5-link suspension.
    E31 & E34 front suspensions are a similar design with the E31 having a longer upper control arm and wider frame members. I even know individuals that have installed the E31 X-frame in the front of their E34/M5. In fact, I have an E31 X-frame just waiting for the time to install it with the next M5 front suspension refurb.

    FWIW, I had a long conversation with the Koni tech rep and they searched through their shock dimensions and didn't find any bolt-on options for the E31 rear suspension.
    That doesn't exclude opting for a custom order from their competition shocks. But then you need some serious money with little performance improvement as a dampener needs to be adequate for the spring rate as excessive only reduces suspension performance.

    I suggest using the OE CSi shocks with M-Sport springs if you prefer more rebound dampening and Euro M-Sport rear shocks (if you can order them) for less rebound stiffness.
    The Koni adjustable front strut strut cartridge can be tuned to match the selected rear rebound dampening.
    The M-sport Spring rates work well with a fresh set of EDC shocks however the CSi springs are a little to stiff for the comfort selection

  18. #68
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    I will be installing the CSI rear shocks this weekend, any suggestions on how to determine the correct adjustment for the Koni's?

  19. #69
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    Mike did you ever figure out the Koni's correct adjustments for CSI rears?

    I guess it would be some trial and error right?


    Quote Originally Posted by MikeD97840 View Post
    I will be installing the CSI rear shocks this weekend, any suggestions on how to determine the correct adjustment for the Koni's?

  20. #70
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    Hey Alex, I turned it all the way to firm then backed it off half a turn. Pushed on all corners to compare firmness, seems about right but haven't driven car much. Just a guess with the old butt meter.

    Mike

  21. #71
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    How-To-Install-Koni-Inserts.

    A detailed account of what's what and how's how.
    It was not known 3 years ago that the Koni mod would become such a topic of conversation.
    So now, following up with details.
    Fortunately for this write-up, the gland nut in this 2nd install was in bad shape, and therefore we get to know how to deal with rusted gland nuts.
    If you like, 70% of this memo is applicable to other branded inserts.


    **** Tower removal *****
    - Jack up vehicle
    - Wheel off, qty 5 (duh), 17mm.
    - Find a place to tie-wrap the caliper. Hint: remove the well liner.
    - Caliper: 2 bolts, 19mm
    - Rotor, 6mm Allen
    - Brake line out of tower holder
    - Sway bar end link, either upper or lower, 17mm + a thin 17 on the inside flats.
    - Pad sensor wire, left side
    - ABS sensor, 5mm allen
    - Top of tower, qty 3 nuts, 13mm
    - Bottom of tower bracket, qty 3 nuts, 19mm + 18" breaker

    Top of tower.
    Qty 3 nuts, 13mm.


    Bottom of tower.
    Qty 3 short bolts, 19mm socket + breaker.
    No need to compress spring.
    Not shown: Caliper removal, qty 2 long bolts, 19mm. Tie-wrap to hang from where ever.
    Not shown: ABS sensor, 5mm allen bolt + wave washer.
    Not shown: Pad sensor, left side, disconnect.


    ******* ON WITH IT ****
    Get yourself a workbench.
    Drill two holes in the corner, bolt down the tower.

    Finished tower shown.


    The bolt size is 12mm, same as a garden variety wheel bolt.


    Compress the spring.
    Shown, a hook and thread rod style compressor.
    It worked for CSI strength springs and I lived just long enough to do this writeup.


    Factory stock tower has a 22mm lock nut at the top, and a 6mm (?) allen to counter rotation.


    An amazing amount of gravel poured out of the top race.
    I'm an stunned that bmw engineering created such an effective delivery system, taking road debris and depositing it into the upper reaches of the tower.
    In the e31, as you steer left/right, the entire tower pivots, and therefore gravel packing the upper ball bearings is widely considered "not great".



    The original bump stop, barely recognizable as such.


    After removing the top race, spring, bump stop and boot, we are faced with the crux of the problem.
    Factory stock consists of a gland nut (left) covered with a cap (right).


    It's contemporary replacement is integrated, one-piece.


    So,
    Get yourself a not-small pipe wrench.
    Shown here, that's actually a 3 ft vanadium cheater strapped on, sufficient for moving a rusted cap, still insufficient for moving a rusted gland nut.
    I actually feared for the integrity of the tube as the mounting bolts were starting tear loose from the plywood workbench.


    The concept here is to rotate the (factory) cap so it no longer aligns with the slots in the gland nut.
    Once rotated (slightly), a screw driver easily leverages off the nut below, forcing the cap off.


    Cap left, nut right.


    If the gland nut is sufficiently rusted, the ultimate recourse is to grind it off.
    An angle grind brings you down to (almost) the threads, then a chisel breaks the band & bond, allowing easy rotation by hand.


    The (Boge) factory insert has a top seal (plate) that might also be rusted in.
    Drill a shallow hole in the perimeter, allowing a punch to rotate the plate, breaking it loose from rust.
    Be prepared (with bucket) for at least some fluid.


    Punch rotates plate, breaking rust bond.


    Top sealing plate coming out.


    Below the top plate, the remaining insert can still get stuck on built up rust.
    Here, a knife cuts down the build up, allowing the insert to be yanked.


    The insert, plus tube contains about 10oz of pentosin-like fluid.


    Same knife was adroit at cleaning up threads.
    The root cause of this rust is a topic in itself, to be followup on this thread.
    Note: all e31's are at risk due to a design flaw.


    ****** Koni specific mod ****
    Flip the tower over and drill a pilot, dead center.


    Get yourself a 1-3/8 core saw with holder.


    Mount the tower upside-down on a drill press stage.
    Holder tool by me, but could be by you given a chunk of 3/4in aluminum.


    The resulting hole is cleaned up with a reverse taper reamer.
    More than clean up, I try to slope the inside surface to match the slope of the insert.


    Back up top, the tube has been crimp slightly by the factory, for reasons unknown, down to about 6 inches below the top.


    A tube expansion tool was created from 1-7/8 steel tube (x12inches), slightly tapered at the end.
    DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT using your insert as an expansion tool.
    It's a crime perpetrated by delinquent morons. And a shame.


    Although you could use a 2-lb hammer...


    ...you could also flip the tower upside-down and slam it down on the concrete.
    Recommend by me, actually.


    Since (in this updated procedure) we have already cored the bottom of the tower, we can skip the slide hammer, and use any rod or broomstick to force out the expansion tool.
    Again, feel free to slam the tower plus rod/broomstick down on concrete.


    Bottom of Koni.
    The knub is one of the factory's method of tailoring the length of the insert to the application.
    However, according to official Koni docs, this insert is at its minimal length as shipped, and any further modification is verboden.
    Wouldn't do us any good anyway. Our method seats the insert way out at the peripheral, independent of this knub.








    A second (Koni) method of adapting the insert is at the top.
    FYI, the original BMW gland nut is just slightly narrower than the Koni insert.
    1.530...


    ...versus 1.490


    You could...
    - shave the diameter of the original gland nut
    - use the updated version (seems to work OK according to my first install)
    - use the adapter ring provided in the Koni kit

    Original gland nut, somehow getting down below the Koni step.


    Koni provides in their install kit, an adapter ring, to be used depending on application.


    However, it you use the Koni adapter ring as is, you are giving up 0.100" or about one thread.


    To proceed, whip out the Baldor and shave the ring from 0.385 down to approx 0.280.


    This method results in the original gland nut grabbing 4.5 to 5 threads, same as the original design with Boge insert.



    ******** Back to general case, with a scattering of Koni-specific *******

    {ed, Dec 2016:
    *** ATTENTION *******
    The above pics show the use of an anti-seize compound due to its corrosion inhibiting properties.
    But we have a conflict, the need to keep the nut secure so that it doesn't back off.
    If the gland nut backs off you will get notified by a rather prominent rattle/knock as the insert body slams up and down in the tube by say even 1mm, as you drive on anything other than a billard table.

    I have not observed an issue with or due to the use of ant-seize, and it may actually inhibit the behaviour by filling the thread voids, but I have observed a loosening on the E34 nut (which has relatively loose threads) after 3 years when no compound was used.

    So the conservative resolution is..
    USE A THREAD LOCK COMPOUND, medium/blue such as Loctite 248.

    ********************
    }


    Yes, do remember to install the boot's lower retainer ring.


    On to the spring, an ultra-gooy anti-squeak compound, also typically used in sway bar installs.


    Bump stop into boot.
    Note: CSI style to match spring conversion that happened at the same time.


    Bottom of the boot is retained by ring shown above.
    The boot plus ring is shoved down into some glazing goo, which is there due to the "another topic" mentioned above.


    Top washer is cleaned of the previous bump stop.


    On this install, the base/stock spring was migrated to CSI, so we remove the compressor from the original and start a new compression on the inbound spring.
    This is done down on the floor, on outdoor carpet, using caution.
    It has to be compressed quite a bit but no one was killed. Move along folks.
    Pic note: reverse the thrd rod so it does protrude towards and conflicting with the bottom perch.


    Instead of the allen socket on the factory original, we have a hex.
    Since this is pre-rounded please use a 6-point (11mm) rather than a 12-point.


    Koni supplies a nut plus a split lock, but I decided to reuse the Boge original.
    Koni torque spec for my choice: 92 ft-lbs.


    Hit the bottom with some paint.


    Done.


    ************
    January 2014


    June 2016.
    My health insurance premiums over the same time span are now looking quite reasonable.
    Last edited by Hyper; 07-12-2017 at 11:16 AM. Reason: Pic link repair, re PB affair

  22. #72
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    Hyper another informative write-up,

    FWIW, I contacted Koni in 2013.
    I asked if they had a shorter cartridge or could shorten 8641 1224SPORT cartridge 1/2".

    A shorter cartridge with the same form-factor was a "NO".

    Below is the balance of the reply from Gordon at ITT Motion Technologies (Koni mother ship):
    The housing on the 8641 1224SPORT has the ability to be shortened. The cost to do so though would be quite high though and likely not worth the added expense (usually about doubles the cost of a new insert)

    Note that if there is clearance at the bottom of the housing (check before doing this), there is a .25" spacer at the bottom of the housing that could be machined or ground off though that will give you some travel back. This does have an effect on the warranty policy though but would get you half of the distance that you're looking for.
    So as you can read Gordon indicated the bottom spacer can be trimmed but with warranty implications, I anticipate inferring, properly done (square with cartridge housing) it would not damage the cartridge.
    This type of cartridge has a foot valve assembly at the bottom of the cartridge, so you should also take care not to allow the spacer to get excessively hot when removing the spacer material and I would make sure the trimmed spacer remains square to the cartridge body and you do not remove more than .25 inch, i.e. do not use a hacksaw.
    Last edited by m6bigdog; 06-12-2016 at 04:08 AM.

  23. #73
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    what dampers are you running on the rear?

  24. #74
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    Oh, come on. You know this (old) topic.
    The intent was to target the M-tech "Low slung" setup.
    It was only because of the cost of the factory front dampers that we detoured into after market up front.
    So, M-tech shocks in the rear, M-tech springs all 'round, CSI bar rear, e32 sport bar front.

  25. #75
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    Bump for newbie's

    FWIW, Hyper's Koni suspension recommendation for non-EDC Sport suspension is the best upgrade I am aware of.

    Euro E31 M-Sport springs is the BMW OE Option Sport Suspension and is a 30% increase in spring rate over the stock E31 suspension and maintains BMW's suspension engineering for Bounce/Pitch Motion.
    Trying to cut cost by second guessing the spring or shock selection will just degrade the suspension performance and comfort.
    Want a sportier/stiffer suspension on an E31? That typically only leads to a car that will be less-comfortable on long trips, rough roads or roadway transitions and will not actually increase cornering performance.
    Even some CSi owners claim their suspension that is 60% stiffer that the stock suspension is too hard.
    Want a super low suspension? You are on your own. IMHO, there isn't enough suspension travel to accomplish that task and maintain ride quality.

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